14 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

So, I have a spreadsheet that I thought I would spread around for people to use.

You can find it here

You can download it from google docs, or copy it to your own google drive.

Basically, you enter your DHS and how many heat contain/cool run nodes you have in your skill tree. Then you enter the decimal value of your heat gen quirks as a positive number (i.e. -3.75 would be 0.0375) in the heat quirks box. The only areas you need to change are marked Green.

The spreadsheet allows you to determine how much heat per second you have (HPS), by selecting how many of each weapon you have for a clan or IS mech, and generates your total in the Red box. Enter that as your HPS next to the heat efficiency and it will generate your heat efficiency, time to hit heat cap, and show your total dissipation and your total heat cap.

Edited by Gyrok, 20 May 2017 - 06:09 PM.

[El Bandito]

Do "heat containment" and "cool run" skills in the new ST affect heatsinks? In the old skill tree those skills were not affected by heatsinks.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 May 2017 - 07:36 PM.

[M3 SABLE]

ehhh, it is comment only?

[Scyther]

Looks good, I would be happy to check it out to see if it answers my questions in this thread:
https://mwomercs.com...inment-testing/

I'm not google-docs-proficient but, as M3 Sable said, it is comment-only and I can't seem to put any new values in it.

[Ghogiel]

El Bandito, on 20 May 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

Do "heat containment" and "cool run" skills in the new ST affect heatsinks? In the old skill tree those skills were not affected by heatsinks.

There is a dev post somewhere saying heat containment is affected by external heatsinks, i think he said cool run is as well. But people keep saying containment sucks or might be bugged atm.

[Gyrok]

M3 SABLE, on 20 May 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

ehhh, it is comment only?

MadBadger, on 21 May 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

Looks good, I would be happy to check it out to see if it answers my questions in this thread:
https://mwomercs.com...inment-testing/

I'm not google-docs-proficient but, as M3 Sable said, it is comment-only and I can't seem to put any new values in it.

You can download it, or copy it to your own google drive. I made this doc comment only so that no one tinkered with my master copy.

[El Bandito]

Ghogiel, on 21 May 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

There is a dev post somewhere saying heat containment is affected by external heatsinks, i think he said cool run is as well. But people keep saying containment sucks or might be bugged atm.

Really need a source on this, cause the potential difference is big.

[Spheroid]

Heat containment is not bugged.

I leveled two stock Ebons with 2x LPLAS + 3x mlas.

The first build took me to 50% after one alpha. The second test was with operations fully unlocked. The alpha heat was 46%.

The other Ebon chassis I went full heat reduction under the firepower tree. There the alpha was 44%.

[Scyther]

@Spheroid, you say Heat Containment is not 'bugged', meaning it does work. However, it does not work as advertised.

@Gyrok: Poked at Google a bit and got your spreadsheet copied over, plugged the mech numbers from my heat-test mech into it (this thread: https://mwomercs.com...inment-testing/). 10 Internal DHS, 10 External, 4 IS PPCs, 5 Cool Run, 4 Heat Containment, no -HeatGen.

Sheet calculates 72.8 Heat Capacity, meaning firing 4 PPCs simultaneously for 69.92 total heat + ghost heat should run the heat bar up to about 96% and not shut down.

Fire 4 PPCs, mech shuts down.

As far as I can tell, your spreadsheet calculates what the Dec.2016 patch notes and recent dev comments say Heat Capacity / Heat Containment / DHS should give. Unfortunately (unless I am doing something wrong, or 4 PPCs give more than 69.92 heat - taken from Smurfy ghost heat page), what PGI says happens does not match what actually does happen.

[Gyrok]

MadBadger, on 22 May 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

@Spheroid, you say Heat Containment is not 'bugged', meaning it does work. However, it does not work as advertised.

@Gyrok: Poked at Google a bit and got your spreadsheet copied over, plugged the mech numbers from my heat-test mech into it (this thread: https://mwomercs.com...inment-testing/). 10 Internal DHS, 10 External, 4 IS PPCs, 5 Cool Run, 4 Heat Containment, no -HeatGen.

Sheet calculates 72.8 Heat Capacity, meaning firing 4 PPCs simultaneously for 69.92 total heat + ghost heat should run the heat bar up to about 96% and not shut down.

Fire 4 PPCs, mech shuts down.

As far as I can tell, your spreadsheet calculates what the Dec.2016 patch notes and recent dev comments say Heat Capacity / Heat Containment / DHS should give. Unfortunately (unless I am doing something wrong, or 4 PPCs give more than 69.92 heat - taken from Smurfy ghost heat page), what PGI says happens does not match what actually does happen.

My numbers are taken off the skill nodes in game for those nodes. If PGI is falsely advertising...then that is their fault.

However...the math is accurate according to what the game and patch notes say.

Now...smurfy numbers may be old for Ghost heat...I did not dabble into that at all...it could be entirely possible that PPCs generate a few more points of ghost heat than before. It is also more than possible that something is bugged

Edited by Gyrok, 22 May 2017 - 12:18 PM.

[Scyther]

@Gyrok:
I may not have been clear. The skill node numbers, I assume, are accurate. I used the +1.5 Heat Capacity per DHS, as you did, the same 30 base, etc. etc. My calculations came out the same as yours, I basically used your spreadsheet to see if there was a step or a number I was missing.

The problem comes down to, PGI's published numbers give a Heat Capacity 72.8, PGI's/Smurfy's/MWO Heat Calculator give the heat from 4 PPCs to be 69.92, mechs don't shut down at 96% heat so... why does the mech shut down?

Various threads have commented that something is 'off' in PGI's heat capacity calculations for some time, so I suspect the issue is there. It could be a change in PPC heat/ghost heat but I've seen nothing (yet) saying Smurfy's numbers are wrong on this. The math was published by PGI some time back: http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/

Regardless, the utility of Heat Containment is unknown and various Heat Capacity calculations are somewhat up in the air until it can be determined what the actual values are.

[Gyrok]

MadBadger, on 22 May 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

@Gyrok:
I may not have been clear. The skill node numbers, I assume, are accurate. I used the +1.5 Heat Capacity per DHS, as you did, the same 30 base, etc. etc. My calculations came out the same as yours, I basically used your spreadsheet to see if there was a step or a number I was missing.

The problem comes down to, PGI's published numbers give a Heat Capacity 72.8, PGI's/Smurfy's/MWO Heat Calculator give the heat from 4 PPCs to be 69.92, mechs don't shut down at 96% heat so... why does the mech shut down?

Various threads have commented that something is 'off' in PGI's heat capacity calculations for some time, so I suspect the issue is there. It could be a change in PPC heat/ghost heat but I've seen nothing (yet) saying Smurfy's numbers are wrong on this. The math was published by PGI some time back: http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/

Regardless, the utility of Heat Containment is unknown and various Heat Capacity calculations are somewhat up in the air until it can be determined what the actual values are.

That may be true...PGI is not known for supremely good mathematical systems...or coding.

[Ghogiel]

El Bandito, on 21 May 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

Really need a source on this, cause the potential difference is big.

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5745303

[El Bandito]

Ghogiel, on 22 May 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5745303

Cheers!

[Wattila]

Ghogiel, on 22 May 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5745303

Many people have complained heat containment is broken. I also did a rough test using two duplicate 5LPL grasshoppers, one with max heat containment and some heat gen (+15% and -1.5%) and one with max heat gen (-10.5%). I know it's not very scientific, but bear with me. The mech in question has 6 external DHS and 10 truedubs, which would give it 59 points of heat capacity, I believe (if it's 1.5 per external DHS). 59*1.15 results in 67.85 heat cap if the skill works correctly. The test was conducted on forest colony, which should be heat neutral (0% resting heat).

Alpha strike resulted in heat containment build reaching 85% heat and heat gen build 84%. The full alpha with full heat gen setup should indeed result in around 84% ((56*0.895 / 59 = ~0.849). However, the result for heat containment setup should be around 81% ((56*0.985) / 67.85 = ~0.813). If the heat containment only worked on the base 30 (?) heat cap, we should end up at (56*0.985) / 63.5 = ~0.869, which is dangerously close to the 85% mark considering my eyeball readings can probably be off by around 2% due to heat dissipation and human error. I'm confused now, but maybe the methodology is just too inaccurate or my math skills are crap. However, it's not impossible that the PGI dev is simply wrong (he or someone else could've made a commit, overwriting the code, or something), and heat containment still works on base heat capacity like it did before the skill tree patch.

Also quoting another person who did some testing in another thread.

Palfatreos, on 22 May 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

So i did a test on night gyr on 2 maps (vitric forge, frozen city) with 2 erppc no extra heatsink (10 extr,2 internal from engine locked) standing still.

0 heat cont node : game gimme 52% heat both map. theory 100*28 heat /53 heat cap = 52.83 %

5 heat cont node : game gimme 48% heat both map.
Theory 100*28/60.95 = 45.94% (heat cont affect both 30 base cap and addiaontal heatsink.
Theory 100*28/57.5 = 48.70% (heat cont only affect 30 base cap which mean + 0.9 heat cap per node)

So it seems PGI was wrong about there own mechanic if they ever stated that. (cant be arsed to test it further in detail though this as far i go)

Edited by Wattila, 23 May 2017 - 02:34 AM.