106 replies to this topic

[J0anna]

Anything with acceleration below 13 is too sluggish to play, at least with 13, you can max kinetic burst and be playable. worst part of this patch is that DWF, KDK, Atlas, and King Crabs are worthless (haven't tied the mauler, but don't really want to), I'm not even bothering to apply SP to them. Even the Mad IIc is only just barely playable with near maximum mobility.

Edited by J0anna, 20 May 2017 - 05:32 PM.

[Duvanor]

Maximized Kinetic Burst brings my Spirit Bear to a whopping acceleration of 7.7kp/h per second. That means 7 skillpoints in Kinetic Burst für a gain of 1.51 kp/h acceleration.

Light Mechs get higher percentages in the survival tree to make that viable for their low armor and structure values. Perhaps PGI should take a similar approach for 100t mechs.

Edited by Duvanor, 20 May 2017 - 06:45 PM.

[Khobai]

PGI made the same mistake with engine decoupling they did with quirks

they tried to use it for something it wasnt supposed to be used for: IS vs Clan balance

The only thing engine decoupling was supposed to be for was making sure heavies/assaults with big engines werent as agile as mediums. Thats it. Thats all PGI had to do.

All they had to do was give every mech consistent acceleration/agility based on its tonnage. Thats it. You had one job to do and you failed at it PGI.

They screwed it up bigtime. Now we have some heavies that are more agile than lights. We have lights that move like garbage trucks. And we have mechs in the same weight classes that have huge disparities in agility.

[Duvanor]

I get it with some of the Mechs. Linebacker, Victor, Gargoyle, Executioner. Mechs like these have way more acceleration than others of the same weight class. PGI wants to put emphasis on their speed. I am okay with that. But why are some like the MAD IIC or Mauler so slow. And what would be so hard in giving 100t Mechs at least an acceleration of 10 or at least the Spirit Bear that is supposed to be just as agile as the Executioner some kind of Quirk or hardcoded boost over other Kodiaks?

Edited by Duvanor, 20 May 2017 - 07:11 PM.

[Star Colonel Silver Surat]

Duvanor, on 20 May 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

And what would be so hard in giving 100t Mechs at least an acceleration of 10 or at least the Spirit Bear that is supposed to be just as agile as the Executioner some kind of Quirk or hardcoded boost over other Kodiaks?

Just curious, but where did you read it was supposed to be just as agile as the Executioner? In the lore story on this website, it spends the whole story either powered down or standing in one place.

[Xetelian]

That is an outrageous difference.


My Atlas feels like I'm walking in quicksand and it takes forever to reach top speed and has no MASC.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Cub, on 18 May 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

My god I hope so.



I'm painfully aware of this, as are all 100 ton assault pilots. The Dire Whale, Atlas, and King Crab have been devastated with the new engine decoupling. But rule does not apply to all weight brackets as many of the acc/dec rates boggle the mind. I actually went through and noted down all of them for at least 1 variant of each mech:

Lights
Adder Prime= Acc: 43.8 / Dec: 65.7
Arctic Cheetah Prime= Acc: 50 / Dec: 84.16
Commando-20 = Acc: 80 / Dec: 140
Firestarter 9-E = Acc: 43.08 / Dec: 65.7
Jenner-D = Acc: 63.85 / Dec: 85
Jenner IIC = Acc: 50 / Dec: 72.14
Kit Fox = Acc: 50 / Dec: 84.16
Locust-IV = Acc: 84.6 / Dec: 182.5
Mist Lynx Prime = Acc: 59.24 / Dec: 113
Panther -10k = Acc: 43.08 / Dec: 65.7
Spider – 5V = Acc: 75.39 / Dec: 111.66
Urbanmech – R63 = Acc: 50 / Dec: 84.16
Wolfhound – 2 = Acc:54.63 / Dec: 76.42
Mediums
Blackjack – 1 = Acc: 31.55 / Dec: 42.77
Bushwacker – X1 = Acc: 26.94 / Dec: 32.27
Centurion 9-1 = Acc: 29.26 / Dec: 37
Cicada 3-M = Acc: 54.63 / Dec: 68.87
Crab 27 = Acc: 29.26 / Dec: 37
Enforcer – 1N = Acc: 29.26 / Dec: 37
Griffin – IN = Acc: 26.94 / Dec: 32.27
Hunchback – 4G = Acc: 29.26 / Dec: 37
Hunchback IIC = Acc: 20.02 / Dec: 31
Hunstman Prime = 29.26 / Dec: 37
Ice Ferret Prime = Acc: 62.2 / Dec: 62.77
Kintaro = Acc:33.86 / Dec: 36.36
Nova Prime = Acc: 29.26 / Dec: 37
Phoenix Hawk – 1 = Acc: 52.31 / Dec: 57.77
Shadow Cat Prime = Acc: 39.78 / Dec: 50.72
Shadow Hawk – 2H = Acc: 26.94 / Dec: 32.27
Stormcrow Prime = Acc: 31.55 / Dec: 35
Trebuchet -7M = Acc: 29.26 / Dec: 37
Vindicator 1SIB = Acc: 31.55 / Dec: 42.77
Viper Prime = Acc: 83.09 / 97.87
Heavies
Archer – 2R = Acc: 20.2 / Dec: 22.14
Black Knight – 6 = Acc: 24.63 / Dec: 22.66
Cataphract – 3D = Acc: 20.2 / Dec: 22.14
Catapult – C1 = Acc: 22.33 / Dec: 25
Dragon – 1N = Acc: 47.71 / Dec: 40.83
Ebon Jaguar Prime = Acc: 22.33 / Dec: 25
Grasshopper – 5J = Acc: 29.26 / Dec: 26.42
Hellbringer Prime = Acc: 22.33 / Dec: 25
Jagermech – DD = Acc: 22.33 / Dec: 25
Linebacker Prime = Acc: 49.94 / Dec: 40.19
Mad Dog Prime = Acc: 24.63 / Dec: 28.33
Marauder -3R = Acc: 24.63 / Dec: 22.66
Night Gyr Prime = Acc: 13.11 / Dec: 17.66
Orion – P = Acc: 17.72 /Dec: 19.66
Orion IIC = Acc: 17.72 / Dec: 19.66
Quickdraw -4G = Acc: 47.71 / Dec: 40.83
Rifleman -3N = Acc: 24.63 / Dec: 28.33
Summoner Prime = Acc: 40.79 / Dec: 31.78
Thunderbolt -5S = Acc: 22.33 / Dec:25
Timber Wolf Prime = Acc: 19.48 / Dec: 21.63 (other variants 17.72/19.66)
Warhammer – 6R = Acc: 20.2 / Dec: 22.14
Assualts
Atlas – D = Acc: 6.19 / Dec: 11
Awesome – BQ = Acc: 15.41 / Dec: 17.5
Banshee – LM = Acc: 17.72 / Dec: 15.52
Battlemaster – 1G = Acc: 20.02 / Dec: 18.23
Cyclops 11-A = Acc: 24.63 / Dec: 18.88
Direwolf Prime = Acc: 6.19 / Dec: 11
Executioner Prime = Acc: 24.63 / Dec: 17.89
Gargoyle Prime = Acc: 29.26 / Dec: 23.12
Highlander – HM = Acc: 22.33 / Dec: 18.05
Highlander IIC = Acc: 20.02 / Dec: 17.22
King Crab – 000 = Acc: 6.19 / Dec: 11
Kodiak -3 = Acc: 6.19 / Dec: 11
Marauder IIC = Acc: 13.11 / Dec: 15.58
Mauler – 1R = Acc: 10.79 / Dec: 13.88
Stalker – 5M = Acc: 13.11 / Dec: 15.58
Supernova – 1 = Acc: 15.41 / Dec: 15.55
Victor – DS = Acc: 24.63 / Dec: 21.25
Warhawk Prime = Acc: 17.72 / Dec: 17.35
Zeus – 6S = 26.94 / Dec: 22.18

You know when I heard about the Engine Decoupling, I thought there were assigning a baseline to all mechs of a given weight class and the difference between 1 75 ton mech and another would be how you spec you skills at least as far as accell, decel and turn went. Now I realize what PGI did wasn't provide a baseline, instead they are using it as a balancing tool, kind of like WoT used the hidden stat of "Ground Resistance" to balance out tanks that have high HP/Ton ratios.

Basically if I mech is performing too well, now they can "Tweak" its numbers and either make it a brick or a ballerina at will. I mean come on, the Night Gyr has a 13.11 Accel rate when all the other heavy mechs have like double the Accel rates? I mean the Night Gyr is probably the most advanced mech designed in this entire game, using prototype equipment and everything yet it has the worst handling characteristics of ANY heavy mech, even designs that are 200-300 years older than it?

[Cub]

Star Colonel Silver Surat, on 20 May 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

Just curious, but where did you read it was supposed to be just as agile as the Executioner? In the lore story on this website, it spends the whole story either powered down or standing in one place.

Just to support Duvanor, the Executioner was actually developed alongside the Kodiak according to sarna.net: http://www.sarna.net...oner_(Gladiator)

The Kodiak came out after the Executioner. One went Omni, the other went Battlemech. One could argue that the Spirit Bear is a hybrid of the two that Clan Ghost Bear was originally trying to accomplish. In the lore story, Laurie Tseng is set to spring a trap, much like a Ghost Bear, waiting for prey to get close and and then move with a great burst of speed to surprise her foe

[Snowbluff]

Athom83, on 19 May 2017 - 08:39 PM, said:

Misinterpretation. Machines do not equal humans. A Smaller machine can move itself faster when it has similar power as a larger machine as it takes far less force to move the smaller machine. A human child has untoned muscles, untrained nerve pathways, and no real stamina. A war machine is built with the top of the line movement systems, top of the line information and electrical pathways, and a suitable source of energy.

No, it's actually what you're saying. Kid is smaller, must be faster.

Quote

Constant training for decades. Lean musculature. Stamina. Efficient neurological pathways. Et Cetera. By your logic, everyone who is 30 years old, 200lb, and 6' 5'' should all be running at 26 mph.

Every war machine is optimized and carries a FUSION ENGINE and uses ADVANCED ARTIFICIAL MUSCLE, which is balanced and orientated BY A 3 TON GYRO.
I haven't had enough taking the piss out of you yet. Simply put that years of development has turned this:

7000 pounds, top speed of 440 mph
Into this:

43,340 pounds, top speed of 1,500 mph

Say that because the F22 is bigger, it must be slower and less nimble is a complete fallacy. 100 ton mechs are big, but the acceleration and maneuverability they have is simply unrealistically bad compared to other mechs, in addition to making no sense in a gameplay capacity.

[Darky101]

I buy a mech, tha it gets nerfed, thats why i don't buy mechs with real money anymore.

And yeah! One job!they had 1job!
Its part of the shady sale tactics: make it OP, lots of people will pay. Once you sold lots of packs nerf it.
Same thing will happen with the anihilator and the Mad Cat MKII.

[Snowbluff]

Darky101, on 20 May 2017 - 09:53 PM, said:

I buy a mech, tha it gets nerfed, thats why i don't buy mechs with real money anymore.

And yeah! One job!they had 1job!
Its part of the shady sale tactics: make it OP, lots of people will pay. Once you sold lots of packs nerf it.
Same thing will happen with the anihilator and the Mad Cat MKII.

Yeah it sucks. I bought the Kodiaks. The KDK3 probably needed the UAC ghost heat, armor, and torso nerfs, but the other sure as hell don't.

I want the MCII to be good, too. :l

[Athom83]

Snowbluff, on 20 May 2017 - 09:43 PM, said:

No, it's actually what you're saying. Kid is smaller, must be faster.

Cherry picking info + misinforming others on meaning...

Snowbluff, on 20 May 2017 - 09:43 PM, said:

Every war machine is optimized and carries a FUSION ENGINE and uses ADVANCED ARTIFICIAL MUSCLE, which is balanced and orientated BY A 3 TON GYRO.

Yes, and when they have the SAME POWER, the one requiring less force will perform leagues better than one requiring more force. I did the math somewhere else and figured out that a 30 ton mech needs around 250,000 N of force while a 100 ton one needs around 600,000 N of force.

Snowbluff, on 20 May 2017 - 09:43 PM, said:

I haven't had enough taking the piss out of you yet. Simply put that years of development has turned this:
%20https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/P-51-361.jpg/300px-P-51-361.jpg
7000 pounds, top speed of 440 mph
Into this:

43,340 pounds, top speed of 1,500 mph

Say that because the F22 is bigger, it must be slower and less nimble is a complete fallacy. 100 ton mechs are big, but the acceleration and maneuverability they have is simply unrealistically bad compared to other mechs, in addition to making no sense in a gameplay capacity.

Wow... wow... you just compared a jet to a prop... apples to oranges.

To really compare correctly, compare that P51 to a Me 410; 24,000 lb, top speed of 388 mph (which it will never reach in anything but a vertical dive from several km up). But then again, that is a German machine and not one from the US. So how about the P61; 30,000 lb, 366 mph top speed (which again, it will never see in anything but a steep dive). Lets not forget the rate of climb. P51; 3,200 ft/min, P61; 2,500 ft/min. Hmmm... strange. You seem to be saying the bigger things get the faster they go... not seeing it here. Slight edit; Also, the F22 is vastly less nimble than any propeller plane. A Biplane could even dance around it if the F22 was going slow enough. Try to turn to quickly in the F22, the pilot blacks out. Pull the same maneuver in the P51, the pilot is fine.

But lets get to your "years of development" statement. While its true most of the galaxy has been in technological stagnation while the clans advance in tech. IIRC, the clan technicians were looked down upon in their society and were not up to advancing nor maintaining technology in a meaningful way after a while. Also IIRC, myomer has gone largely unchanged since the Star League by either side.

Now, you are getting me so wrong. I also think the Kodiak took a little heavy of a hit with the nerf bat. However I also think that others in that weight area have not been hit hard enough (Banshee, Cyclops, etc). Now I know people think that they've lost to much mobility with the desync. However, instead of starting with buffs we start with nerfs to every thing else. I thoroughly enjoy my Atlas feeling like a lumbering giant. It makes me think before jumping immediately into the face of the enemy, something you should be doing before throwing away a multi-million C-Bill mech that takes a long time to repair/replace and could potentially mean the loss of entire systems if you lose it. I just don't want this to become CoD: Mech Fighter.

Edited by Athom83, 20 May 2017 - 10:34 PM.

[Snowbluff]

Athom83, on 20 May 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

Slight edit; Also, the F22 is vastly less nimble than any propeller plane. A Biplane could even dance around it if the F22 was going slow enough. Try to turn to quickly in the F22, the pilot blacks out. Pull the same maneuver in the P51, the pilot is fine.

Well considering that the F22 is definitively supermaneuverable, can perform post stall maneuvers where the a/c has no momentum.

It's has trust vectoring for supersonic high altitude maneuvering (where there's literally not enough air to maneuver at all for a prop plane) , which is kind of like a MASC when it comes to parlor tricks like this.

Edited by Snowbluff, 20 May 2017 - 11:02 PM.

[Scythe Kagato]

tl;dr

caustic valley is not right at all.

death to that map, death to whoever conjured it up, and death to whoever approved it.

[Juodas Varnas]

Khobai, on 20 May 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

PGI made the same mistake with engine decoupling they did with quirks

they tried to use it for something it wasnt supposed to be used for: IS vs Clan balance

Which is totally why the Atlas got hit the hardest and the Arctic Cheetah was buffed the most by it, right?

[Vonbach]

Snowbluff, on 20 May 2017 - 10:59 PM, said:

Well considering that the F22 is definitively supermaneuverable, can perform post stall maneuvers where the a/c has no momentum.

It's has trust vectoring for supersonic high altitude maneuvering (where there's literally not enough air to maneuver at all for a prop plane) , which is kind of like a MASC when it comes to parlor tricks like this.

The F22 is also an over expensive piece of junk that doesn't work.

[Reza Malin]

Star Colonel Silver Surat, on 18 May 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

.....the exaggerated agility given to 100 tonners by PGI (now fixed).

Needs to be the focal point of this thread, and many others like it.

The SB does look like it has suffered though, as compared to most other assaults which were just brought into line. I am sure they will fix the SB.

Edited by Reza Malin, 21 May 2017 - 03:03 AM.

[Duvanor]

Star Colonel Silver Surat, on 20 May 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

Just curious, but where did you read it was supposed to be just as agile as the Executioner? In the lore story on this website, it spends the whole story either powered down or standing in one place.

Short answer: The Spirit Bear got a MASC like the Executioner and is just 5t heavier.

Longer answer: Look, the Spirit Bear got a MASC. It was advertised as an agile Mech that can use said MASC. Now have a look at the Spirit Bears MASC in the OPs video and then tell me honestly you think that it is working as intended. You can not use that MASC to turn, You can not use it for corner peeking. You can not use that MASC to accelerate from 0 on and you can not use it to speed down or get into reverse mode in a relevant amount of time. You also can not use it to escape any situation.

The only use the MASC on the Spirit Bear has currently is to give you a speed boost when you are already charging full speed ahead. That is not enough to justify the MASC on the Spirit Bear.

[Snowbluff]

Vonbach, on 21 May 2017 - 01:04 AM, said:

The F22 is working as I am watching it with my own eyes but I'll badmouth it anyway.

How does the cool aid taste in Russia?

Duvanor, on 21 May 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

Short answer: The Spirit Bear got a MASC like the Executioner and is just 5t heavier.

Longer answer: Look, the Spirit Bear got a MASC. It was advertised as an agile Mech that can use said MASC. Now have a look at the Spirit Bears MASC in the OPs video and then tell me honestly you think that it is working as intended. You can not use that MASC to turn, You can not use it for corner peeking. You can not use that MASC to accelerate from 0 on and you can not use it to speed down or get into reverse mode in a relevant amount of time. You also can not use it to escape any situation.

The only use the MASC on the Spirit Bear has currently is to give you a speed boost when you are already charging full speed ahead. That is not enough to justify the MASC on the Spirit Bear.

At 4 tons it is a huge investment. When you think about it, it's incredibly silly that you pay for tons to merely match another mech in terms of acceleration. Engine Decoupling overnerfed heavies and assaults. My little Locust is now my #1 mech.

[Athom83]

Snowbluff, on 21 May 2017 - 07:40 AM, said:

How does the cool aid taste in Russia?

1 F-22 costs $150 million. Its also too general purpose and is outperformed by older, role specific designs like the F-16. The F-16 only costs $15-19 million. You can field 10 F-16s for the price of 1 F-22. As a concept it works as intended. In practice, not so much. Even looking at the F-35, a newer fighter that outperforms the F-22 and still costs less per unit (when not taking into account the program cost, which I admit is far greater than the F-22).

Snowbluff, on 21 May 2017 - 07:40 AM, said:

At 4 tons it is a huge investment. When you think about it, it's incredibly silly that you pay for tons to merely match another mech in terms of acceleration. Engine Decoupling overnerfed heavies and assaults. My little Locust is now my #1 mech.

4 tons is indeed a huge investment for anything, other than a 100 ton mech or a clan mech. Oh wait... the Kodiak ticks both of those. What could you field for those 4 tons? Some ERML to overheat you when you fire as the SRMs will keep you at high heat? More ammo that could explode when your armor is shot away and you can't spend it fast enough? More heatsinks which do sweet FA beyond the 10 in the engine? Honeslty, name what you'd do with the spirit bear without the masc. Please post before and after builds.