145 replies to this topic

[AphexTwin11]

Ruar, on 29 April 2017 - 09:10 PM, said:

I'm a new player to the game. I started playing regularly in December. Since that time I've enjoyed the game and the community as a whole. Much healthier than similar games I've played.

However, the saga of the skill tree has made me think there is some toxicity in this game, but it's from the devs towards the players instead of the other way around.

I don't watch podcasts but I was interested to read about the "cheapskates" comments. From what I understand of this incident Russ said that players who buy only a few modules and then moves those modules to different mechs are cheapskates. Which is an odd way to address your player base for using a system the devs designed. How hard would it have been to reduce module cost and then bind them to whichever mech they were first used on?

Regardless, the point stands that the lead designer? of the game is actively hostile towards his player base for using a system in a way the system was designed.


Then I looked up the "on an island" comment and thought this was also odd way to react. Telling a player their opinion doesn't represent the communities opinion when the devs seem to have no interest in actually listening to the community. In fact it took a personal email from one of the "in" players to actually get some feedback. Massive favoritism towards a few individuals the devs accept as representing the community while actively ignoring the official forums where the community provides feedback.


The forums are another indication of dev toxicity because they are rarely used for any kind of feedback. Twitter and podcasts seem to be more popular while the games official forums are ignored. Odd.


Which leads back to the skill tree testing. The first test had a lot of feedback on the forums that was completely ignored. One of the comments was the overall framework was positively received, a blatant lie if you actually read the threads instead of only the response of the few "in" players.

It took a massive outcry of people willing to leave the game to get a second test. The feedback from this second test was partially listened to about refunds, but again ignored the responses about the skill tree design.

The third test also showed a distinct lack of heed given to the feedback about the skill tree design.

From the very start of the skill tree testing the bulk of forum users who responded about the skill tree have indicated it is too complex, doesn't prevent min/maxing, doesn't solve boating, and overall detracts from the game as a whole. Multiple solutions were provided that would accomplish all of the stated goals better than what was tested.

And yet the devs keep glossing over this feedback as if it never happened.


Which leads me to the conclusion that the most toxic part of this game is actually the way the devs treat their players. Something unique to me because all of the other games I play it's the players toward each other or the players towards the devs.


So now I'm sitting here wondering how much more I should invest into this game. Do I keep giving money to people who see the player base as annoyances except for a select few? Do I write off MW5 since it's being built by the same company?

I guess the real question is what makes the devs so hostile towards the players? Why do they ignore the forums?

Like I said at the top, I'm new here, does anyone have any insight into this?

"I funded a game years ago and only sat down to play it recently. I don't like it, so that must mean the devs are meany faces"

COOL STORY

[Generic Internetter]

Willard Phule, on 01 May 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

Thing is, PGI's business model has absolutely nothing to do with retention. They know they've got a crap product that can't stand the test of time....even a week or two. It's all about luring in a crop of unsuspecting potatoes with disposable income, fleecing them for what they can, then ignoring them so they can focus on the next crop.

So most of us have only been here around two weeks? No.
The model you described fits Call of Duty and The Sims, but not MWO.

PGI knows the playerbase are in large part here for the BattleTech/MechWarrior franchise, and MWO is simply a manifestation of the franchise we adore. PGI knows that, over time, we will eventually spend more and more money - More than we would spend on any one-off title.

In the industry, these kind of player are referred to as a "Whale". Some MWO players have spent several hundred US dollars on the game so far, and continue to buy the occasional mech pack after mech pack. Some even buy every mech pack. The logic is that a mech pack lasts forever, for the same price of a fancy restaurant meal or a couple of rounds of drinks.

The business genius is that PGI know that as long as they provide and maintain a platform for people to play on (IE: Quick Match and Faction Play) then the same people will come back every month or so to buy into the new mech packs, and the novelty will be to use new mechs in the same old game modes and maps.

One of the most common criticisms of PGI's handling of MWO is that they seem to follow this business practice relentlessly, always putting the emphasis on new mechs rather than enriching the game itself. That being said, they have made some (slow) progress in improving the other elements of the game. Slowly.

Unfortunately, PGI own the Battletech franchise, so if you do find an alternative elsewhere, it wont be MechWarrior-related.

PS: There is nothing out there quite like MWO. I've looked.

Edited by Generic Internetter, 01 May 2017 - 08:22 AM.

[Dee Eight]

Zacharias McLeod, on 30 April 2017 - 02:52 AM, said:

And PGI got banned from Redit.

Oh wow....PGI got banned... from a place where you still find links to / discussions groups of ********** with ease. Yeah that really doesn't matter at all to me that PGI isn't allowed on reddit....

edit : apparently the legal word for an activity involving animals and people is a censored word here

Edited by Dee Eight, 01 May 2017 - 08:35 AM.

[Erronius]

Cathy, on 01 May 2017 - 05:08 AM, said:

A communities Attitude towards the game and it's creators, comes from the top and goes downwards.

You only have to look at H.B.S's forums and how different they are and how nice people are to realise that P.G.I are a total disgrace, to it's customers.

I can make this comparison quite safely, because the people on the H.B.S battle tech forums and the people here are virtually the SAME people.

In my opinion, there's a big difference between communities for persistent online games and communities for those that aren't. Non-persistent games only have to manage player expectations up to a point...and the HBS BT game isn't even released yet. As such, the proverbial rubber hasn't hit the road yet. And they'll never really reach the point that persistent online games do, where dev cycles and content churn runs up against player burnout and expectations vs reality.

Ergo, even with the same members, you're not going to see the same behavior. But if HBS were to put out a persistent online game? I guarantee that it would only be a matter of time before the Bittervets came out in force.

[MechWarrior5152251]

I am a Cheapskate and Proud!

[JediPanther]

I say to the op keep your money or spend it elsewhere on far better products. I've noticed pgi constantly re-treading past behavior with new game modes,constant streams of mech packs and sub par map and game modes. the last time i used real money on mwo was when the clan jenner came out. Last year's mech con was the last of it for me as far as spending money on mwo.

Instead of investing their limited time and resources to mwo they choose to do a scripted video in unreal for mw5. Until i see a physical box of mw5 in walmart or target at retail price for a full game I believe mw5 to be just more of a failure to expand pgi's game portfolio at the mwo players' expense just as transverse was. We waited litterly years for community warfare to get their pos vision of it. Years to fix a simple geometry problem with the catapult A1's vcr ears. now pgi is finally editing the current weapons to make new weapons or at least claim they are. How many years will that take? 90 days? soon? We've heard it all before from pgi.

[Alistair Winter]

The OP reads like it was written with the alt account of some Reddit MWO veteran rather than a new player, but if this isn't some bittervet conspiracy, then kudos on doing some good research and being able to navigate through 5 years of MWO history after a length absence.

Your summary of the situation is pretty spot-on, although I personally think the cheapskate-gate was vastly exaggerated and misinterpreted. I am not in the habit of making apologies for PGI, but that was just a comment about how people manage their c-bills, with zero implications about their personality or actual purchase history. When people make a big fuss about something so trivial, it makes the real arguments against PGI seem less significant and it ultimately makes the players seem less rational and understanding.

But when it comes to PGI's fundamental ability to cooperate with their players, you're right. It's pretty damn awful.

[Ruar]

AphexTwin11, on 01 May 2017 - 08:11 AM, said:

"I funded a game years ago and only sat down to play it recently. I don't like it, so that must mean the devs are meany faces"

COOL STORY

Who said I don't like the game?

I'm just trying to figure out if I keep putting money into the game, and based on the responses and advice from this thread I think it's time to cancel my orders and just play for free.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Ruar, on 01 May 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

Who said I don't like the game?

I'm just trying to figure out if I keep putting money into the game, and based on the responses and advice from this thread I think it's time to cancel my orders and just play for free.

Don't bother. The PGI order of white knights are too deep into the sunk costs fallacy to ever give you a reasonable discussion.

[oldradagast]

Alexander of Macedon, on 01 May 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

Don't bother. The PGI order of white knights are too deep into the sunk costs fallacy to ever give you a reasonable discussion.

True. Although given the staggering amount of money some of them have poured into this game (many hundreds into the thousands of dollars), I can't really fault them for their own stubborn need to keep playing, no matter how badly the game sinks into the mire. I just wish they'd stop attacking everyone else who dares do anything from post facts to a differing opinion.

As for PGI, I'll never understand them. They seem to make decisions at random, hold the community in contempt, have no real love of the IP, and only open their mouths to change feet. Were it not for the whales who have dumped thousands into this game, it would have died years ago since it's fueled purely by nostalgia at this point... PGI also doesn't understand advertising or how to make a game friendly to new players and draw them in. Sigh...

[DAYLEET]

Alistair Winter, on 01 May 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

the cheapskate-gate was vastly exaggerated and misinterpreted.

I was also listening to it and you are not wrong but... He was going to make a system disregarding the previous system and most were about to lose everything. He opened the door with that comment and people rushed in. It was a good thing. Sometimes they are completly disconnected with their own game/playerbase. "Hey lets wipe out years of progress of most people, they will obviously not care" Im only surprised that it took so long for people to wake up and it took streamers to wake them...

The whole thing was so badly manage that id believe it was all misdirection and deliberate timewaste.

[Mcgral18]

Belacose, on 01 May 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

A few days ago I recorded a match where you were losing it. Mini tantrum calling your teammates potatoes and such.

I could upload it to YouTube if you'd like?

Only Potato?


You know not the sea of salt
GGclose

[Khobai]

I call my team potatos even if they win

[Belacose]

Mcgral18, on 01 May 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

Only Potato?


You know not the sea of salt
GGclose

Was pointing fingers blaming everyone else for the loss in a rather childish manner.

Not that big of a deal. People get frustrated probably having a bad day. Though it's not his first time. He sticks out too when he does simply because I always recognize him from the forums and as a moderator at one time.

[sycocys]

Russ is still doing podcasts drunk?

Had a pretty good chuckle looking over the new skill tree concept a month or two ago and trying to figure out how they could imagine it was going to make the game better. It looked like the mess from Path of Exiles or one of those new Final Fantasy games but without any coherent thought to the effect it would actually have when the players started messing with it, much less understanding of how the game was played.

At some point you either accept Russ's d-baggery and Paul's lack of understanding of the game and succumb to the fact that these guys somehow secured the rights to the Mechwarrior franchise or you just stop playing and find another game that provides more depth. To me the devs became toolboxes leading up to closed beta/live launch and haven't really done anything but continue to degrade their image and customer relations since that point.

It is what it is they latched onto a cash cow of a franchise with a base population that has plenty of expendable income and they are going to milk that cow dry so they can cash out and do something else.
Kind of been the feeling that they didn't want much to do with this game at all since it was nearing the end of closed beta - like they expected the publisher to take over development or some such thing - and are upset with the founders and core playerbase for not letting them off the hook for going live with an undeveloped game.

Edited by sycocys, 01 May 2017 - 04:33 PM.

[Ruar]

Decided I will keep playing, but I'm done spending money. Seeing if I can get a refund on my pre-orders and if not oh well. I honestly don't mind spending money on BattleTech items, I've been collecting since I was a kid, but I don't feel comfortable rewarding the behavior I've seen from Russ.

Thank you all for the discussion and I appreciate the feedback.

[mike29tw]

Belacose, on 01 May 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

Just find it a bit ironic and hypocritical.

Not the first time I've witnessed his toxicity towards players in game. In other words, he's slinging stones from a glass house which I find to be a bit humorous.



Riling up a few of his teammates - It was a bit beyond being 'gentle'. lol

Not hypocritical at all. Derek is not an owner of the business, nor are the people he called potatoes his customers. Furthermore, his teammates being potatoes aren't direct result of his decisions.

They're completely different situations. You're just trying to shame someone who you disagree with.

Edited by mike29tw, 01 May 2017 - 05:01 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Had a pretty good chuckle looking over the new skill tree concept a month or two ago and trying to figure out how they could imagine it was going to make the game better. It looked like the mess from Path of Exiles or one of those new Final Fantasy games but without any coherent thought to the effect it would actually have when the players started messing with it, much less understanding of how the game was played.

what I find hilarious is that they have six different XP types. when they should only have one.

[Druarc]

The fact they never put an unequivocal all modules button says they wanted you to buy more. I know more than once I gave up looking for 1 and just bought another.

[Khobai]

Quote

The fact they never put an unequivocal all modules button says they wanted you to buy more. I know more than once I gave up looking for 1 and just bought another.

and also theyre punishing everyone who bought too many modules by replacing them with more GSP than you can possibly spend in a lifetime.