330 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Zergling, on 12 May 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

The Marauder IIC can cycle 2x Large Pulse too, and be cooling off over 2.5 times faster. While only being at 65% heat instead of 80% after firing its alpha!

But it is not doing 55 pinpoint over 0.6 seconds at 438m, now is it?

Edited by Gyrok, 12 May 2017 - 06:40 PM.

[Zergling]

/facepalm

Time to add yet another to the ignore list

[Templar Dane]

Zergling, on 12 May 2017 - 06:42 PM, said:

/facepalm

Time to add yet another to the ignore list

He's right though.

[Y E O N N E]

Templar Dane, on 12 May 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

He's right though.

Sort of. Pragmatically speaking, no 'Mech boating 5x LPL can move its torso components out of the way fast enough to avoid the majority of the incoming. It's about 0.8 seconds before significant changes in displacement happen, so you get about the same damage onto a component. Naturally, geometry plays a role, but the geo on the BattleMaster in this case is not a positive attribute. The Stalker would be better.

[Zergling]

Templar Dane, on 12 May 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

He's right though.

He's going over the same topics that have already been discussed.

As I said before, the Marauder IIC only has one option: fire everything for moderate heat, doing 40 damage over 0.67 seconds.
The Battlemaster 2C has two options: fire 3x Large Pulse for low heat, doing 33 damage over 0.67 seconds, or fire 5x large pulse for high heat, doing 55 damage over 0.67 seconds.

Neither of the Battlemaster's options are totally superior to the Marauder IIC's option, as they are both a trade-off in damage vs heat.
In certain circumstances, the Battlemaster's options will be superior to the Marauder IIC's option, but in other circumstances they'd be inferior.

Yeonne Greene, on 12 May 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

Sort of. Pragmatically speaking, no 'Mech boating 5x LPL can move its torso components out of the way fast enough to avoid the majority of the incoming. It's about 0.8 seconds before significant changes in displacement happen, so you get about the same damage onto a component. Naturally, geometry plays a role, but the geo on the BattleMaster in this case is not a positive attribute. The Stalker would be better.

Pretty much this; the Battlemaster might be able to start twisting first, but its torso hitboxes are so large it isn't gonna be able to twist fast enough to avoid taking 68 damage to a side torso.

The main advantage of the shorter beam duration is for snap shots against targets that appear and disappear quickly, not to be able to fire and torso twist before the opponent to incoming spread damage around.

Edited by Zergling, 12 May 2017 - 08:03 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Zergling, on 12 May 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

He's going over the same topics that have already been discussed.

As I said before, the Marauder IIC only has one option: fire everything for moderate heat, doing 40 damage over 0.67 seconds.
The Battlemaster 2C has two options: fire 3x Large Pulse for low heat, doing 33 damage over 0.67 seconds, or fire 5x large pulse for high heat, doing 55 damage over 0.67 seconds.

Neither of the Battlemaster's options are totally superior to the Marauder IIC's option, as they are both a trade-off in damage vs heat.
In certain circumstances, the Battlemaster's options will be superior to the Marauder IIC's option, but in other circumstances they'd be inferior.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Gyrok, on 12 May 2017 - 05:16 PM, said:

You can still cycle your 2 LPLs after that, and continue to cool off while doing so...

Have you ever played that build? You don't ******* cool off, you get another single-ST group shot or two, then you either start chainfiring or stop shooting entirely. You only full alpha when you're poking from cover or when you need to kill a single damaged enemy/light standing still and there aren't other targets around to take advantage of your heat.

[Zergling]

Templar Dane, on 12 May 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

You're doing the same thing as Gyrok now, going over stuff that has already been discussed.

As said before, high mounts aren't everything; they are quite situational. In situations where the Battlemaster can make use of them, it has an advantage, but when it can't, the Marauder IIC has the advantage.

And once again, you neglect to mention that your screenshot highlights one of the biggest advantages of the Marauder IIC over the Battlemaster: torso hitboxes.
It is substantially easier to focus a side torso hitbox on the Battlemaster than it is to focus a side or the center torso on the Marauder IIC.

Overall, in some circumstances the Battlemaster can be superior, but in most others, the Marauder IIC wins out.

Alexander of Macedon, on 12 May 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

Have you ever played that build? You don't ******* cool off, you get another single-ST group shot or two, then you either start chainfiring or stop shooting entirely. You only full alpha when you're poking from cover or when you need to kill a single damaged enemy/light standing still and there aren't other targets around to take advantage of your heat.

Yes and no.

On a heat neutral map and if the Battlemaster isn't moving, it's average net heat change is -0.46 per second. Any sort of movement is going to nullify that heat drop though.

In the same circumstances, the Marauder IIC's average net heat change is -1.17 per second.

Edited by Zergling, 12 May 2017 - 08:15 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Zergling, on 12 May 2017 - 08:10 PM, said:

You're doing the same thing as Gyrok now, going over stuff that has already been discussed.

And you're ignoring everything anybody says that doesn't promote your agenda.

Zergling, on 12 May 2017 - 08:10 PM, said:

As said before, high mounts aren't everything; they are quite situational. In situations where the Battlemaster can make use of them, it has an advantage, but when it can't, the Marauder IIC has the advantage.

The whale was around for a long time. Nobody complained about it's dakka. Suddenly kodiak 3. Now, the whale can do 4x UAC10 just like the kodiak and nobody complained. Suddenly a mech with high mounts can do the same.......and nerfs.

Zergling, on 12 May 2017 - 08:10 PM, said:

And once again, you neglect to mention that your screenshot highlights one of the biggest advantages of the Marauder IIC over the Battlemaster: torso hitboxes.
It is substantially easier to focus a side torso hitbox on the Battlemaster than it is to focus a side or the center torso on the Marauder IIC.

The MADIIC has to expose a lot more of itself to fire the volleys you are quoting AND hold the reticle on target for nearly twice as long. It's single high mount isn't going to be good in any trades, and it's geometry is that of a brawler like an orion but with a heavy energy emphasis which is kind of bad for brawling when you're that hot.

Zergling, on 12 May 2017 - 08:10 PM, said:

Overall, in some circumstances the Battlemaster can be superior, but in most others, the Marauder IIC wins out.

In the testing grounds? Sure.

You have any idea how many inclines there are to hill-hump? Every map has them.

The MADIIC is little more than a bullet sponge.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 12 May 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

But it is not doing 55 pinpoint over 0.6 seconds at 438m, now is it?

In 0.67 seconds, the M2C build deals 40 damage

Then burns again for almost twice the damage.
In 0.85s, it deals 50.77 damage (around typical reaction time)


So, I guess you might win on a mutual trade. Yes if it's unexpected (I mean, anything would)

[Mcgral18]

Templar Dane, on 12 May 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

The whale was around for a long time. Nobody complained about it's dakka. Suddenly kodiak 3. Now, the whale can do 4x UAC10 just like the kodiak and nobody complained. Suddenly a mech with high mounts can do the same.......and nerfs.

You have one of the important parts, but forgot the other very important part:

>300 engine cap
It's not a Whale
It can move 15 Kph faster with better loadouts, higher mounted
It can track any light hounding it

Those are also what made it better, not just the high mounts


Battlemaster has pitch/yaw issues, some pretty darn bad (I don't think the 2C is one of those)
M2C is just under 90 degs sideways, which is decent as far as Assaults go

[Zergling]

Templar Dane, on 12 May 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

And you're ignoring everything anybody says that doesn't promote your agenda.

I only ignore what potatoes and known trolls say.

I'm willing to debate with people that aren't one of those, and I give greater weight to the opinions of high skill players.

Templar Dane, on 12 May 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

The whale was around for a long time. Nobody complained about it's dakka. Suddenly kodiak 3. Now, the whale can do 4x UAC10 just like the kodiak and nobody complained. Suddenly a mech with high mounts can do the same.......and nerfs.

KDK-3 had more than high mounts over the Dire Wolf.

It had or has:
much higher speed and agility
much better torso twist
shield arms
structure quirks

Combined, it was all those factors that made the KDK overpowered, not just the high mounts.

Back when the Dire Wolf was considered Tier 1, it probably would have been OP if it received high mounts.
If it received high mounts now? I honestly don't know.

Templar Dane, on 12 May 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

In the testing grounds? Sure.

You have any idea how many inclines there are to hill-hump? Every map has them.

Sure, but there are still a great many situations that will be fought outside of hill-humping.

That doesn't mean the hill-humping is unimportant, because it's not. It just isn't everything either.

Templar Dane, on 12 May 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

The MADIIC has to expose a lot more of itself to fire the volleys you are quoting AND hold the reticle on target for nearly twice as long. It's single high mount isn't going to be good in any trades, and it's geometry is that of a brawler like an orion but with a heavy energy emphasis which is kind of bad for brawling when you're that hot.

The MADIIC is little more than a bullet sponge.

Tbh, you are severely underestimating the Marauder IIC.


Here's the Marauder IIC's (2x Large Pulse + 6x ER Medium build) advantages over the wubmaster 2C:
More alpha damage
Cooler running (which results in better sustained DPS)
More durable (due to Clan XL + better hitboxes)

And the Battlemaster 2C's advantages over the Marauder IIC:
High mounts
Short beam duration

The BLR-2C is a good mech, but is it as good as the Marauder IIC? I find that to be debatable.
If the BLR is able to hill-hump effectively, it will probably perform better than the Marauder IIC. If it can't, the Marauder IIC will perform better.

And is hill-humping as important in organised competitive play as it is in QP or FW against unorganised potatoes?

Edited by Zergling, 12 May 2017 - 09:18 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Templar Dane, on 12 May 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

The whale was around for a long time. Nobody complained about it's dakka. Suddenly kodiak 3. Now, the whale can do 4x UAC10 just like the kodiak and nobody complained. Suddenly a mech with high mounts can do the same.......and nerfs.

If it had a locked XL300, it would be barely any better than a Dire Wolf. Alas, it actually usually mounts a 395.

[Templar Dane]

SKINLESS, on 12 May 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

Maybe the units on IS are just overwhelmingly bad? God forbid people factor in the user aim and mechlab skills. MUST BE DA MECH TECH BRUH. It's amazing how the same clan players do better in inner sphere mechs during QP than clan. MUST BE DA MECH TECH BRUH. It's clearly not the pilot efficiency at the game.

They're grasping for any excuse to get clan mechs nerfed.

[Shifty McSwift]

Did someone just point out the MadIICs low hardpoints?

You have to remember that is the ONLY downside to a MADIIC, so, yeah, its hardpoints are low, the end. In every other aspect it whoops all the butts.

[Valhallan]

Templar Dane, on 12 May 2017 - 09:35 PM, said:

They're grasping for any excuse to get clan mechs nerfed.

Yea it's clearly player skill, that's why every comp league including the WC is rocking clan tech, all the comp players just happen to be clanners, it's clearly that all clanners are better so let's just all join the clans and leave the IS empty . That way the abomination of a FW can finally be euthanized and can't be used to justify low content output for QP.

Edited by Valhallan, 12 May 2017 - 09:45 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Templar Dane, on 12 May 2017 - 09:35 PM, said:

They're grasping for any excuse to get clan mechs nerfed.

For the Sphere to be buffed, actually

They're inferior, and without quirks, NO Sphere mech actually competes with the high end Clams

[Zergling]

Mcgral18, on 12 May 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

For the Sphere to be buffed, actually

They're inferior, and without quirks, NO Sphere mech actually competes with the high end Clams

Yep, buff things like IS XL, then IS quirks can be reduced or even eliminated entirely on some IS mechs.

[Mcgral18]

Zergling, on 12 May 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

Yep, buff things like IS XL, then IS quirks can be reduced or even eliminated entirely on some IS mechs.

And hopefully the Laser rework in July fixes things as well
The Small class to not be completely worthless, ML being less hot

Ideally, not JUST the isLPL being nerfed (which it Could be...but it could also stay)

[Lupis Volk]

Zergling, on 12 May 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

Yep, buff things like IS XL, then IS quirks can be reduced or even eliminated entirely on some IS mechs.

Hmm I'd love it if PGI did that for a month just to gather data before reverting back to normal. Let's see where it goes.