330 replies to this topic

[Templar Dane]

Kubernetes, on 08 May 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

Yep, Clan ERLLs are trash compared to their IS counterparts. Throw in a duration-quirked chassis like the Grasshopper 5P and the difference is even more stark.

The Clans have an obvious counter in Gauss/ERPPC, but those are high skill weapons that maybe 10-20% of the playerbase can use effectively. The average pug using IS ERLL is going to beat an average pug using Clan Gauss/ERPPC.

Aye. I don't even bother with gauss/ppc anymore since gauss charge-up and ppc velocity was nerfed. PPCs are nice on the 40% velocity mechs though.

The way things are now I'd rather just use IS vomit over gauss/ppc since it's quite a bit easier to use at the intended range.

[Fobhopper]

Templar Dane, on 08 May 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

2x CERLL = 22 damage/20 heat/1.5s duration @ 740m
3x ISERLL = 27 damage/24 heat/1.25s duration @ 675m (742.5m with 10% range quirk)

5x CERML = 35 damage/30 heat/1.15s duration @ 405m
3x ISLPL = 33 damage/21 heat/.67s duration @ 365m (401.5m with 10% range quirk)

Base stats with no quirks, 10% range quirk in parentheses. Where's that massive range advantage? Even with targeting computers, I'd still take the IS vomit any day of the week because of the shorter durations.

CXL vs ISXL........clan weapons tend to spread damage more than IS equivalents. It's easier to core out your target when your damage goes where you want rather than spreading around the target as it moves.

Better heat sinks? How about having to fire less volleys to kill something because your damage isn't spread around the target as much, thus generating less heat?

if you are going to compare damage and such, at least post tonnage of the weapons.
CERLL = 1 slot, 4 tons.
ERLL = 2 slots, 5 tons

2x CERLL= 8 tons
3x ISERLL= 15 TONS
It takes IS almost double the tonnage, DOUBLE to equal clan damage potential. Ah, but you didnt post that in your answer because it doesnt prove your point. For almost half the tonnage an IS mech would have to take, you have better base damage (11 vs 9 for full beam duration), better range (if the IS mech doesnt have range quirk OR modules, which that module isnt cheap and requires XP to unlock, which the clanners can just do the same and it will still outrange IS weapons).

5x CERML = 1 slot, 2 tons each. meaning 5 slots and 10 tons for all 5.
3x ISLPL = 2 slots, 7 tons each. meaning 6 slots and 21 tons for all 3.
21 ******* TONS for 33 damage compared 10 tons for 35 damage and range (but more heat). Are you going to look at me with that dumb look on your face and say Clans dont have an advantage? which slap on a range module on both mechs and Clan still out ranges them.

AND clans can still equip targetting computers which give more bonuses.

Now I will agree that IS lasers require less pulse time to do their damage, meaning less face time and they are more able to torso twist to defend themselves from incoming damage. But compared to all the other bonuses clans already have (built in case, XL superiority, longer optimal range for weapons, targeting computers, better double heatsinks, omnipods) a slightly longer pulse time is a small price to pay for better overall stats.

Look, I like running clan mechs almost as much as I love running IS mechs (and I have bought almost every single clan package, and own many IS packages, including founders). But you are clearly fooling yourself if you dont think clan mechs aren't inherently superior to IS mechs for the weight classes. At a baseline, clan mechs and weapons are superior in almost every way (except for AC weapons, thats the one spot IS weapons operate better).

[Templar Dane]

Fobhopper, on 08 May 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

if you are going to compare damage and such, at least post tonnage of the weapons.
CERLL = 1 slot, 4 tons.
ERLL = 2 slots, 5 tons

2x CERLL= 8 tons
3x ISERLL= 15 TONS
It takes IS almost double the tonnage, DOUBLE to equal clan damage potential. Ah, but you didnt post that in your answer because it doesnt prove your point. For almost half the tonnage an IS mech would have to take, you have better base damage (11 vs 9 for full beam duration), better range (if the IS mech doesnt have range quirk OR modules, which that module isnt cheap and requires XP to unlock, which the clanners can just do the same and it will still outrange IS weapons).

5x CERML = 1 slot, 2 tons each. meaning 5 slots and 10 tons for all 5.
3x ISLPL = 2 slots, 7 tons each. meaning 6 slots and 21 tons for all 3.
21 ******* TONS for 33 damage compared 10 tons for 35 damage and range (but more heat). Are you going to look at me with that dumb look on your face and say Clans dont have an advantage? which slap on a range module on both mechs and Clan still out ranges them.

AND clans can still equip targetting computers which give more bonuses.

Now I will agree that IS lasers require less pulse time to do their damage, meaning less face time and they are more able to torso twist to defend themselves from incoming damage. But compared to all the other bonuses clans already have (built in case, XL superiority, longer optimal range for weapons, targeting computers, better double heatsinks, omnipods) a slightly longer pulse time is a small price to pay for better overall stats.

Look, I like running clan mechs almost as much as I love running IS mechs (and I have bought almost every single clan package, and own many IS packages, including founders). But you are clearly fooling yourself if you dont think clan mechs aren't inherently superior to IS mechs for the weight classes. At a baseline, clan mechs and weapons are superior in almost every way (except for AC weapons, thats the one spot IS weapons operate better).

Those stats were without quirks. Some have more range, some have duration quirks (dragon with 20% duration), some have heat, some have a bit of everything.

Not to mention durability quirks and geometry that exacerbate the 'clan spread damage' issue. Battlemasters, grasshoppers and black knights typically run with XLs and have little to no issue with them. They can trade really well with clan mechs because of the superior duration.

DURATION DURATION DURATION. That's the key to their vomit, super short durations that are much easier to get the damage where you want it rather than spread all over a mech from twisting.

5x ISLPL battlemasters don't run many heat sinks and get away with it because they cut mechs in half if you don't have potato aim, thus they fire fewer volleys and generate less heat.

AND I JUST SHOWED THAT CLAN DOESN'T HAVE A RANGE ADVANTAGE. The only thing they DO have is gauss + erppc which isn't really doable on most/all decent IS mechs.

Edited by Templar Dane, 08 May 2017 - 04:51 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Fobhopper, on 08 May 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

Look, I like running clan mechs almost as much as I love running IS mechs (and I have bought almost every single clan package, and own many IS packages, including founders). But you are clearly fooling yourself if you dont think clan mechs aren't inherently superior to IS mechs for the weight classes. At a baseline, clan mechs and weapons are superior in almost every way (except for AC weapons, thats the one spot IS weapons operate better).

Who cares that you have a slighly bigger engine, can lose ONE ST without biting the dust, and might have more heat sinks to absorb the extra heat when you are losing trades because of abysmal durations/durability quirks/geometry.

What 85ish ton clan mech competes with the battlemaster? What 70-75 ton mech competes with grasshopper/black knight? LPL vomit cuts mechs in half in the blink of an eye, rather than pissing damage all over a mech.

IS/CLAN balance is fine. The only real imbalance in the game right now is non-gauss ballistics being rubbish. You need like 30+ tons worth of weapons/ammo to be competitive and even you'd be better off just taking a laser vomit mech or gauss/ppc.

[visionGT4]

Templar Dane, on 08 May 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

DURATION DURATION DURATION.

You know 99.9% of clan lasers do equal or more damage for the same dwell time as IS las0rz right?

Edited by visionGT4, 08 May 2017 - 05:11 PM.

[Mcgral18]

visionGT4, on 08 May 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

You know 99.9% of clan lasers do equal or more damage for the same dwell time as IS las0rz right?

isLPL is the exceptional exception to that rule

Significantly more than the cLPL, while the isMPL also has marginally more

Everything else is equal, or better for the Clams

[Templar Dane]

visionGT4, on 08 May 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

You know 99.9% of clan lasers do equal or more damage for the same dwell time as IS las0rz right?

Counted individually but 3x LPL........Compare that to 2x CLPL or 5x CERML.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Templar Dane, on 08 May 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

Counted individually but 3x LPL........Compare that to 2x CLPL or 5x CERML.

wut

3 LPL is 21 tons
2 CLPL is 12 tons
5 ERML is 5 tons

are you ******** me

[visionGT4]

Templar Dane, on 08 May 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

Counted individually but 3x LPL........Compare that to 2x CLPL or 5x CERML.

so 21 tons vs 12tons / 5tons

Easy mode much?

Edited by visionGT4, 08 May 2017 - 05:32 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 May 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

wut

3 LPL is 21 tons
2 CLPL is 12 tons
5 ERML is 5 tons

are you ******** me

Trading. What does it matter if your weapons are lighter if you are dead from losing trades?

[visionGT4]

Clan High Command - can you send another representative to lead your apologist agenda.

This guy lasted all of 5mins before looking like a total moron. Maybe appoint a pilot or mech warrior phenotype to the post next time

Edited by visionGT4, 08 May 2017 - 05:50 PM.

[Kubernetes]

Fobhopper, on 08 May 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

if you are going to compare damage and such, at least post tonnage of the weapons.
CERLL = 1 slot, 4 tons.
ERLL = 2 slots, 5 tons

2x CERLL= 8 tons
3x ISERLL= 15 TONS

Who the eff cares about the tonnage of weapons? The meta BLR-1G carries 6 ERLL and still moves 76 kph. IS also has a tonnage advantage, so that 85-tonner is a more efficient use of tonnage than a Clan 85-tonner. The Grasshopper 5P can carry 5 ERLL and run about the same speed. Heavier weapons are not holding back either of those builds. Also, who gives a crap about heat on these builds? These are optimized to deliver maximum poke at long range in a team setting. Running hot doesn't matter because you have all the time in the world to back up and cool down. You don't worry about getting face-tanked by a high-DPS brawler because you count on your 11 friends to mow down those threats. Get your team to bring these two builds and you will own on Polar, Alpine, and Boreal.

I'm just SMH at how many IS pilots refuse to take advantage of the quirks and chassis available to them. They'd rather play "my way" and get stomped over and over. My unit regularly changes between IS and Clan, and we perform nearly identically regardless of the tech base, because CW is a team game where comms, coordination, and skill far outweigh tech as the deciding factor in matches.

[Templar Dane]

Kubernetes, on 08 May 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

Who the eff cares about the tonnage of weapons? The meta BLR-1G carries 6 ERLL and still moves 76 kph. IS also has a tonnage advantage, so that 85-tonner is a more efficient use of tonnage than a Clan 85-tonner. The Grasshopper 5P can carry 5 ERLL and run about the same speed. Heavier weapons are not holding back either of those builds. Also, who gives a crap about heat on these builds? These are optimized to deliver maximum poke at long range in a team setting. Running hot doesn't matter because you have all the time in the world to back up and cool down. You don't worry about getting face-tanked by a high-DPS brawler because you count on your 11 friends to mow down those threats. Get your team to bring these two builds and you will own on Polar, Alpine, and Boreal.

I'm just SMH at how many IS pilots refuse to take advantage of the quirks and chassis available to them. They'd rather play "my way" and get stomped over and over. My unit regularly changes between IS and Clan, and we perform nearly identically regardless of the tech base, because CW is a team game where comms, coordination, and skill far outweigh tech as the deciding factor in matches.

He's probably too busy in his LRM centurion to bother with those rubbish meta mechs.

[Ten Roos]

Kubernetes, on 08 May 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

Who the eff cares about the tonnage of weapons? The meta BLR-1G carries 6 ERLL and still moves 76 kph. IS also has a tonnage advantage, so that 85-tonner is a more efficient use of tonnage than a Clan 85-tonner. The Grasshopper 5P can carry 5 ERLL and run about the same speed. Heavier weapons are not holding back either of those builds. Also, who gives a crap about heat on these builds? These are optimized to deliver maximum poke at long range in a team setting. Running hot doesn't matter because you have all the time in the world to back up and cool down. You don't worry about getting face-tanked by a high-DPS brawler because you count on your 11 friends to mow down those threats. Get your team to bring these two builds and you will own on Polar, Alpine, and Boreal.

I'm just SMH at how many IS pilots refuse to take advantage of the quirks and chassis available to them. They'd rather play "my way" and get stomped over and over. My unit regularly changes between IS and Clan, and we perform nearly identically regardless of the tech base, because CW is a team game where comms, coordination, and skill far outweigh tech as the deciding factor in matches.

Is this even a serious post? Troll bait surely....

PS. 3 posts below me, part way explain why this is troll bait.

Edited by Ten Roos, 08 May 2017 - 06:56 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I see you over there, reading this thread right now.

Spoiler

I await your posts

[Kaeb Odellas]

Templar Dane, on 08 May 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

Trading. What does it matter if your weapons are lighter if you are dead from losing trades?

Lighter weapons = more weapons = bigger alphas = winning trades.

[Garfuncle]

I like how Clanners list a select few IS mechs that stand remotely any chance against them as "proof of balance." Meanwhile the best light is the Cheetah, the best medium is the Hunchback IIC, the best Heavy is the Night Gyr and now I'd say the Mad IIC is better than the Kodiak so it's the top dog now.

Then you have the nova, huntsman, stormcrow, t-wolf, ebon jag and kodiak...meanwhile despite the volume of mech selection IS has, if you're not taking a warhammer, battlemaster, grasshopper or maybe stalker in your deck you are considerably gimped from the get go.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 May 2017 - 06:49 PM, said:

Lighter weapons = more weapons = bigger alphas = winning trades.

Except clan weapons run much hotter and have stricter ghost heat rules.

Here we go with math again. I'll compare 2 75 tonners.

Black Knight Build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c016728942eb76c
Timber Wolf Build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...996d6779d9d6193

Black Knight has a 10% heat gen quirk for all energy weapons among other things.

That Black Knight generates 40.5 heat per alpha after quirks for 69 damage. The Timber Wolf generates 56 heat for 68 damage.

Black Knight has about half Timber Wolf's duration with the lasers, causing 103 damage per second worth of beam time based on longest duration laser. Meanwhile TW gets 59 damage per second worth of beam time.

When elited TW takes 11.45 seconds to cool an alpha back to 0, the Black Knight takes 12.82 seconds.

The Black Knight's loadout is 5 tons of heatsinks plus 33 tons of lasers for 38 tons total. Timber Wolf's is 15 tons of heatsinks and 18 tons of lasers for 33 tons total. This puts the Timber Wolf's loadout at 5 tons lighter than the Black Knight's. This 15% difference in weight may very well be covered by the quirks, as is their purpose.


Basically Clan weapons are lighter but they require many more heatsinks to cool them down to the level of IS. In trades they will lose horribly due to IS weapons that are twice as precise with less waste heat, unless they can use their range advantage. Basically they absolutely dominate when defending choke points in CW where the defender can just sit up near some cover about 200m from the gate and blast the more fragile clanners the instant they walk through the gate without giving them time to react.

Lighter but inefficient weapons = more heatsinks = more spread = lower alphas = losing trades.

[Kubernetes]

Ten Roos, on 08 May 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

Is this even a serious post? Troll bait surely....

PS. 3 posts below me, part way explain why this is troll bait.

Why would you think I was trolling? I'm serious. We switch from IS to Clan and back every three weeks or so. Our WLR and KDR are almost the same. I would say a majority of our pilots prefer driving IS.

Yes, you should bring Battlemasters, Grasshoppers, and Warhammers. Other mechs work for different situations, like dakka for hot maps, or builds for brawls. Griffins and Shadowhawks are a match for any Clan 50-tonner. Warhammers and Grasshoppers can go toe-to-toe with Ebon Jags and Hellbringers. I still sometimes bring Jagers, Riflemen, Quickdraws, Marauders, etcs. The Cicada 2B is a match for anything plus or minus five tons. The Locust and Spider are still strong. Recently I've thrown a Phoenix Hawk 1B into the mix and it has killed it on maps like Alpine. When it comes to FW there are competitive IS builds for every map and mode.

[Templar Dane]

Dakota1000, on 08 May 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

logic

We should set up a page or an infograph or something and just link that every time people are being stupid so we don't have to rehash all this crap over and over.