49 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

I appreciate that PGI is trying to make good choices with the skill tree. I'm not posing a rant thread - just some math and reality to consider when building your mechs and skilling them up.

1. Mobility reduction increases the value of poke/pop mechs

Brawling is only viable is you have the speed and mobility to close the range while spreading the damage you take and once closed to maneuver such that you're not getting focused. All of those tools are reduced in the new system and so the relative value of hide and poke increases. With the ability of already high performers like the Night Gyr getting the ability to get velocity, burn duration and cooldown quirks you're better off going with range and ECM when possible, poptarting if toy have the skill. These sorts of builds are either minimally effected or straight up buffed in the new approach while brawl to mid range is significantly nerfed. Your ability to twist off or avoid damage is also reduced.

2. Boat 1 weapon type

With the new point based system you'll get way more value out of ballistics + PPCs or just lasers or just missiles as you can avoid splitting points among multiple weapons. You can no longer have a middle module and a ballistic module and run both at comparable value - the nature of gating means tradeoffs are uneven. Boat 1 weapon type, maximize its functionality.

3. Gank > Tank

Don't get suckered into the survival tree. 10% more damage (If not more) from weapon quirks is 30-80 more damage/match, which is to say 1 or 2 more killing shots when you need them. 8-10 more points of health on a single location helps you a little 1× per match, weapon quirks help you every time you shoot. It's like asking if a sing coolshots is more valuable than a cooldown module for all your weapons. Of course it is. All the time vs 1 time.

4. Mobility + OPs are a must have

reduced heat, increased heat cap and more speed each directly equate to saved tonnage. 1-6 tons of engine in value, 1-4 tons of DHS in value depending on the build. There is nothing in any other category that is of comparable value in 99% of builds. Twisting and turning quirks directly relate to your ability to get guns on target, get in and out of positions and mitigate the damage you take. These things are telling all the time in every match and equate to a straight weight savings. It's like taking endo over ff. It shouldn't be a serious question 99 out of 100 times.

5. Because of gating you need to minmax

Gating works by making you buy a bunch of useless stuff to get good stuff. The result of that is you have to give up the best of one tree to get the worst of another. This is universally a bad trade. You're better off getting top mobility tree and speed teeak, which nets you several tons worth of engine upgrade free and downgrading the engine to spend 1.5 tons on AMS than blowing off speed tweak and the best mobility quirks to get the least useful level of Radar Derp. There is no good way with gating to trade a bit of this for a bit of that. It's giving up the best of one tree for the worst of another. Max 2 trees and 1/2 of a third. Anything else is almost always cooing to be a bad setup.

The skill tree won't be a big change to the meta aside from pushing back the recent rise of viable brawling back to poke. It also leans back into poptarting and ppc/Gauss because a nerf to DPS % hurts high DPS builds over already low DPS builds, narrowing the gap between high alpha, low DPS and low alpha, high DPS to favor high alpha over high DPS. Combined with the mobility nerfs it rewards Go Big builds over Run Cool. The main change of the skill tree is opening up a wide range of ways for people to gimp themselves vs players making smart skill choices in addition to mech build choices. Make smart choices and the skill tree is just another advantage good players can leverage (at the cost of reduced customization options).

Edited by MischiefSC, 13 May 2017 - 10:49 AM.

[The Pug Commander]

good write up...

[Coolant]

MischiefSC, on 13 May 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

3. Gank > Tank

This is only valid if you are taking full direct damage to one location. If it is lasers/Clan Ballistics/LRM's you spread that damage all over.

[TheArisen]

Ironic that the skill tree essentially promotes boating and min maxing.

[MischiefSC]

Coolant, on 13 May 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

This is only valid if you are taking full direct damage to one location. If it is lasers/Clan Ballistics/LRM's you spread that damage all over.

Except velocity buffs to ballistics reduce that and burn duration quirks reduce it. Given that, for example, a 2 LPL/5 cerml build is doing a 62pt alpha with a 15% burn reduction, plus cooldown and heat gen buffs it will absolutely put that more efficiently where you want it and more frequently than it does in live.

Not to mention that due to mobility nerfs you will not twist as fast as you do in live.

So to clarify, especially for IS vs Clans Gank > Tank. Because higher values benefit more from
% buffs clan weapons gained correspondingly more value from the skill tree. Technically IS gains more armor/structure for the same reason the value of that is way, way inferior to doing more damage more accurately at longer ranges more often and with better heat management every time you shoot.

[Scyther]

I can't recall too many skill tree based games that didn't promote 'focus on 1-2 areas for maximum effect, you can't spread all over'.

The previous skill tree+quirks+modules system wasn't overly different, but it did generally allow for decent bonuses to 2 different weapon systems. We'll have to see how the new Firepower tree pans out for people who want to have mixed weapon builds.

[Khobai]

Quote

Ironic that the skill tree essentially promotes boating and min maxing.

yeah I wish they rewarded mixed loadouts more

boating already has enough incentives as is

Quote

I can't recall too many skill tree based games that didn't promote 'focus on 1-2 areas for maximum effect, you can't spread all over'.

yeah but most games also arnt designed around a fatal flaw like pinpoint convergence.

boating exploits the games biggest balance issue which is why boating should be discouraged rather than encouraged.

Edited by Khobai, 13 May 2017 - 12:41 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Khobai, on 13 May 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

yeah I wish they rewarded mixed loadouts more

boating already has enough incentives as is



yeah but most games also arnt designed around a fatal flaw like pinpoint convergence.

boating exploits the games biggest balance issue which is why boating should be discouraged rather than encouraged.

I don't see how it's any worse than the module system. Where each module only effects one weapon and you had limited module slots. If anything the firepower tree was better the other way.

Edited by MechaBattler, 13 May 2017 - 12:59 PM.

[Gamuray]

I don't see a ton of math. Mostly speculation..

1. If you want to keep brawling, you have the ability to invest back into mobility, specifically turning. You may have to sacrifice something else, but that's the point of a skill TREE. You don't get everything. And that long range guy that didn't invest will no longer be able to keep up in a brawl even with a large engine. So you actually have an advantage now.

Keep in mind, part of hide and poke is being able to change direction well. Can't do that without investment. As for jumpjets, they'll still be bad on heavy chassis like before. This hurts poking just as much as brawlers, because poking out will take longer and result in more return fire.

Oh, and Night Gyr already had access to buffs.. it just needs to choose them now. If they choose to invest into sniping, as you mentioned, they'll have horrid mobility and be dead meat if a brawl occurs.

2. The most recent skill tree rework (https://mwomercs.com...d-chris-lowrey/) has VERY FEW weapon specific nodes. And if you want to max weapons (except those weapon nodes) you'd only need 1 of ANY kind to do it. Boating doesn't have a big advantage with the new weapons tree. You only need a couple extra points if you want multiple kinds of weapon specific nodes, which isn't a big deal. Most of your investment will be non-specific either way.

3. Keep in mind that the firepower tree takes a TON more points of investment than survival. It's not like you can't do any firepower if you do survival either. Working with just the nodes that would fill out firepower, you could max survival AND get some firepower nodes in addition. And by the way, surviving longer DOES equate to more damage since you'll have more time on the field. (Assuming you are able to fire back)

These trees aren't equal investment value NOR are they exclusive.

4. You may have a point in this case, but keep in mind that we were already skilling these before (without a choice). I can see plenty of mechs that may only need one or the other. Given, one of the two should always be useful, but both won't always be needed.

5. There will always be min-maxing. NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO. But I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be here. Most of the "gates" have ended up being nodes that ARE useful, but not exactly what you may be going for. They aren't junk though, not entirely.

I only needed to experiment a little bit with the skill tree to realize that I can take part of 4-5 trees by forsaking portions of each that I don't need for the particular mech with a particular build. Maxing out a tree is usually unnecessary.

You're right though that meta won't change much. But I see no effect on DPS. You just have to choose between DPS + x + y, vs. x + y + z + [w?]. Yes, with any particular mech with any particular build there will generally be a most optimal way to skill it. But it's no longer 1 way to skill for EVERY MECH AND BUILD. Which is what the skill tree is attempting to solve.

[Destructicus]

Paul: The Skill Tree is being implemented for numerous reasons, all of which bring MWO forward in terms of 'Mech customization, personalization of how your 'Mech performs, and giving us a few more avenues for increasing depth of play. MechWarrior Online and all other MechWarrior titles have always been about customizing a 'Mech and trying the build that you have created


"We really wanted to encourage customization, so we built a tree that encourages boating"

k

Edited by Destructicus, 13 May 2017 - 01:26 PM.

[Deathlike]

The OP makes too much sense. We can't have that here.

[MischiefSC]

Gamuray, on 13 May 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

I don't see a ton of math. Mostly speculation..

1. If you want to keep brawling, you have the ability to invest back into mobility, specifically turning. You may have to sacrifice something else, but that's the point of a skill TREE. You don't get everything. And that long range guy that didn't invest will no longer be able to keep up in a brawl even with a large engine. So you actually have an advantage now.

Keep in mind, part of hide and poke is being able to change direction well. Can't do that without investment. As for jumpjets, they'll still be bad on heavy chassis like before. This hurts poking just as much as brawlers, because poking out will take longer and result in more return fire.

Oh, and Night Gyr already had access to buffs.. it just needs to choose them now. If they choose to invest into sniping, as you mentioned, they'll have horrid mobility and be dead meat if a brawl occurs.

2. The most recent skill tree rework (https://mwomercs.com...d-chris-lowrey/) has VERY FEW weapon specific nodes. And if you want to max weapons (except those weapon nodes) you'd only need 1 of ANY kind to do it. Boating doesn't have a big advantage with the new weapons tree. You only need a couple extra points if you want multiple kinds of weapon specific nodes, which isn't a big deal. Most of your investment will be non-specific either way.

3. Keep in mind that the firepower tree takes a TON more points of investment than survival. It's not like you can't do any firepower if you do survival either. Working with just the nodes that would fill out firepower, you could max survival AND get some firepower nodes in addition. And by the way, surviving longer DOES equate to more damage since you'll have more time on the field. (Assuming you are able to fire back)

These trees aren't equal investment value NOR are they exclusive.

4. You may have a point in this case, but keep in mind that we were already skilling these before (without a choice). I can see plenty of mechs that may only need one or the other. Given, one of the two should always be useful, but both won't always be needed.

5. There will always be min-maxing. NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO. But I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be here. Most of the "gates" have ended up being nodes that ARE useful, but not exactly what you may be going for. They aren't junk though, not entirely.

I only needed to experiment a little bit with the skill tree to realize that I can take part of 4-5 trees by forsaking portions of each that I don't need for the particular mech with a particular build. Maxing out a tree is usually unnecessary.

You're right though that meta won't change much. But I see no effect on DPS. You just have to choose between DPS + x + y, vs. x + y + z + [w?]. Yes, with any particular mech with any particular build there will generally be a most optimal way to skill it. But it's no longer 1 way to skill for EVERY MECH AND BUILD. Which is what the skill tree is attempting to solve.

Except every mech got a mobility nerf from live. Everyone should fill out the Mobility tree save for 2 pts in arm pitch. Anyone who doesn't do that is getting nerfed on mobility twice and is giving up speed tweak and optimal high value mobility tweaks. Any good Night Gyr will have mobility, ops and about 19 pts of firepower.

If you're not maxing all but 2 points on mobility and ops then 16-19 pts in firepower you're doing it wrong in 99% of mechs and builds. What are you neglecting on ops and mobility and to get what?

You put 9 pts in survival and 9 in firepower and I'll put 18 in firepower and we can duel. At which point we can see which is better - 5 pts of armor in your CT and ST is a fair trade for 2x the quirks in range, cooling and cooldown.

Cooldown quirks are not just a few extra damage. They mean that when you and I are shooting 50 or alphas I'll get 1 more before overheat and I'll shoot first both for more damage at range and before you cycle. Which means killing you before you get the last shot off. That 5 pts won't save you anything.

[Khobai]

Quote

I don't see how it's any worse than the module system. Where each module only effects one weapon and you had limited module slots. If anything the firepower tree was better the other way.

the module system was bad and encouraged boating too

they need a system that doesnt encourage boating and rewards mixed loadouts equally

[DjPush]

Or... I can do what ever the hall I want. I plan on spending many hours toying with the new system. Tweeking my builds to fit my play style. I wish you would stop assuming everyone plays this game the same as the point-click insta-jibbers.

[Khobai]

Quote

I wish you would stop assuming everyone plays this game the same as the point-click insta-jibbers.

the problem isnt that people dont play that way

the problem is that it makes that playstyle even more effective

brawlers get bent over without lube and long range instagib builds get even stronger

the skill tree doesnt really address the problems with the current meta at all, and actually makes it worse

Edited by Khobai, 13 May 2017 - 06:22 PM.

[EgoSlayer]

DjPush, on 13 May 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:

Or... I can do what ever the hall I want. I plan on spending many hours toying with the new system. Tweeking my builds to fit my play style. I wish you would stop assuming everyone plays this game the same as the point-click insta-jibbers.

Yep Already covered in the original post

MischiefSC, on 13 May 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

<snip>
. The main change of the skill tree is opening up a wide range of ways for people to gimp themselves vs players making smart skill choices in addition to mech build choices. Make smart choices and the skill tree is just another advantage good players can leverage (at the cost of reduced customization options).

[El Bandito]

MischiefSC, on 13 May 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

The skill tree won't be a big change to the meta aside from pushing back the recent rise of viable brawling back to poke. It also leans back into poptarting and ppc/Gauss because a nerf to DPS % hurts high DPS builds over already low DPS builds, narrowing the gap between high alpha, low DPS and low alpha, high DPS to favor high alpha over high DPS. Combined with the mobility nerfs it rewards Go Big builds over Run Cool. The main change of the skill tree is opening up a wide range of ways for people to gimp themselves vs players making smart skill choices in addition to mech build choices. Make smart choices and the skill tree is just another advantage good players can leverage (at the cost of reduced customization options).

This is why I have been practicing with the poptart Nyr for the last month, in QP.

[JC Daxion]

MischiefSC, on 13 May 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

I appreciate that PGI is trying to make good choices with the skill tree. I'm not posing a rant thread - just some math and reality to consider when building your mechs and skilling them up.

1. Mobility reduction increases the value of poke/pop mechs


2. Boat 1 weapon type

With the new point based system you'll get way more value out of ballistics + PPCs or just lasers or just missiles as you can avoid splitting points among multiple weapons. You can no longer have a middle module and a ballistic module and run both at comparable value - the nature of gating means tradeoffs are uneven. Boat 1 weapon type, maximize its functionality.

This change baffled me. Now i do like that we can get some general sooner, But they need to gate more behind nodes you don't need. This would naturally make non-boats get skills they need, not making them spend 4-6 extra points to get said points.


Weapon tree is almost there..



as for the others stuff, much of that can be changed with balance. The only reason why peek and poke is a thing is because of weapon balance. IMO simply increasing the cooldown on long range weapons is the main issue here... the problem is even if you get close, the long range weapons are still pretty good for the most part.


So yea, future balance.. and of course some good data from going live to see how it all plays out.

[MischiefSC]

There's going to be a lot of low to lower mid level players trying to justify why their bad skill tree choices are okay and math doesn't work the way it works and everyone in the game who is better than them just doesn't realize the genius of it. Just like there is with LRMs and derp mech builds.

The real difference is that derps in derp builds will derp the skill tree now too.

Conversely good players who know how math works and understand the difference between winning and losing will see the viability of many builds that are currently played decline and have fewer actually 'good' mechs and build options to choose from.

Outreach Oscar the Metahog will pop his head up from his burrow in Pugstompers Knob, see the shadow cast by the Skill Tree and go back in, predicting 6 months of poptarting and long range laservomit.

[R Valentine]

Coolant, on 13 May 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

This is only valid if you are taking full direct damage to one location. If it is lasers/Clan Ballistics/LRM's you spread that damage all over.

You still only get that bonus once per match, where weapon bonus are there every time you pull the trigger. The exception is mechs with strong structure/armor quirks, who get the most out of percentage based armor/structure nodes. Anyone else should skip them entirely.