330 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

Those clan medium 'top performers' are both doing poptart builds. Either one of them in a brawl will flat out lose to an equivalent IS brawling medium. They are performing well because they snipe with those PPCs instead of getting ravaged in the <400m range.

...really bro?

How about an SRM36+A Huntsman
SPL Nova
That Nova is one of the best brawlers in the game, and while the Huntsman isn't bad, it's not durable.


It's a lie that the Sphere has better brawlers (perhaps the Atlas S), because cSPLs and cSRMs are excellent at brawling, and they have no downside to their cXL (unlike the Sphere, which means either similar speed and firepower, at insta-death ST, or slow as balls)

[Zergling]

Dakota1000, on 10 May 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

The closest thing to IS LPL on the clan side would be the CERML or the CMPL, both of which are outranged by the LPL and both of which are much less damage efficient.

Uh, even with a 10% range quirk, the IS Large Pulse isn't going to be outranging the Clan ER Medium.

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

The engine advantage is offset by geometry and durability quirks.

It really doesn't; IS mechs with XL engines take far less damage to kill on average than Clan XL mechs.

Kubernetes, on 10 May 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

Don't care. That's more heat available for my LPLs. MPLs get added to the mix around 300m. At 438m the only Clan loadout that should be beating you in a trade is PPFLD, and if that's what they're carrying you should getting in even closer.

Yeah no; triple IS Large Pulse is absolutely going to be beaten by a Clan mech with 2x Large Pulse and 6x ER Medium at 438 meter range.

Why? Because in the 0.67 seconds of firing time the IS Large Pulses have, the Clan mech can deliver 40 damage.
With IS mechs with XL engines requiring substantially less damage to kill than a Clan mech, the IS mech is going to lose, and badly.

And realistically, the exposure time of the IS mech is going to be much longer than 0.67 seconds, so the damage difference is going to be larger.


Even a wubmaster with 5x Large Pulse isn't going to be doing more damage than it takes in an exchange, and it has a minimum exposure time of 1.17 seconds, slightly greater than the Clan laser vomit of 1.15 seconds.

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

You can't compare them weapon for weapon when they can fire 3 without ghost heat vs 2. Who cares if there's a tonnage imbalance if you win every single trade. "having similar damage/tick" equals squat when you get 50% more weapon before ghost heat.

All that and I say laser balance is FINE. You are trying to twist the numbers by looking at the invidual weapon stats, which would make sense if it wasn't for ghost heat.

You're forgetting that Clan laser vomit stacks on far more weapons than just a pair of large pulse laser.

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

Even with the massive benefits, it's bad because it weighs more? What do heat sinks matter if people are trading from cover?

Heat sinks matter a heap, because being able to poke frequently is required for control of the battle.
A mech that has to spent considerable amounts of time cooling off gives the enemy plenty of time to push or reposition.

Further, more heat sinks count much more in a non-poking fight, where sustained DPS is important.

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

The clan mech more than likely brought other weapons to make up for the firepower difference and the tonnage it saved........but that damage is still going to spread a lot more.

No, it's not going to spread damage around more; in the same time triple large pulse delivers 33 damage, the Clan mech can deliver 40.

The Clan mech is going to be heating up more however, which is a disadvantage as I described above, but it is going to be doing more damage in exchanges, versus more fragile enemy mechs (thanks to IS XL).

Templar Dane, on 10 May 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

And in cased of the battlemaster with it's 5x ISLPL how the hell does one even attempt to do even or superior trades with that?

5x IS Large Pulse = 55 damage with 1.17 second firing time
2x Clan Large Pulse and 6x Clan ER Medium = 68 damage with 1.15 second firing time

High mounts is the primary reason the wubmaster is competitive, not the IS LPL. If it can abuse the high mounts effectively, it can be superior to a Marauder IIC, but if it can't, it is definitely inferior.

Edited by Zergling, 11 May 2017 - 09:39 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Zergling, on 10 May 2017 - 09:46 PM, said:

Uh, even with a 10% range quirk, the IS Large Pulse isn't going to be outranging the Clan ER Medium.





It really doesn't; IS mechs with XL engines take far less damage to kill on average than Clan XL mechs.





Yeah no; triple IS Large Pulse is absolutely going to be beaten by a Clan mech with 2x Large Pulse and 6x ER Medium at 438 meter range.

Why? Because in the 0.67 seconds of firing time the IS Large Pulses have, the Clan mech can deliver 40 damage.
With IS mechs with XL engines requiring substantially less damage to kill than a Clan mech, the IS mech is going to lose, and badly.

And realistically, the exposure time of the IS mech is going to be much longer than 0.67 seconds, so the damage difference is going to be larger.


Even a wubmaster with 5x Large Pulse isn't going to be doing more damage than it takes in an exchange, and it has a minimum exposure time of 1.17 seconds, slightly greater than the Clan laser vomit of 1.15 seconds.





You're forgetting that Clan laser vomit stacks on far more weapons than just a pair of large pulse laser.





Heat sinks matter a heap, because being able to poke frequently is required for control of the battle.
A mech that has to spent considerable amounts of time cooling off gives the enemy plenty of time to push or reposition.

Further, more heat sinks count much more in a non-poking fight, where sustained DPS is important.





No, it's not going to spread damage around more; in the same time triple large pulse delivers 33 damage, the Clan mech can deliver 40.

The Clan mech is going to be heating up more however, which is a disadvantage as I described above, but it is going to be doing more damage in exchanges, versus more fragile enemy mechs (thanks to IS XL).





5x IS Large Pulse = 45 damage with 1.17 second firing time
2x Clan Large Pulse and 6x Clan ER Medium = 68 damage with 1.15 second firing time

High mounts is the primary reason the wubmaster is competitive, not the IS LPL. If it can abuse the high mounts effectively, it can be superior to a Marauder IIC, but if it can't, it is definitely inferior.

but don't forget to count in the heat, CERML are sitll very heat inefficient, even the CLPL is more heatefficient.

[Zergling]

Lily from animove, on 11 May 2017 - 02:34 AM, said:

but don't forget to count in the heat, CERML are sitll very heat inefficient, even the CLPL is more heatefficient.

I just ran the numbers for a 5x Large Pulse Laser Battlemaster 2C versus a 2x Large Pulse + 6x ER Medium Marauder IIC.

BLR-2C:
401 meter effective range
55 damage alpha
14.03 maximum DPS
6.05 sustained DPS
43.15% heat efficiency

MADIIC:
405 meter effective range
68 damage alpha
16.07 maximum DPS
6.97 sustained DPS
43.39% heat efficiency

The minimum damage to kill the BLR-2C is 124 (via side torso XL engine destruction) versus 160 for the MADIIC. This means the MADIIC can sustain a minimum of 29% more damage than the BLR before being killed.

Edited by Zergling, 11 May 2017 - 09:58 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Lily from animove, on 11 May 2017 - 02:34 AM, said:

but don't forget to count in the heat, CERML are sitll very heat inefficient, even the CLPL is more heatefficient.

1.25 VS 1.16 Dam/heat

Not exactly a landslide victory
Of course, MLs should be at 3 heat, with 1.667 H/s
A much more favourable number

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Zergling, on 10 May 2017 - 09:46 PM, said:

Uh, even with a 10% range quirk, the IS Large Pulse isn't going to be outranging the Clan ER Medium.

I was talking max range for outranging, since otherwise they are still doing damage to you. 730m(803 with quirks, 876 quirks and module) for LPL vs 688m(756.8 with module) ERML.

Zergling, on 10 May 2017 - 09:46 PM, said:

5x IS Large Pulse = 45 damage with 1.17 second firing time
2x Clan Large Pulse and 6x Clan ER Medium = 68 damage with 1.15 second firing time

High mounts is the primary reason the wubmaster is competitive, not the IS LPL. If it can abuse the high mounts effectively, it can be superior to a Marauder IIC, but if it can't, it is definitely inferior.

5 IS LPL is 55 damage.

Even if you alpha strike all 5 of them at once you'd generate 56 heat, which is the same as what the Clan mech with 2 LPL and 6 ERML would generate. You'd deal 13 less damage but keep the firing duration at about half for those situations in which you need it. In situations in which you need to control a position you can fire without breaking ghostheat when enemies aren't looking in your direction ready to counter poke.

[Templar Dane]

Zergling, on 11 May 2017 - 02:47 AM, said:

The minimum damage to kill the BLR-2C is 124 (via side torso XL engine destruction) versus 160 for the MADIIC. This means the MADIIC can sustain a minimum of 29% more damage than the BLR before being killed.

And the battlemaster is about twice as efficient at putting damage into a component. The MADIIC also has much lower/spread hardpoints.



But yeah the battlemaster is obviously inferior because of clan xl/sinks.

edit

Oh and you forgot the 10% range quirk on the 2C. 401.5m ISLPL.

Edited by Templar Dane, 11 May 2017 - 09:48 AM.

[Zergling]

Dakota1000, on 11 May 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

I was talking max range for outranging, since otherwise they are still doing damage to you. 730m(803 with quirks, 876 quirks and module) for LPL vs 688m(756.8 with module) ERML.

At 688 meters range, the unquirked Large Pulse is doing just 1.26 damage per shot. With a 10% range quirk, it is still only doing 3.15 damage at 688 meters range.
And at that range, the Clan Large Pulse Laser is doing 8.23 damage.

Even a 5x Large Pulse BLR-2C is going to be (slightly) outgunned by a Clan mech with 2x Large Pulse at 688 meters.

Dakota1000, on 11 May 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

5 IS LPL is 55 damage.

Whoops my bad.

Dakota1000, on 11 May 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

Even if you alpha strike all 5 of them at once you'd generate 56 heat, which is the same as what the Clan mech with 2 LPL and 6 ERML would generate. You'd deal 13 less damage but keep the firing duration at about half for those situations in which you need it. In situations in which you need to control a position you can fire without breaking ghostheat when enemies aren't looking in your direction ready to counter poke.

Sure, the BLR-2C can do that; 56 heat only brings it up to 80.58% heat, but it is going to take 14.54 heat seconds to dissipate that heat, versus the 9.74 seconds a Marauder IIC takes to dissipate its heat from a 68 damage alpha.

If the BLR can maintain those alpha pokes, while retreating to cool off without being overrun by an enemy push, it certainly can beat the Marauder IIC in a poke fight.
It won't be able to put as much pressure on an enemy push with that kind of heat load though, so it will be over-run more easily than the Marauder IIC.

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

And the battlemaster is about twice as efficient at putting damage into a component. The MADIIC also has much lower/spread hardpoints.






But yeah the battlemaster is obviously inferior because of clan xl/sinks.

I suggest cutting back on the passive-aggression, because you might have then noticed that the Battlemaster's superior high mounts have already been acknowledged.

Your images also demonstrate just how superior the hitboxes of the Marauder IIC are over the Battlemaster. Can't forget to mention that, can we?

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

edit

Oh and you forgot the 10% range quirk on the 2C. 401.5m ISLPL.

Whoopie doo, it is still outranged by Clan laser vomit.


Eg:

At 400 meters, the BLR-2C is doing 55 damage versus the MADIIC at 68 damage; 23.64% advantage to the MADIIC.
At 450 meters, the BLR-2C is doing 48.36 damage versus the MADIIC doing 61.32 damage; 26.80% advantage to the MADIIC.
At 500 meters, the BLR-2C is doing 41.51 damage versus the MADIIC doing 53.90 damage; 29.85% advantage to the MADIIC.
At 550 meters, the BLR-2C is doing 34.66 damage versus the MADIIC doing 46.48 damage; 34.10% advantage to the MADIIC.
At 600 meters, the BLR-2C is doing 27.80 damage versus the MADIIC doing 39.06 damage; 40.05% advantage to the MADIIC.
At 650 meters, the BLR-2C is doing 20.96 damage versus the MADIIC doing 26.22 damage; 25.10% advantage to the MADIIC.
At 700 meters, the BLR-2C is doing 14.11 damage versus the MADIIC doing 15.17 damage; 7.51% advantage to the MADIIC.

Edited by Zergling, 11 May 2017 - 10:10 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

And the battlemaster is about twice as efficient at putting damage into a component. The MADIIC also has much lower/spread hardpoints.

That doesn't matter much for lasers. I mean it does to a degree but not as much as you seem to make it out to be. Mount positioning for lasers matters for clearing terrain more than anything, they aren't projectiles where that can cause issues lining up shots on moving targets.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 May 2017 - 09:57 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I remember back when IS was so powerful that we had the common Black Knight builds vs the common Timber Wolf builds and the Black Knight had so much extra structure that it could just go straight through the Timber Wolf's CT before the Timber Wolf could even destroy a single side torso if neither player twists. The Black Knight had superior hitboxes, better duration, better DPS, same alpha give or take 3 points, and side torsos the strength of 20 men, and even more offensive quirks on top of all the defense. The only thing it lost out on was range.

People still complained about CXL being OP and got CERML and CLPL range nerfed.

I guess PGI looked at the numbers instead of the whining at that point though since they did end up nerfing the Black Knight back down to reasonable levels instead of a pure "I win" button after a few months. (but in usual PGI form they also threw in the rescale at that point which hurt the Black Knight further, double nerfing it)

I really feel that people will complain about CXL forever after seeing them complain when the mech with the ISXL was more durable and had more firepower than the CXL one. This was even back when the Timber Wolf had all those negative quirks on it.

Of course... they are still complaining about CXL in situations in which a lighter mech bringing a STD engine beats the heavier CXL mech in everything but alpha(7 point difference) and range.


Real issue isn't CXL vs ISXL, or even Clan vs IS, its that there are many IS mechs out there that are absolute hot garbage compared to the top tier IS mechs. Many of the low class IS mechs sit around with very little quirks and are bad. They're worse than bad, they're down right terrible. People still use them, of course, and this leads many to believe balance between clans and IS is terrible since they only fight against clans rather than their own top tier mechs.

The Banshee and Stalker have no structure quirks as an example, and very few offensive quirks ontop of that. Why would anyone even bring a Banshee over a Battlemaster when the Banshee is 10 tons heavier, bigger, and less durable?

Just look at a Firestarter compared to the Oxide. The Firestarter is huge and has absolutely no defensive quirks and the only offensive quirks over 10% are 15% flamer range and 25% MG ROF on some variants. See the Oxide and it has structure boosts all over, mobility quirks, and 15% missile cooldown ontop of velocity and heat gen quirks.

Look at these two mechs:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1423b436c11880b
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...48a1657d119abc9

Both are from the same tech base, but one runs hotter, has a lower alpha strike, has lower total DPS, has lower sustained DPS, has lower range, has lower durability, has longer expose time, has lower mounts, and to top it all off it has the lower quirks. Just look me in the eye and tell me that they even compare.

The Oxide is right up there as competitive against the Jenner IIC, while the Firestarter is a joke.

What we need to do is get inter-faction balance. Bring the lowest IS mechs up to the point of the top tier IS mechs. Bring the weakest of Clan mechs up too. Compare a Commando to a Mist Lynx and you'll find them both equally sad.


Maybe PGI is holding off until skill trees and new tech drop in to actually fix balance issues like this, but really, why has all the fire been on IS vs Clan instead of where it counts? Half of you here don't even play FW except maybe on events.

[Templar Dane]

Zergling, on 11 May 2017 - 09:55 AM, said:

Whoopie doo, it is still outranged by Clan laser vomit.

If you only compare base stats and don't compare the various choices, then sure. Or if you only look at base damage and don't account for duration.

X mech fitted Y way beats Z mech fitted A way at one teeny tiny thing. Saying something is overpowered because of one minute detail and ignoring all the other advantages......

[Mcgral18]

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

ignoring all the other advantages......

Dis-advantages

[Templar Dane]

Dakota1000, on 11 May 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

I remember back when IS was so powerful that we had the common Black Knight builds vs the common Timber Wolf builds and the Black Knight had so much extra structure that it could just go straight through the Timber Wolf's CT before the Timber Wolf could even destroy a single side torso if neither player twists. The Black Knight had superior hitboxes, better duration, better DPS, same alpha give or take 3 points, and side torsos the strength of 20 men, and even more offensive quirks on top of all the defense. The only thing it lost out on was range.

People still complained about CXL being OP and got CERML and CLPL range nerfed.

I guess PGI looked at the numbers instead of the whining at that point though since they did end up nerfing the Black Knight back down to reasonable levels instead of a pure "I win" button after a few months. (but in usual PGI form they also threw in the rescale at that point which hurt the Black Knight further, double nerfing it)

I really feel that people will complain about CXL forever after seeing them complain when the mech with the ISXL was more durable and had more firepower than the CXL one. This was even back when the Timber Wolf had all those negative quirks on it.

Of course... they are still complaining about CXL in situations in which a lighter mech bringing a STD engine beats the heavier CXL mech in everything but alpha(7 point difference) and range.


Real issue isn't CXL vs ISXL, or even Clan vs IS, its that there are many IS mechs out there that are absolute hot garbage compared to the top tier IS mechs. Many of the low class IS mechs sit around with very little quirks and are bad. They're worse than bad, they're down right terrible. People still use them, of course, and this leads many to believe balance between clans and IS is terrible since they only fight against clans rather than their own top tier mechs.

The Banshee and Stalker have no structure quirks as an example, and very few offensive quirks ontop of that. Why would anyone even bring a Banshee over a Battlemaster when the Banshee is 10 tons heavier, bigger, and less durable?

Just look at a Firestarter compared to the Oxide. The Firestarter is huge and has absolutely no defensive quirks and the only offensive quirks over 10% are 15% flamer range and 25% MG ROF on some variants. See the Oxide and it has structure boosts all over, mobility quirks, and 15% missile cooldown ontop of velocity and heat gen quirks.

Look at these two mechs:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1423b436c11880b
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...48a1657d119abc9

Both are from the same tech base, but one runs hotter, has a lower alpha strike, has lower total DPS, has lower sustained DPS, has lower range, has lower durability, has longer expose time, has lower mounts, and to top it all off it has the lower quirks. Just look me in the eye and tell me that they even compare.

The Oxide is right up there as competitive against the Jenner IIC, while the Firestarter is a joke.

What we need to do is get inter-faction balance. Bring the lowest IS mechs up to the point of the top tier IS mechs. Bring the weakest of Clan mechs up too. Compare a Commando to a Mist Lynx and you'll find them both equally sad.


Maybe PGI is holding off until skill trees and new tech drop in to actually fix balance issues like this, but really, why has all the fire been on IS vs Clan instead of where it counts? Half of you here don't even play FW except maybe on events.

It's like the old stalker vs awesome issue. Even post quirk the geometry, high mounts and flexible builds make the stalker the better choice. The awesome NEEDS quirks.

KDK-3 being used too much. Better nerf all of the kodiaks AND UAC10s AAAAAAAAND all other UACs......just to be sure nobody would ever be caught using them. **** dude, my shadowhawk got nerfed because of the KDK3.....how much sense does that make?

Clans(who got a big influx of units at the beginning of the event) are winning by 5%. Better make a list of all the usable clan mechs/weapons and get PGI to nerf them because they killed my LRM/machine gun centurion with 35 back armor. How dare someone put PPCs on a summoner (a 70 ton mech with the pod space of a medium) and poptart with it.

[Templar Dane]

Mcgral18, on 11 May 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

Dis-advantages

What disadvantages would those be?

Range is pretty close on the common fits. In the case of ERLLs it's pretty much slightly in IS favor. CLPL may out range ISLPL, but they don't outrange ISERLL and if you're playing the range game you aren't going to bring ISLPL anyway.

Duration and damage/tick are in IS favor on the common fits.

Heat is mostly in favor of IS. IS tend to generate more heat, clan tends to carry more heat sinks. IS wins because of requiring generally less volleys to kill.

Tonnage? That one is a grey area. While IS weapons are heavier, they require less heat sinks.

Oh right none of that is true because the clanner will always hit a ST 100% with the full burn duration of his medium lasers. He'll always win every trade because the IS guy always brings the wrong weapon to the map.

[Zergling]

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

If you only compare base stats and don't compare the various choices, then sure. Or if you only look at base damage and don't account for duration.

The only time duration comes into play in a BLR-2C vs MADIIC comparison is if the BLR-2C is alpha striking, which drastically lowers the sustained DPS output of the BLR.

And given the medium-ranges the BLR fights at, that usually doesn't work out well for the BLR; it will be unable to poke often enough to stop a push, nor support one.

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

Saying something is overpowered

I'm not aware of saying anything was overpowered in this discussion.

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

and ignoring all the other advantages......

It is rather poor form to accuse others of something you have been doing yourself.

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

Range is pretty close on the common fits. In the case of ERLLs it's pretty much slightly in IS favor. CLPL may out range ISLPL, but they don't outrange ISERLL and if you're playing the range game you aren't going to bring ISLPL anyway.

Clans don't bring LPL if they are playing the range game either; they'll bring Gauss and ER PPC for that.

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

Duration and damage/tick are in IS favor on the common fits..

IS only have a duration advantage when A: they have 3x Large Pulse Lasers or less or B: they are alpha striking.

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

Heat is mostly in favor of IS.

Lol no, you're going off into 'Alternative Facts' here.

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

IS wins because of requiring generally less volleys to kill.

Not with IS XLs.

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

Tonnage? That one is a grey area. While IS weapons are heavier, they require less heat sinks.

Yet IS mechs still can't fit enough heatsinks to be as heat efficient as Clan.

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

Oh right none of that is true because the clanner will always hit a ST 100% with the full burn duration of his medium lasers. He'll always win every trade because the IS guy always brings the wrong weapon to the map.

Funny, I only said the Clan player will hit the side torso 100% of the time with their full burn when they have similar or lesser beam duration than the IS player, but what does context matter?

And why exactly is it unfair to assume the Clan player can't hit a giant ST hitbox 100% of the time, when it is somehow fair to assume the IS player can hit a similarly large (or even smaller!) CT hitbox 100% of the time?

Edited by Zergling, 11 May 2017 - 11:02 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Templar Dane, on 11 May 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

It's like the old stalker vs awesome issue. Even post quirk the geometry, high mounts and flexible builds make the stalker the better choice. The awesome NEEDS quirks.

KDK-3 being used too much. Better nerf all of the kodiaks AND UAC10s AAAAAAAAND all other UACs......just to be sure nobody would ever be caught using them. **** dude, my shadowhawk got nerfed because of the KDK3.....how much sense does that make?

Clans(who got a big influx of units at the beginning of the event) are winning by 5%. Better make a list of all the usable clan mechs/weapons and get PGI to nerf them because they killed my LRM/machine gun centurion with 35 back armor. How dare someone put PPCs on a summoner (a 70 ton mech with the pod space of a medium) and poptart with it.

And now a days the Stalker doesn't compare to the Battlemaster, which has mounts just as high but can bring bigger engines and has arm shields that could be stripped for about 4 extra tons.

New stuff came out but the old stuff didn't get boosts because PGI seems to have something against buffing things that used to be the meta years ago. Stalker should get either some durability quirks to double down on its slow but very tanky nature or some offensive quirks to round out its abilities and bring it up to the point of the Battlemaster.

Then the Awesome will need even more awesome quirks to bring it up to par.


The game would be kinda neat if you have the current meta mechs that are just generally good and able to peek and shoot and then all the currently bad mechs would become viable in their own somewhat more niche way through the use of some godly quirks.

Awesome was a siege mech in lore, built to fire its PPCs at fortifications over long ranges. It should get some boosts to its PPCs and DPS. Maybe remove its min range and increase the range on its PPCs to about 600-700m area and reduce the cooldowns on them.

Suddenly you have a mech that doesn't have those high hardpoints like a Battlemaster, but it becomes a formidable target that people would actually think to focus fire on, as it would push out heavy DPS at long range similar to a quad UAC5 Mauler.

Pretty much just make each mech fun to use with its own unique strengths that focus on either their lore abilities or what they are known for in MWO. Boost the quirks to the point where they are competitive with the meta builds.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dakota1000, on 11 May 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

I remember back when IS was so powerful that we had the common Black Knight builds vs the common Timber Wolf builds and the Black Knight had so much extra structure that it could just go straight through the Timber Wolf's CT before the Timber Wolf could even destroy a single side torso if neither player twists.

You are missing out an important quirk the BK had that made a huge difference outside of the structure, it had a 15% duration quirk which ended up giving it an insane edge over Clan laser vomit (the accel/decel variant was nice, but not AS nice the duration quirked variant).

Dakota1000, on 11 May 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

People still complained about CXL being OP and got CERML and CLPL range nerfed.

Those people were also told how wrong they were by people like myself because after the rebalance the dominance of the Whale era had ended. We also were yet to get the IICs or the Kodiak which basically helped turn things around by redefining the meta yet again like the Mauler and dakka mechs had before it.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 May 2017 - 10:58 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dakota1000, on 11 May 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

Awesome was a siege mech in lore, built to fire its PPCs at fortifications over long ranges. It should get some boosts to its PPCs and DPS. Maybe remove its min range and increase the range on its PPCs to about 600-700m area and reduce the cooldowns on them.

It can already do what you describe, it spits out 40 damage almost better than the Night Gyr (minus the JJs obviously). Its problem is the fact that it doesn't have as good of hitboxes (mounts could be better as well), is stuck with a STD engine, and minimum range (which you mention) on a mid-long range weapon is idiotic. I've actually used it over a Battlemaster on a few occasions in tonnage based leagues.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 May 2017 - 11:02 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 May 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

You are missing out an important quirk the BK had that made a huge difference outside of the structure, it had a 15% duration quirk which ended up giving it an insane edge over Clan laser vomit.


Those people were also told how wrong they were by people like myself because after the rebalance the dominance of the Whale era had ended. We also were yet to get the IICs or the Kodiak which basically helped turn things around by redefining the meta yet again like the Mauler and dakka mechs had before it.

My main point with balance is that CXL vs ISXL wasn't what really mattered, but the quirks themselves. The Black Knight having all its other quirks and then the duration quirk you mentioned made it an unstoppable killing machine of its time.

I went on to say that bad mechs should be given more quirks to boost them up to the level of the top performing mechs in that comment and my next after that.

Many older mechs have just fallen off the face of the meta due to nerfs over the years or the old "I used to be meta" issue. They could be brought back through quirks as I explained in more detail in the other post.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 May 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

It can already do what you describe, it spits out 40 damage almost better than the Night Gyr (minus the JJs obviously). Its problem is the fact that it doesn't have as good of hitboxes (mounts could be better as well), is stuck with a STD engine, and minimum range (which you mention) on a mid-long range weapon is idiotic. I've actually used it over a Battlemaster on a few occasions in tonnage based leagues.

That's why I suggest further quirks to make up for the problems that it does have. Doubling down on what it has to make it much better than the Night Gyr or giving it further durability to negate the hitbox issue.

Edited by Dakota1000, 11 May 2017 - 11:03 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dakota1000, on 11 May 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

My main point with balance is that CXL vs ISXL wasn't what really mattered, but the quirks themselves.

The quirks were there to overcome that issue though, the reason they needed structure was to equalize TTK in the worst case scenarios for IS mechs to overcome the difference between the iXL and cXL. So yes, it really was about the iXL vs the cXL. If all IS mechs had quirks baked in when they mounted iXLs to give their sides extensive defensive buffs (armor/internals equal to the CT) then sure, that would be great, but until then we have a bunch of haphazard and non-uniform quirks that miss the mark on a whole lot of mechs.

The duration quirks is just what tipped the scales to be over the top because it also had the other perfect energy quirks with 10% range and 10% heat gen.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 May 2017 - 11:06 AM.