99 replies to this topic

[Scyther]

To be fair, Gyrok is not claiming that Clan MPL should be equivalent to IS LPL. He was responding to a comment from Valhallan. (Same for the assault vs medium comment, that was Valhallans.)

[Karl Streiger]

Hm - what skill tree did was to bring the underperformers back to light.
And the performance of a Nova with 6 ERMLAS most range quirks and a TC3 is solid.
Its though, its mobile, has good range (502m) and - adequate firepower (compared with the weight of the loadout)


I don't give a "something" about vanilla cheese mechs like MAD IIC; Kodiak; Night Gyr or TImberWolf....

Edited by Karl Streiger, 28 May 2017 - 04:32 AM.

[Chados]

MadBadger, on 28 May 2017 - 04:24 AM, said:

To be fair, Gyrok is not claiming that Clan MPL should be equivalent to IS LPL. He was responding to a comment from Valhallan. (Same for the assault vs medium comment, that was Valhallans.)

That's true, but what Val was getting at is that the HBK is nearly as strong under the right circumstances as the BLR. Gyrok took it in what struck me as a different direction, that being that it isn't fair for the BLR's large pulse lasers to range the HBK-IIC's mediums. I've seen him imply in the past that Clan MPL should be the direct equivalent of IS LPL like that. And I think that's illogical. In my opinion, LPLs, Clan or IS, ought to be the direct equivalents of each other with a few technical issues because of the relevant tech bases. Like IS LPLs being heavier and shorter duration, while Clan LPLs are hotter and longer-ranged, but lighter. And Clan equipment in general *needs* to be lighter so omnimechs actually can carry enough guns to matter in a fight, omnis take a beating with all the locked gear. Look at the 70-ton Summoner, it can't pack dual AC10s and two medium lasers, which a 60 ton Rifleman can do all day every day. Frankly, it is the advent of the IICs that really unbalanced things. It is the 3060 tech that will go a long way toward rebalancing that, because then IS is going to have weaponry and LFEs that take a step closer to parity, and you're going to see giganerfage of IS energy quirks and mobility base stats next month to compensate, you watch. It's not an accident that the very best Clan mechs all are IIC chassis other than the NTG and TBR. And isn't the NTG quirked? The IICs were supposed to be second line mechs that were the province of the solahma etc. In lore, the Executioner was a better mech than the Kodiak, for example. Show me how that's true in game, because it's not. The KDK and especially the KDK-3 is still the premier assault mech, after the skil tree, after IS quirks, after everything.

I like some Clan mechs a lot. Thors and Masakaris particularly. I like the Gladiator for what it is, and I like the original MAD-IIC and Scorch...who doesn't like the Scorch? They're still going to have that XL engine next month. They're still going to have greater average mobility. IS is going to be in average tankier and having to deal with heavier gear. IS is going to be close to a lot of the omnimechs. The non-omnis, though, that's going to be interesting. I think the gap will be closer, in the end. And isn't that a good thing? The real unbalancers are in my view going to be rotary ACs on IS side and heavy lasers on Clan side. Both have the potential to break the game if done wrong.

[Valhallan]

Chados, on 28 May 2017 - 05:36 AM, said:

It is the 3060 tech that will go a long way toward rebalancing that, because then IS is going to have weaponry and LFEs that take a step closer to parity, and you're going to see giganerfage of IS energy quirks and mobility base stats next month to compensate, you watch. It's not an accident that the very best Clan mechs all are IIC chassis other than the NTG and TBR. And isn't the NTG quirked? The IICs were supposed to be second line mechs that were the province of the solahma etc. In lore, the Executioner was a better mech than the Kodiak, for example. Show me how that's true in game, because it's not. The KDK and especially the KDK-3 is still the premier assault mech, after the skil tree, after IS quirks, after everything.

As i said in another thread, i wouldn't mind omnis being able to change everything, in exchange for losing pod swap ability, it could be a toggle or something. While this does technically make IS's life worse in general, it's not like the clans aren't just spamming the cheddarmechs anyway and these aren't going to change since its the geometry that's the primary factor (unlocked TBR will still lose to cheesegyr, unlocked nova to hbk2). The NGYR got a cd quirk of 5% on gauss and 5% ballistics, its there but removing it isn't remove it's cheddar.

Depending on how PGI implements it, 3060 tech won't do as much as you think for IS, most XL-builds need that weight save to be able to mount the weapons that they do (most still have to shave off leg/arm armor), LFE only really benefits STD builds such as the fatlass or MPL-brawl TDR. UAC10/20 still have the slot limitation/position problems, ER weapons are Hotter than what we have now (making them less heat efficient than Clans, 5/5 erml ), and our HS are still 3-slots with endo and ferro still costing 14 and ferro still giving less savings . MRM/RL's could be interesting but clans are getting All purpose ATM's. Heavy gauss is a trap. HPPC is questionable because of min range. Considering how they work Clan-uac's now are probably similar to how RAC's are gonna be (high damage but bullet splatter until you get jammed). It's always possible that the extra stats, like burn-time or jamming, are tweaked enough to be good, but i wouldn't count on it until they release it.

[Y E O N N E]

I think what everybody misses is that Clans and IS do not directly compete in exactly the same brackets.

Like, mid-range bread-and butter? The cMPL will win if the engagement is predominantly at ~400 meters or less. The IS will win if it's predominantly between 350 and 500 meters. Clans go back to winning if it's predominantly between 400 and 600 meters. In every case, the winning side is winning because it has better damage-over-duration and a better heat-profile for it. One can misconstrue this as the IS option being better because it is, indeed, the most flexible of the bunch; it is more effective under its optimum than the longer-ranged Clan option because of the short duration and it doesn't have as stiff a penalty above its optimum because of the double max range of the Large Pulse lasers.

But then you look at what it is built on and what PGI has had to do to make that flexibility worth it. The 'Mech runs hotter for the damage and requires heat gen quirks to compensate. It runs slower and requires speed tweak to get up there. It runs an XL and requires extra durability and agility to mitigate it. It's not quite long-ranged enough due to MedLas and needs range quirks (soon to maybe be a moot point with ERML).

There's a lot of balance deficits being compensated for in there.

[Insanity09]

So, math time.

IS gets 3.75% laser duration reduction per node, Clan gets 2.5%. But what does that mean?
Clan lasers have longer durations, so a smaller % benefit yields larger numbers.

Let's take the LPL. For each duration node...
IS gets a .0168s improvement in duration. Clan gets a .028s improvement.
Hmm.
How about ERL
IS .0469s Clan .0375
MPL?
IS .0225 Clan .0213
SPL?
IS .0188 Clan .0188

So, even though the Clans laser duration number % is lower, they don't necessarily get less benefit. SPL is a straight up tie, IS wins ERL, Clan gets LPL, and IS wins MPL by a mere 1/1000 of a second (ok, 12/10000) (which I call a wash).

IS gets the cooldown benefit, except for LRMs, which go to Clan. I'll still give this to IS, they need to win something.

Clan gets the range boon, because their ranges start out higher (or even, for some missiles), so even though the % is the same, they get more bang for the buck.

Heat Gen? Clan again, same reason as range.
I will also point out that the majority of IS mechs got their heat gen quirks reduced by at least 5% (often more), so in addition to getting less benefit from the skill tree, they are also running what are usually the main weapons for a chassis (most likely to have been quirked) hotter than they used to, and need more heat gen quirks just to get back to 'normal'.

So, sorry Clan apologists, the firepower tree ultimately seems like more of a plus for the clan mechs. (1 IS +, 2 Clan +, 2 ties)

As for the original premise of the thread, the quirks are not redundant as long as they are helping make mech viable.

[Gyrok]

Chados, on 28 May 2017 - 03:23 AM, said:

Let's parse this.

What Gyrok essentially is saying here is that Clan MEDIUM PL ought to equivalent-range IS LARGE PL, and that a Clan second-line, 50-ton MEDIUM mech ought to trade equally with an IS 85-ton, front-line ASSAULT mech.

Say what? That's an apples/oranges comparison if I ever saw one.

Now, if one compares Clan MPL with IS MPL, and using the IS prime MPL carrier, one sees a different dynamic. A Thunderbolt 5SS and the 6MPL HBK IIC are a better comparison. On the TDR-5SS, MPL range is a total +15% allowing for both the 5%MPL and 10% energy range quirk, and another ten from the tree for a total 25. IS MPL range is 220-440 unquirked. You'll get another 55m optimal, 110 max. Optimal range=275, max 540. On the HBK-IIC, they have native 330-561 range. So at optimal the HBK outranges the TDR significantly and at max paint scratching range, the HBK outranges its 15-ton heavier IS opponent by 21 meters. And that is with the HBK without ANY skills, fresh out of the store. Quod erat demonstrandum.

No...you are parsing that incorrectly.

Some other idiot compared the MPL to the LPL.

I am saying that a clan 50 ton medium should have higher base agility than an IS 85 ton assault. PERIOD.

I am also saying that lots of IS mechs have too much base agility, and too many clan mechs have the agility of a trash can filled with concrete.

Chados, on 28 May 2017 - 05:36 AM, said:

That's true, but what Val was getting at is that the HBK is nearly as strong under the right circumstances as the BLR. Gyrok took it in what struck me as a different direction, that being that it isn't fair for the BLR's large pulse lasers to range the HBK-IIC's mediums. I've seen him imply in the past that Clan MPL should be the direct equivalent of IS LPL like that. And I think that's illogical. In my opinion, LPLs, Clan or IS, ought to be the direct equivalents of each other with a few technical issues because of the relevant tech bases. Like IS LPLs being heavier and shorter duration, while Clan LPLs are hotter and longer-ranged, but lighter. And Clan equipment in general *needs* to be lighter so omnimechs actually can carry enough guns to matter in a fight, omnis take a beating with all the locked gear. Look at the 70-ton Summoner, it can't pack dual AC10s and two medium lasers, which a 60 ton Rifleman can do all day every day. Frankly, it is the advent of the IICs that really unbalanced things. It is the 3060 tech that will go a long way toward rebalancing that, because then IS is going to have weaponry and LFEs that take a step closer to parity, and you're going to see giganerfage of IS energy quirks and mobility base stats next month to compensate, you watch. It's not an accident that the very best Clan mechs all are IIC chassis other than the NTG and TBR. And isn't the NTG quirked? The IICs were supposed to be second line mechs that were the province of the solahma etc. In lore, the Executioner was a better mech than the Kodiak, for example. Show me how that's true in game, because it's not. The KDK and especially the KDK-3 is still the premier assault mech, after the skil tree, after IS quirks, after everything.

I like some Clan mechs a lot. Thors and Masakaris particularly. I like the Gladiator for what it is, and I like the original MAD-IIC and Scorch...who doesn't like the Scorch? They're still going to have that XL engine next month. They're still going to have greater average mobility. IS is going to be in average tankier and having to deal with heavier gear. IS is going to be close to a lot of the omnimechs. The non-omnis, though, that's going to be interesting. I think the gap will be closer, in the end. And isn't that a good thing? The real unbalancers are in my view going to be rotary ACs on IS side and heavy lasers on Clan side. Both have the potential to break the game if done wrong.

I have never implied, at any point, that a cMPL should be equal to an IS LPL. That is asinine, and ignorant.

The comment that the HBK is "almost as strong" as the BLR was also ridiculous. I pointed out that the comparison was absurd and moved along. All of you seem to be getting hung up on a comment that was originally trying to derail this thread instead of the points I was making.

Agility for clans = rekt. Agility for IS = OP.

Lasers are not balanced currently. Durations are still too short on the IS side, and still too long on the clan side, and being able to fire 3 Large class lasers without ghost heat is ridiculous and needs to die in a fire. Either both sides can, or no sides can.

THOSE are the points I am making. Someone trying to construe me saying anything other than that is missing the original post in its entirety.

Edited by Gyrok, 28 May 2017 - 04:51 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 28 May 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

I am saying that a clan 50 ton medium should have higher base agility than an IS 85 ton assault. PERIOD.

I am also saying that lots of IS mechs have too much base agility, and too many clan mechs have the agility of a trash can filled with concrete.

Let me ask you something. Bear with me, I need some exposition.

I have a Marauder. I have a Timberwolf. Both are 75 ton 'Mechs. Both can run at 80+ kph. One of them has ~34 tons of space, the other has ~26 tons while doing so. The one with 26 tons, ironically, carries more and better firepower than the one with 34 tons for about the same cooling.

What do you do to differentiate them?

Bear in mind that the Marauder has to spend nodes to get to 80+, the TBR does not. The Marauder has to spend nodes to augment its lackluster firepower, the TBR does not. The rule you have to work with is that these two 'Mechs should be performing roughly identically.

[Scyther]

Hmm, I am leery of the whole 'IS and Clan mechs of same weight class should perform roughly identically' concept. The problem is that the source material (BattleTech/MechWarrior games) specifically establish that they do not perform equally. So you either totally wreck the source material, or find some other way to balance them.

That is not the same thing as Gyrok's (and others) persistent, incorrect and foolish claims that the two sides are already balanced, or even more ridiculously, that IS side is somehow currently OP. To find 'some other way' to balance things, you first need to correctly assess and gauge the performance gap that exists between the two factions.

While we could make suggestions, at this point we really would be better off to await new tech, and the various balance passes PGI already has in the works (because you can be assured those are pretty much 'done deals' and player input is not a factor).

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 May 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

I think what everybody misses is that Clans and IS do not directly compete in exactly the same brackets.

Like, mid-range bread-and butter? The cMPL will win if the engagement is predominantly at ~400 meters or less. The IS will win if it's predominantly between 350 and 500 meters. Clans go back to winning if it's predominantly between 400 and 600 meters. In every case, the winning side is winning because it has better damage-over-duration and a better heat-profile for it. One can misconstrue this as the IS option being better because it is, indeed, the most flexible of the bunch; it is more effective under its optimum than the longer-ranged Clan option because of the short duration and it doesn't have as stiff a penalty above its optimum because of the double max range of the Large Pulse lasers.

But then you look at what it is built on and what PGI has had to do to make that flexibility worth it. The 'Mech runs hotter for the damage and requires heat gen quirks to compensate. It runs slower and requires speed tweak to get up there. It runs an XL and requires extra durability and agility to mitigate it. It's not quite long-ranged enough due to MedLas and needs range quirks (soon to maybe be a moot point with ERML).

There's a lot of balance deficits being compensated for in there.

I would actually say it looks more like this:

Clans > IS @ <=250m (cSPL range)

IS > Clans @ 250-600m (IS LPL range)

Clans > IS @ 600-800m (cLPL range)

IS > Clans @ >800m (IS ERLL range)

Now, there are some exceptions...but, generally, that seems to be the case on the whole.

The issue is that the flexibility of the IS lasers using either LPLs or LPL/ML is much greater than clans, and then IS dominate ERLL range with shorter burn times, and the ability to fire 3 at once on mechs that retained their range quirks.

So, with that being said, some parity needs to return to mid-range, and I think removing the fall off penalties on clan lasers would go a LONG way toward solving that.

Yeonne Greene, on 28 May 2017 - 04:52 PM, said:

Let me ask you something. Bear with me, I need some exposition.

I have a Marauder. I have a Timberwolf. Both are 75 ton 'Mechs. Both can run at 80+ kph. One of them has ~34 tons of space, the other has ~26 tons while doing so. The one with 26 tons, ironically, carries more and better firepower than the one with 34 tons for about the same cooling.

What do you do to differentiate them?

Bear in mind that the Marauder has to spend nodes to get to 80+, the TBR does not. The Marauder has to spend nodes to augment its lackluster firepower, the TBR does not. The rule you have to work with is that these two 'Mechs should be performing roughly identically.

The MAD has structure quirks already...it is much tankier than the TW too, due to better hit boxes.

Agility wise, they should be identical as they are both 75 ton mechs.

Weapons already differentiate the mechs enough.

[Gyrok]

MadBadger, on 28 May 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

Hmm, I am leery of the whole 'IS and Clan mechs of same weight class should perform roughly identically' concept. The problem is that the source material (BattleTech/MechWarrior games) specifically establish that they do not perform equally. So you either totally wreck the source material, or find some other way to balance them.

That is not the same thing as Gyrok's (and others) persistent, incorrect and foolish claims that the two sides are already balanced, or even more ridiculously, that IS side is somehow currently OP. To find 'some other way' to balance things, you first need to correctly assess and gauge the performance gap that exists between the two factions.

While we could make suggestions, at this point we really would be better off to await new tech, and the various balance passes PGI already has in the works (because you can be assured those are pretty much 'done deals' and player input is not a factor).

Ok, let us list pros and cons, as Benjamin Franklin would to make a decision:

Clan Pros:
-cXL engine
-lower tonnage weapons/equipment
-higher total damage over duration on lasers
-smaller DHS
-ERPPCs have splash damage
-omni-mechs allowing swapping pods
-7 slot endo/ferro

IS Pros:
-higher base agility
-structure quirks
-higher damage per tick on duration weapons
-range quirks
-single projectile ballistics
-lower heat weapons
-heat generation quirks
-ability to fire 3 large class lasers at once
-no GH on med/small class lasers fired together
-mostly humanoid chassis with more favorable hitboxes
-full range laser fall off
-more damage per SRM
-tighter SRM spread
-more effective Artemis system
-more durable Gauss rifle
-shorter weapon cooldown
-larger skill tree quirks
-no omni-mechs
-large amount of incoming tech
-IS have a 20 ton mech at all
-265 ton drop deck in FW

Clan Cons:
-multi projectile ballistic weapons
-reduced range laser fall off (except ERLL)
-longer duration on beam weapons
-higher heat generation
-no structure quirks
-no heat quirks
-no range quirks
-lower base agility
-larger SRM spread
-less effective artemis system
-less durable Gauss rifle
-ERPPCs have splash damage
-typically non-humanoid mechs with worse hitboxes
-negative quirks still remaining on some mechs
-omni-mechs lock engines and internals
-ghost heat on all small/medium class lasers together
-ghost heat on 3 large class lasers at once
-longer weapon cooldowns
-cXL ST penalty for speed loss/heat generation
-clan battlemechs have identical engine caps to IS mechs with same tonnage/engine
-smaller skill tree quirks
-relatively little incoming tech
-240T drop deck in FW
-1 damage to crit clan Gauss rifle

IS cons:
-lower total damage on beam duration weapons
-IS XL engine
-higher tonnage weapons/equip
-3 slot DHS
-shorter range weapons
-low engine caps artificially imposed by PGI
-14 slot endo/ferro
-no omni-mechs

Judging by that tally...I would say the IS is hands down at an advantage.

You can dispute it all you want, let me know if I left something off somewhere...but that list compiled is not showing clans as being ahead.

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 28 May 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

I would actually say it looks more like this:

Clans > IS @ <=250m (cSPL range)

IS > Clans @ 250-600m (IS LPL range)

Clans > IS @ 600-800m (cLPL range)

IS > Clans @ >800m (IS ERLL range)

Now, there are some exceptions...but, generally, that seems to be the case on the whole.

The issue is that the flexibility of the IS lasers using either LPLs or LPL/ML is much greater than clans, and then IS dominate ERLL range with shorter burn times, and the ability to fire 3 at once on mechs that retained their range quirks.

So, with that being said, some parity needs to return to mid-range, and I think removing the fall off penalties on clan lasers would go a LONG way toward solving that.

I don't agree. I think Clans roughly equal the IS between 250 and 400 meters, there's way too much situational give and take to say anything else at this bracket. Above that up to ~ 600 meters, the IS get ****-rekt by pop-tarts they can't compete against, as has been seen over and over and over again in the comp leagues. The LPL is great, but it's not so good that it stomps pop-tarts being used properly. Yeah, the BLR is pretty nasty, but it can't handle getting rushed at all and it's only in FW, where it doesn't compel the team to take a spread of bigs and smalls at once, where the battle line can get disgustingly good. But that cuts both ways, what am I supposed to do against a full battle line of MAD-IICs, Kodiaks, and Night Gyrs? That **** is just as disgusting.

At extreme range, there's a deficit. I do agree that 'Mechs like the Dragon are horrendously powerful in this bracket, but...they are also the only things that can answer the PPC-Gauss because the IS versions of both require way too great a sacrifice to use. And how do you propose to let the cERLL compete on duration without making it OP? It weighs 4 tons and occupies oneslot. It has superior inherent everything else, and the duration is the only real penalty it pays. You can't give it the same duration as an isERLL, not at all. It needs more tweaking than that, and careful tweaking, because the isERLL is just as hilariously bad (actually worse, because 675 m is too short) if it isn't quirked.

TBQH, I think it's more a case of certain specific FW maps being absolutely awful in design and forcing a lopsided fight regardless of anything else. Especially Boreal. My god, that is a stupid map.

Quote

The MAD has structure quirks already...it is much tankier than the TW too, due to better hit boxes.

Agility wise, they should be identical as they are both 75 ton mechs.

Weapons already differentiate the mechs enough.

It has structure quirks (+8 LT/RT and +12 CT, not that impressive), and it also has an enormous flank and an engine that gets it killed if any one side goes poof. Its geometry is pretty good at front forward, but it's also not that hard to isolate a single side even from the front; I do it literally every time I see an enemy Marauder. It takes me about the same amount of time to kill either one, unless the MAD is XL; then it's faster.

The weapons also only differentiate the two in the case that the TBR is better, period, and there's no recourse for the Marauder at 81 kph. It has to drop engine to maybe get competitive, but why should it have to sacrifice the speed to get the firepower when the TBR does not?

E: And have you tried a Linebacker, recently? Has as much armor as a 75 tonner, handles like a dream, and a stupendous amount of mid-close range firepower. This is going to sound strange, but 5x cSPL/cERML with 5x SRM2 is absurdly potent. And the damn thing runs at 97 kph without speed tweak.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 28 May 2017 - 05:40 PM.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 May 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

I don't agree.

You are talking to the Ilkhan of Clan Crocodile Tears... he is the biggest Clam Apologist on the forums, you can no more take his bulls.hit serious than you can Johhny Z hackusations

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 May 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

I don't agree. I think Clans roughly equal the IS between 250 and 400 meters, there's way too much situational give and take to say anything else at this bracket. Above that up to ~ 600 meters, the IS get ****-rekt by pop-tarts they can't compete against, as has been seen over and over and over again in the comp leagues. The LPL is great, but it's not so good that it stomps pop-tarts being used properly. Yeah, the BLR is pretty nasty, but it can't handle getting rushed at all and it's only in FW, where it doesn't compel the team to take a spread of bigs and smalls at once, where the battle line can get disgustingly good. But that cuts both ways, what am I supposed to do against a full battle line of MAD-IICs, Kodiaks, and Night Gyrs? That **** is just as disgusting.

Except that Clans have to gimp their back end of the drop deck to bring a KDK, or MAD-IIC, or more than 1 NTG. With 265 ton drop decks for IS, they can run 2 BLRs +95 tons of other mechs. The tonnage in FW needs to come down on that side, to be honest.

Quote

At extreme range, there's a deficit. I do agree that 'Mechs like the Dragon are horrendously powerful in this bracket, but...they are also the only things that can answer the PPC-Gauss because the IS versions of both require way too great a sacrifice to use. And how do you propose to let the cERLL compete on duration without making it OP? It weighs 4 tons and occupies oneslot. It has superior inherent everything else, and the duration is the only real penalty it pays. You can't give it the same duration as an isERLL, not at all. It needs more tweaking than that, and careful tweaking, because the isERLL is just as hilariously bad (actually worse, because 675 m is too short) if it isn't quirked.

I think letting clans fire 3 large class lasers at once solves that problem to be honest. I could deal with the duration if I could fire as many lasers at once. Otherwise, there is no real solution I see that does not completely change multiple aspects of both weapons, and PGI is not going to do that.

Quote

TBQH, I think it's more a case of certain specific FW maps being absolutely awful in design and forcing a lopsided fight regardless of anything else. Especially Boreal. My god, that is a stupid map.

Not disagreeing with you at all, but I doubt it changes as well. The ultimate issue is the fact that IS can get 2 waves of BLRs without running lights or light mediums for drops 3 & 4.

Quote

It has structure quirks (+8 LT/RT and +12 CT, not that impressive), and it also has an enormous flank and an engine that gets it killed if any one side goes poof. Its geometry is pretty good at front forward, but it's also not that hard to isolate a single side even from the front; I do it literally every time I see an enemy Marauder. It takes me about the same amount of time to kill either one, unless the MAD is XL; then it's faster.

TW suffers same, except it might as well be dead once the ST is gone...most of the loadouts that are effective are so hot that the loss of mobility and heat penalties make it ineffective. In addition, it has no structure quirks, and the STs are hilariously easy to isolate.

Quote

The weapons also only differentiate the two in the case that the TBR is better, period, and there's no recourse for the Marauder at 81 kph. It has to drop engine to maybe get competitive, but why should it have to sacrifice the speed to get the firepower when the TBR does not?

PGI artificially capped a lot of mechs with low engine caps. Mechs that might have otherwise been good with more mobility. I understand the initial thought, but I question the validity of the premise now.

As for TW better...I would say in some cases, yes. TW does lasers better, and probably SRMs as well, MAD does ballistics better, especially the BH with AC20 + energy. Different fits really, because of the hardpoint differences. TW is really only effective with ballistics in the arm, you cannot get the big ballistics into the ST, and with 1 damage to crit Gauss, forget putting that in your ST. Though, I will say one of my clan mates runs a large XL engine 5 LL MAD and he does amazing things with it. So, there is not as large a deficit there, plus with similar speed + better mobility, he can maneuver quite well in it.

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 28 May 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

You are talking to the Ilkhan of Clan Crocodile Tears... he is the biggest Clam Apologist on the forums, you can no more take his bulls.hit serious than you can Johhny Z hackusations

Yeonne and I are quite capable of having civil discourse without interruptions from peasants such as yourself. You can see your way out now. Kthxbai

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 28 May 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

Except that Clans have to gimp their back end of the drop deck to bring a KDK, or MAD-IIC, or more than 1 NTG. With 265 ton drop decks for IS, they can run 2 BLRs +95 tons of other mechs. The tonnage in FW needs to come down on that side, to be honest.

Does it matter when you've killed two waves of 'Mechs with your first drop? No, it doesn't.

I don't disagree that the tonnage disparity is a bit off, but IMHO the bigger issue is that you need to take an 85 tonner to counter 75 and 70 tonners, and it's been that way since June 2014.

Quote

I think letting clans fire 3 large class lasers at once solves that problem to be honest. I could deal with the duration if I could fire as many lasers at once. Otherwise, there is no real solution I see that does not completely change multiple aspects of both weapons, and PGI is not going to do that.

It's not that simple. 3x cERLL is similar damage and heat to 4x isERLL, It's 8 tons and 4 slots less. You need to implement a stupidly high ghost-heat cap for firing 4x cERLL together to stop people from just firing 4x cERLL together through the ghost. I already fire 3x or 4x cERLL through the ghost, depending on my 'Mech weight. Since it's a poke match, the rate of fire isn't that large of a concern unless they push up. If they push up, they aren't running ERLL so that problem doesn't exist.

Quote

TW suffers same, except it might as well be dead once the ST is gone...most of the loadouts that are effective are so hot that the loss of mobility and heat penalties make it ineffective. In addition, it has no structure quirks, and the STs are hilariously easy to isolate.

I don't think so. The MAD is actually dead. It is not even remotely comparable to might as well be dead because I still have to focus that TBR for a few more seconds to make it actually dead and, if I don't, then he still has guns left to threaten with. Yeah, heat penalty, but, also, half the firepower. I don't feel particularly penalized in the heat department with my Clan 'Mechs when the ST goes...in fact I don't even notice it because half my heat generation has also disappeared. I only really feel the speed penalty but...I'm now going nominal IS heavy speed. Seems like a small price to pay for being able to survive that and still pack superior cooling and firepower.

Quote

PGI artificially capped a lot of mechs with low engine caps. Mechs that might have otherwise been good with more mobility. I understand the initial thought, but I question the validity of the premise now.

Well, the MAD doesn't really have a low cap, except the BH2. The lack of a fast energy boat for the MAD is felt, but engine caps are not really where I was going with this. The bottom line here is that I have to spend more of my nodes to make up a greater amount of deficits than I do with the TBR. With the TBR, I need to make up for that agility, but I've already got the upper hand everywhere else.

Quote

As for TW better...I would say in some cases, yes. TW does lasers better, and probably SRMs as well, MAD does ballistics better, especially the BH with AC20 + energy. Different fits really, because of the hardpoint differences. TW is really only effective with ballistics in the arm, you cannot get the big ballistics into the ST, and with 1 damage to crit Gauss, forget putting that in your ST. Though, I will say one of my clan mates runs a large XL engine 5 LL MAD and he does amazing things with it. So, there is not as large a deficit there, plus with similar speed + better mobility, he can maneuver quite well in it.

The MAD does ballistics better...only when it sacrifices the speed. And now you begin to see the problem. There is a very good reason why the MAD gets superior agility, and it's because that's the only way you can feasibly drop the engine to get it into a maybe competitive position...but then the WHM still does it better at 5 tons less because it can bring an XL where the MAD cannot. Hell, it even does it better on a STD.

Notice that the WHM has agility that is barely any better than the TBR. IMHO, that little bit it does have is there as XL protection, otherwise it'd be just as sluggish.

5x ERLL on anything is going to look pretty decent, because at 740 meters most people can't really shoot back. Stick it in context of well-optimized and practiced opposition, though, and it loses to cERLL+Gauss and cERPPCs because it has shorter range and because 81 kph is not actually that fast and zeroing in on an ST gets it killed quick. The GHR-5P was good at ERLL specifically because it had unmatched short duration and extra range; the MAD has no such luxuries. It has what everybody else can have.

Personally, I run a large XL engine Marauder myself, for brawling, and do amazing things with it. That's more because the enemy are potatoes, though, than because the 'Mech is properly good. Just like your WHM-6D...it really doesn't have impressive quirks, it's all potatoes who don't know how to follow through with laser burns.

[Insanity09]

Ok, I apologize to all, but I simply must respond to the foolish pro/con list Gyrok just posted.

First off, you cannot assign equal value to all the items you listed. Just as an example, 7 slot endo/ff is not equivalent to more damage per SRM. (ooooh, please make me run the numbers on this, I'm sure I can prove the 7 slot FF is actually better)

Second, guess what? Every quirk you gave as an IS Pro, I can find at least one (multiple, actually) examples of Clan mechs that have those quirks too. Clans do get structure, heat, range, armor, etc. quirks. Off the list.
(I will grant that quirks are more common on the IS side, but... there is a reason for that you clearly don't wish to admit. Anyhow...)

Third, pick one or the other, things cannot be a pro for one side AND a con for the other. Drop deck tonnage, omnimech presence (which doesn't even belong on the pro/con list, btw), durable gauss, cXL vs IS XL, etc. Typically, you just leave the pro for the side that gets it. Cons, off the list.

Fourth, you cannot list something as both a pro and a con for the clan. ERPPC damage (both IS and Clan do 10 damage, clans just get a chance for bonus splash damage, thus all pro), cXL and cXL ST loss (part and parcel, all pro), etc.. Cons, off the list.

Fifth, IS has better agility. WRONG. Find an IS mech, now find and equal weight Clan mech with the same engine size, compare the numbers. Let's use IS BNC-LM and EXE-D, both 380XL engines, both 95 tons (I didn't cherry pick this, it was just the first direct comparison I ran across). Which has better agility numbers? The EXE-D. So, while it may be true in some cases, it is clearly not in others. Not an IS pro, off the list.

Sixth, you cannot list upcoming changes as a pro (or a con, for that matter), because we don't know the overall impact yet. New tech for IS is jam tomorrow, it doesn't mean a thing right now. New tech stuff, off the list.

Seventh, IS 'full range laser drop off'. If you look carefully at the stats for the lasers you will see that ALL of them, clan and IS alike have a straight line damage drop off graph from the end of their optimal range to their max range. Clans have higher ranges, both optimal and max. So, that's not news? Ah, but the Clan lasers have a higher percentage of their total range as optimal (e.g., cERML opt 405 max 688, 58.8% of its range is optimal, instead of the 50% for IS lasers). That means that all Clan lasers are doing their full damage for a much longer time than IS lasers. Off the list, or change it to clan pro.

Eight, a number of things you listed simply do not count as pros or cons and/or apply equally to both sides. Hitboxes (humanoid or not, both sides have mechs with lousy and good hitboxes), skill tree item (dispensed with earlier in this thread, tyvm), Artemis is equal for both sides (unless you are trying to double dip because of the whole clan SRM spread starts larger? hey, party foul), all omnimech items (if clans had no b-mechs, I'd allow it, however...), IS 20 ton mech (?), etc. So a bunch of things, off the list.

Once the list is pared down, it becomes much more reasonable, number wise. There is still the major problem with not all things being of equal value. I also love that you are completely in denial about the reason many of these things were implemented, i.e. that there was/is an imbalance between the sides, and one needed a boost, but we'll roll past that.
Is it time for hearty Russian laughter?
So, nice smokescreen attempt, but no cigar. (ooh, lovely working mixed metaphor there)

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Gyrok, on 28 May 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

Yeonne and I are quite capable of having civil discourse without interruptions from peasants such as yourself. You can see your way out now. Kthxbai

You babbling nonsense in a "civil" manner makes it no more valid than a discussion about whether the sky is blue or green... it is demonstratively blue & the person talking about it being green is being disingenuous at best. So when the very best you can be is an outright liar, then it is only left to figure out if you are being intentionally malicious by deception or inexcusably unintelligent. Your constant line of Clam propaganda based on the most fringe examples possible (and still utter failures) means that the inevitable conclusion is that you lie on purpose.

[Tarogato]

Insanity09, on 28 May 2017 - 07:15 PM, said:

Fifth, IS has better agility. WRONG. Find an IS mech, now find and equal weight Clan mech with the same engine size, compare the numbers. Let's use IS BNC-LM and EXE-D, both 380XL engines, both 95 tons (I didn't cherry pick this, it was just the first direct comparison I ran across). Which has better agility numbers? The EXE-D. So, while it may be true in some cases, it is clearly not in others. Not an IS pro, off the list.

Actually, I'm pretty sure you're incorrect here. IS does generally have the better base agility.




You'll find the clan mechs to be toward the bottom of each weight class. Cases where the clan mechs are at the top of their weight class is when they are over-engined omnis, like the Iceferret, Linebacker, Gargoyle, and Executioner. That's because without quirks and agility, these low-podspace mechs don't have much going for them.

[Insanity09]

And I'll stand by my statement.
You cannot make a blanket statement to say that all IS mechs have better agility, some do not.
Even with the engine decoupling, if you find mechs of equal tonnage and equal engine, the numbers are not all in the IS favor. Those values are apples to apples comparisons, anything else is dubious at best.

That graph is purely on acceleration, and perhaps you just didn't bother to put in the graphs for the equally or more important turn rate and torso turn rate because they showed the same thing. <shrug>
However, it did show something interesting. Look at the 50 tonners. Yes, the HBKIIC loses out to most of the 50 tonners, but guess what? HMN and NVA are the same as most of them. Moreover, most of the 50 tonners use larger engines (250) vs the HBKIIC (200). It does legitimately perform less well than the IS HBK.

A better argument in favor of clans lacking agility is the COM (150) vs MLX (175). Same tonnage, yet the MLX performs far less well? Or the ACH (240) vs SDR (240). I have no explanation for the Urbies, the numbers listed in game do not come close to matching the other 30 tonners (because of the default 60? but, but, decoupled?).
How about the ADR (210), performing the same as the RVN (175, 210, 280, or 295) (not including the RVN-4X, at 175, because huh?). And the same as the PNT (140), what?
On the other end, CDA (320) vs VPR (320), the viper is ahead.

In short, the pattern is there, admittedly, that IS mechs tend to be more agile (for a given tonnage/engine rating), but that is NOT universally the case. Which means that specific decisions were made to give particular variants ON BOTH SIDES more mobility, and you cannot claim that an entire side has an advantage (or disadvantage) on that basis.
As for it being more common for IS to have the edge. Ahem, ask yourself why?

[Karl Streiger]

Gyrok, on 28 May 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

I think letting clans fire 3 large class lasers at once solves that problem to be honest. I could deal with the duration if I could fire as many lasers at once. Otherwise, there is no real solution I see that does not completely change multiple aspects of both weapons, and PGI is not going to do that.

And you also wish to get 15 PPFLD for Clan ERPPCs when the HPPC hit - and because the IS may fire 2 HPPCs without Ghost Heat - you wish to have 3 ERPPCs to be fired without Ghost Heat because those IS weapons weight 20tons and those ERPPCs only 18

You ignorance is disgusting... you now - (windows user - hit Win Key - type calc - hit Enter
type 11 / 1.5
type 9 / 1.25

The pulse discussion is well not so simple to solve however its not a 1:1 comparison.

---

give me some time

First we need to take a close look to IS ER Large vs IS Large vs IS Large Pulse
7.2 damage per beamsecond (dpbs) = ISERL
9 dpbs = ISL
16.47 dpbs = ISLP

For the cost of 1 heat and 25% less dpbs i get 50% more range - weight and size is the same - good trade off for the ISL - ISERL comparison
For the cost of 2tons (40%) I get 82% more dpbs and sacrifice 23% range - is this ok?

I admit I only choose the Large Laser when I have the mass available and I want to fire three with same convergence. (Heavy Metal)

So its more ISLP vs ISERL - > 2 tons (+40%); -84% range; -1 heat; + 120% dpbs - I think its pretty obviously that the ISLP is better for brawling.

However keep in mind that a longer burn duration does not translate into a pure disadvantage - it also increase the chance to hit something. A PPC is hit or miss - but usually 85% shots fired by a Clan ER Large Laser will deal some damage.

CERL - 7.3dpbs 740
CLP - 11.6 dpbs 600
CERM - 6 dpbs - 405

so we have ~60% more dpbs for 2tons but sacrifice 23% range in the large segment
but compare it with the CERM ~ half the dpbs -50% range but only 1 instead of 6tons

rolls are not that obvious but I would place the CLPL in the same bracket as the ISL a intermediate weapon.
Nice addition for the CERM when the CERM is your "main gun" and you have the spare weight

Edited by Karl Streiger, 28 May 2017 - 11:16 PM.