187 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

Except you don't get the full value back :-/, and once again this was an expectation PGI set for themselves that people would get full c-bill refunds.

Saying you get some back doesn't fix the problem of the value perception being off.

There is no perception problem.

BEFORE:

Sell module, get 1/2 money back

NOW:

Sell module, get 1/2 money back -or- keep module, get free SP, never have to level mechs again!

Now > Before

I see no problem. For once us bittervets need to fall on our swords and be grateful PGI has listened and gone even further than they typically do. They one upped themselves and did better.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 27 April 2017 - 02:27 PM.

[nehebkau]

Dogstar, on 26 April 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

So my car is like ten years old but still in good condition, I thought it would be nice if I could trade it in on a new one but the dealer is only offering half the original price.

Could some of you come along and persuade the dealer to offer the full original price as a trade in please? Because some of you are great at justifying why used goods are still worth as much as they were when new and I really want a shiny new, even better than before, car.

Can someone come with me to the Treasury department? I am trying to sell my 10 gold bars but the government treasury, where I purchased them from, is only offering the discounted, used, gold price for some of the bars and store credit to the government Novelty goods store for others. They haven't changed since I purchased them, I've never used them, and the government is forcing me to sell them to them because of the "no citizen is allowed to have gold bars law". I have never used these things and they are in the original condition and have not been diminished by inflation. Can someone help get the government to give me a fair market value for the gold they are forcing me to sell? I don't need any more hats or t-shirts.

Edited by nehebkau, 27 April 2017 - 02:27 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mister Blastman, on 27 April 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

I see no problem.

Of course you don't, because you are being deliberately obtuse.

Let me put it this way, if people had known that modules would be going away at some point and they would be getting GSP in return (and if they had known about all the rest of this crap), the question to ask is would they have bought modules for the high c-bill costs still? If the answer is no, then you have failed to at least give equal value.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 April 2017 - 02:32 PM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Mister Blastman, on 27 April 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

There is no perception problem.

BEFORE:

Sell module, get 1/2 money back

NOW:

Sell module, get 1/2 money back -or- keep module, get free SP, never have to level mechs again!

Now > Before

I see no problem. For once us bittervets need to fall on our swords and be grateful PGI has listened and gone even further than they typically do. They one upped themselves and did better.

Perception=

Russ Bullock promised that modules would be refunded in full.

PGI released a PTS where modules were refunded in full.

PGI released a tweak to the PTS where modules refunded in full.

PGI releases a PTS#2 Modules not refunded in full.

PGI put forth the expectation for 5 months that modules would be refunded in full.

And now after PGI backpedaled on that, you're acting shocked that the there is backlash in the forums over it and further more denying that there is a perception problem over its merits?

[Heffay]

Jaybles, on 27 April 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

Perception=

Russ Bullock promised that modules would be refunded in full.

PGI released a PTS where modules were refunded in full.

PGI released a tweak to the PTS where modules refunded in full.

PGI releases a PTS#2 Modules not refunded in full.

PGI put forth the expectation for 5 months that modules would be refunded in full.

And now after PGI backpedaled on that, you're acting shocked that the there is backlash in the forums over it and further more denying that there is a perception problem over its merits?

They didn't backpedal.

"Russ Bullock promised that modules would be refunded in full."

Modules bought since that statement are being refunded in full.

[Jables McBarty]

nehebkau, on 27 April 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

Can someone come with me to the Treasury department? I am trying to sell my 10 gold bars but the government treasury, where I purchased them from, is only offering the discounted, used, gold price for some of the bars and store credit to the government Novelty goods store for others. They haven't changed since I purchased them, I've never used them, and the government is forcing me to sell them to them because of the "no citizen is allowed to have gold bars law".

Sorry but you signed away your right to compensation for your "gold bars" when you entered our little country.

Quote

I have never used these things and they are in the original condition and have not been diminished by inflation. Can someone help get the government to give me a fair market value for the gold they are forcing me to sell? I don't need any more hats or t-shirts.

Never used them? You mean you just bought them, put them in your Inventory, and stared at them as they appreciated in value?

Wait, wait, wasn't this covered before? Oh yes...

Prosperity Park, on 26 April 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

You bought modules to improve mech performance. This includes sensor upgrades, weapon mods, etc.


You did not buy them as if they were trade bonds. You did not buy modules for the sake of using them as a C-Bill reservoir for later liquidation. You did not buy them for the sake of laundering Cbills and refusing to equip them on your Mechs.

Face it, if you bought modules, it is because you wanted to spend your Cbills on weapon mods, sensor upgrades, etc. If you didn't want these things, you would not have bought those modules.

In exchange for your modules, you are getting skill points that act as weapon mods, sensor upgrades, etc. You are exchanging upgrades for upgrades.

If you are complaining about this, then you have to openly admit that you bought modules for the sole sake of selling them back later, and *not* to equip them on your Mech to improve performance.

I don't think anyone here is that stupid. So, please, drop the act and stop complaining. I know you are not that dumb, I have faith in you.

[MW222]

Dogstar, on 26 April 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

So my car is like ten years old but still in good condition, I thought it would be nice if I could trade it in on a new one but the dealer is only offering half the original price.

Could some of you come along and persuade the dealer to offer the full original price as a trade in please? Because some of you are great at justifying why used goods are still worth as much as they were when new and I really want a shiny new, even better than before, car.

Go in in the last mouth of the last fiscal quarter, do not deal will a young sales person find the one who's been there the longest they will have already made their sales quote for the year and are fat with bonuses and are more likely to deal to add an extra sale to add to their stats and just politely wear them down and do not be afraid to get up and walk away.

[Nemesis Duck]

Can someone help me clean up all these video game tears?

Russ, give my points to charity. Thanks.

[Mister Blastman]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

Of course you don't, because you are being deliberately obtuse.

Let me put it this way, if people had known that modules would be going away at some point and they would be getting GSP in return (and if they had known about all the rest of this crap), the question to ask is would they have bought modules for the high c-bill costs still? If the answer is no, then you have failed to at least give equal value.

I'm getting more, not less.

My time is worth far more than c-bills. So I don't get all my c-bills back? I get something more valuable in return. I get to buy new chassis and level them instantly without wasting my time suffering with a basic robot.

I can't help it that I played the game intelligently by swapping modules while others did not. They enjoyed the luxury of having those modules and not having to swap them for all the time they used them, now they get half their money back, or turn it into fantastic SP which can save them time.

I see no problem. Instead, I see clarity. I look at the numbers and what we have now is good.

[Ace Selin]

Jaybles, on 26 April 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

You are delusional. PGI is taking 1.3 billion worth of equipment out of my inventory and replacing it with GSP that is useless.... because they are already giving me HSP to master my already mastered mechs in the new ST, not to mention the mounds of XP and GXP I have. I sure as hell am losing out, I'm losing a hell of a lot of time and effort I put into grinding those cbills. I'd be better off if they gave me green Christmas lights instead. At least I could put those on my mechs.

but again, please explain to me the game balance mechanic that is broken by me suddenly having a billion cbills? How does this affect game balance? Please just put forth an argument based on some rational that actually affects game balance.

This!

Telemachus Rheade, on 26 April 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

I personally don't think PGIs balance/creative decisions should be based on "preorders" or "the customers putting their money where their mouth is", but rather based on thoughtful considerations on the fairness, utility, and balance of their features.

1. In terms of fairness, the fairest option available is to conduct refunds in the same currency that was first spent, and ensuring that mechs that are mastered start off mastered when the skill tree rolls out. PGI has only attained half of that goal.

2. In terms of utility, as it has been pointed out in other places too, PGI's new currency really has no real utility for those people who already own 100-200 mastered mechs and several hundred million-billions of cbills worth of modules because they will have more GSP and HSP than they could really spend on mastering mechs. So on the utility front, that's a fail.

3. In terms of balance, refunding cbills would have no real effect on the balance of the game, because this game does not include an in game auction house or anything real in game economy. In terms of clan vs. IS balance, refunds would have no effect. The skill tree effecting clan/IS balance is another issue entirely. In terms of currency refunds, the point of balance is moot.

So please explain to me how the currency refund proposal is actually a good idea in terms of both customer relations and game design?

EDIT: Also, I am sure fairness, balance, and utility aren't the only real game design standards, and others could be accounted for too, but I am unable to justify the refund proposal in any way as a thoughtfully considered proposal.

Edit 2: I keep thinking PGI will get their **** together at some point, but they seem to go out of their way to screw things up. Within one week they managed to implement an event that was ridiculous, a game mode that seems terribly designed, and a proposed refund for the skill tree that is just stupid.

Also agree with this!

vandalhooch, on 26 April 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

We'll you've had your benefit of your "extra" mechs. PGI should confiscate every single one of them that doesn't have a full module set and give you the equivalent GSP for them. Sound like a plan you can get behind?

Would so love to see this, for all the people who say those who spent billions on modules arent getting shafted, because we are.

Edited by Ace Selin, 27 April 2017 - 04:00 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mister Blastman, on 27 April 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

I'm getting more, not less.

FFS, again, YOU feel you are getting more, OTHERS don't. It is as simple as that. Telling them they are wrong is no more ignorant than comp players telling casuals that their experience in solo queue doesn't matter.

Mister Blastman, on 27 April 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

I can't help it that I played the game intelligently by swapping modules while others did not.

This statement right here is you pretty much admitting that the value that is being returned to people with lots of modules isn't equal, by saying that the way you did things is some how more intelligent. Congrats, you are getting more, doesn't invalidate the issues other people have with this refund. At this point you don't seem to really arguing anything, just continually pointing out how you made out better than others.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 April 2017 - 04:03 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

FFS, again, YOU feel you are getting more, OTHERS don't. It is as simple as that. Telling them they are wrong is no more ignorant than comp players telling casuals that their experience in solo queue doesn't matter.


This statement right here is you pretty much admitting that the value that is being returned to people with lots of modules isn't equal, by saying that the way you did things is some how more intelligent. Congrats, you are getting more, doesn't invalidate the issues other people have with this refund. At this point you don't seem to really arguing anything, just continually pointing out how you made out better than others.

I'm the opposite of ignorant, I'm enlightened! Look at the glass of water and tell me what you see?





Is it half full, or is it half empty?

I see that PGI has listened, and made an intelligent compromise. The crux of the problem is we want our robits leveled as before, but some of us spent money to buy lots of modules for whatever reason, and PGIs concern has something to do about the economy err, whatever.

Anyways, in the end, we get our robits as they were before, everyone gets modules for SP and the world doesn't explode in a violent fiery cataclysm caused by a woman somewhere eating naptha soaked pancakes before she goes to the hospital to deliver her child.

Not that that would be terrible to witness, no, it'd be quite comical, actually. Especially if you were outside the room. Imagine the expression on the doctor's face as the hellbaby is squirted into daylight before the boomlight cometh forth.

Utterly glorious.

Everything is fine now. They spent their space bux and got their monies worth. Now they can get half back and still be where they were before while keeping half their money. It's almost like they're keeping their modules for free while enjoying the benefits of a large c-bill pile.

Enlightenment is a wonderful thing.

[nehebkau]

To those saying we are getting more:
I have a Shart-ton of GXP already. I have a metric-ton of mech XP already. I do no need any more XP or XP/SP equivalents. I have unused MC just sitting there. I need C-bills because I have to replace all my engines with LFE's when they come out and I would like to fill my mechs with all the new weapon systems coming out and maybe, fill the the two dozen empty mech-bays I already have with a few new mechs.

So, while you think I am getting more I am actually sitting on 5000 acres of farm land and PGI is offering to give me a few thousand yards more of top-soil... When you have played as many games as I have in as many mechs (last count near 15K games) and you keep the majority of your mechs in battle-ready condition, c-bills are what you want.

Makes me laugh (and not a good joyful laugh) that PGI (Russ) was complaining about cheapskates and yet his new and improved system appears to cater to them.

Edited by nehebkau, 27 April 2017 - 04:59 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

There is no perception problem.

BEFORE:

Sell module, get 1/2 money back

NOW:

Sell module, get 1/2 money back -or- keep module, get free SP, never have to level mechs again!

Now > Before

I see no problem. For once us bittervets need to fall on our swords and be grateful PGI has listened and gone even further than they typically do. They one upped themselves and did better.

um no more like

BEFORE:

could buy module and USE IT FOREVER for as long as the game existed and I continued to play it.

NOW:

CANT USE modules anymore, being forced to sell it for half or trade it for GSP I cant really use.




I didnt buy modules with the intent to sell them. I bought modules with the understanding I could USE them FOREVER. Now I cant use them FOREVER. So I should be fully compensated for the fact I cant use them forever anymore. Because I NEVER wouldve bought so many modules in the first place if I knew I wouldnt be able to use them forever.

Quote

I'm getting more, not less.

My time is worth far more than c-bills. So I don't get all my c-bills back? I get something more valuable in return. I get to buy new chassis and level them instantly without wasting my time suffering with a basic robot.

except if you have to grind out the cbills to buy a ton of new mechs to use that GSP, and as a byproduct of grinding cbills you also get more than enough XP to master those mechs anyway, it entirely defeats the purpose of needing GSP in the first place.

somehow theres a logic disconnect going on in your brain.

cbills > GSP because in order to use GSP you need cbills to buy more mechs anyway.

Edited by Khobai, 27 April 2017 - 05:24 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Khobai, on 27 April 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

I didnt buy modules with the intent to sell them. I bought modules with the intent to USE them. Now I cant USE them. I should be fully compensated for the fact I cant USE them anymore.

But you can use the SP they give back in exchange for the mods to re-skill mechs to have the new equivalent of those mods though right?

[vandalhooch]

Dee Eight, on 27 April 2017 - 10:15 AM, said:

Except that 1.3 billion wasn't real money...it was PGI's virtual game money. Even modules that came as early-adopter rewards or from event prizes or supply caches...again...NEVER were real money. You're mentally assigning fantasy world values to fantasy currencies and then crying about dragons and evil wizards when that fantasy world crumbles.

Because all mechs except heroes, specials and champions eventually become available for purchase for cbills... if they injected 1.3 billion into your account then they'd basically be giving you the means to never buy a mech pack again (or at least not for a couple years), simply by waiting five or six months each time for new mechs to go to cbills, and the same happens for every other player with massive cbill injections.

Ahem . . . mechbays.

Heffay, on 27 April 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

They aren't offering less than face value. You are getting equivalent value. Heck, you're getting EXCESS value, in that you can now convert your hill climb module into a radar dep module.

And each of your mastered mechs get the radar dep module, even though you never actually purchased them. Tell me again how the module owners are being treated the same as you!

[Heffay]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

FFS, again, YOU feel you are getting more, OTHERS don't. It is as simple as that.

Holy ******* ****, you just made a Truthiness argument. "Numbers be damned, I 'feel' like I'm getting screwed!"

[Khobai]

Quote

But you can use the SP they give back in exchange for the mods to re-skill mechs to have the new equivalent of those mods though right?

I cannot. And I already explained why. GSP is useless compensation to me.

All my mechs are already getting 91 historic skill points from being mastered. They dont need any extra GSP to reach mastered status. Its HSP thats going to give me the new equivalent of the old mods, not GSP. GSP is useless to me.

The only way I can possibly spend all that extra GSP is to buy 100+ more mechs. But if I have to grind out the cbills to buy 100+ more mechs, I also get enough XP as a byproduct of grinding cbills, to master those 100 mechs anyway, making having the GSP entirely pointless.

Theres also the 30,000 MC youd have to spend on mechbays to accomodate that many more mechs. Which is also ridiculous.

I swear you people cant think straight. Most of you dont even seem to understand the new skill system or the difference between SP, HSP, and GSP. If you did youd actually get what I was saying.

I understand exactly how the new system works and its a raw deal. Just give us our cbills.

Edited by Khobai, 27 April 2017 - 05:39 PM.

[Heffay]

Khobai, on 27 April 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

The only way I can possibly spend all that extra GSP is to buy 100+ more mechs.

This is an outright lie. Mechs require over 200 points to unlock all the possible skills. 91 is just the most you can use for any one particular configuration.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Heffay, on 27 April 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

Holy ******* ****, you just made a Truthiness argument. "Numbers be damned, I 'feel' like I'm getting screwed!"

What part of "value is subjective" do you not understand? Those numbers change for each person because not everyone values the same things.