83 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

In general, Battlemaster-2C is the superior option to the Marauder IIC. Even with an XL engine you tank just fine because of huge structure quirks and shield arms, so with just a little spreading you have way higher potential armor. Also higher mounts so you can always shoot what you see, and 5 large pulse lasers are insanely powerful under the new skill tree. You likely won't get damage numbers in it as high as the Marauder IIC, but the damage you do is less spread so you will see higher kill counts and taking out light mechs will be at least twice as easy.

[Shifty McSwift]

Post skill tree? It was OP pre skill tree, but not for the reasons that seem obvious. Engine decoupling made it take a hit in twist/brawl capabilities, but the skill tree compensates for that with better dps and toughness.

Nothing about the recent patch changes the fact is has several potentially (near) perfectly optimised weapon loadouts for alpha striking, nor the fact it can travel 80kph.

Most importantly it still has those inherent benefits that make it that much better in general that come in its shape design providing very large potential in tanking through how damage transfer works.

MAD IIC is OP for a number of reasons, but not in the sense it is an autowin machine, just in the sense when you compare other mechs that should be rather similar to it, it outclasses them all.

[Lightfoot]

Interesting. It got better from the Skill Tree, but lost a lot of it's competitive edge because all mechs got the same new buffs. Plus it's engine rating is no longer a benefit to agility. So not as good vs other mechs now.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Shifty McSwift, on 05 June 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

Post skill tree? It was OP pre skill tree, but not for the reasons that seem obvious. Engine decoupling made it take a hit in twist/brawl capabilities, but the skill tree compensates for that with better dps and toughness.

Nothing about the recent patch changes the fact is has several potentially (near) perfectly optimised weapon loadouts for alpha striking, nor the fact it can travel 80kph.

Most importantly it still has those inherent benefits that make it that much better in general that come in its shape design providing very large potential in tanking through how damage transfer works.

MAD IIC is OP for a number of reasons, but not in the sense it is an autowin machine, just in the sense when you compare other mechs that should be rather similar to it, it outclasses them all.

All other mechs also got tankier and more DPS, but the MAD IIC took a huge hit in mobility and it takes a full mobility kit to go 80kph ontop of a 400XL, otherwise you'll be going 70, so the skill tree didn't do much compensating at all for it.

Comparing it to the other 85 tonners, Battlemaster, Warhawk, and Stalker only the Stalker really seems a bit underpowered. The Battlemaster is tankier, just as fast, and uses higher mounts but has somewhat lower alpha strikes. Warhawk is slightly tankier, a little slower, but accels at extreme range with quad ERPPCs. Stalker ends up being slow with good hitboxes but without any defensive quirks, leaving it as a rather bad option compared to the others, as it is slower, not as tanky, and only has the same levels of firepower.

I say we just buff the Stalker.

[ForceUser]

I managed over 2k damage with a single MAD IIC Laser Vomit in a CW skirmish match. It's a hard carry mech and currently the strongest assault in the game.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 June 2017 - 11:51 AM, said:

We will see, PGI seems to love the BLR-2C for some reason so you never know, it could come out stronger somehow, cuz PGI.

PGI is working constantly off of not only normally outdated information, but in some cases prehistoric levels of outdated information.

There was a time, very very long ago - where the Battlemaster was considered a joke next to the STK.

The Stalkers mounts were superior, dead-siding was extremely common, the Misery was a top tier mech and the Battlemaster's only claim to fame (over the stalker) was the ability to take giant XL engines that no one ever wanted to take.

It couldn't twist to save it's life and it was enormously bulky with a barndoor front profile as bad as the Awesome's.


Pre-February 2015 you could only fire 2 LLAS/ERLLAS/LPLs (so taking 5 or 6 of them wasn't part of any builds except for ancient days before that when Morgoth still walked Middle Earth) at a time without incurring ghost heat - and we had quaint builds like "4 ERLLAS Stalkers" - the kind of firepower we expect from a Quick Draw at this point.

Edited by Ultimax, 05 June 2017 - 08:33 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Dakota1000, on 05 June 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

All other mechs also got tankier and more DPS, but the MAD IIC took a huge hit in mobility and it takes a full mobility kit to go 80kph ontop of a 400XL, otherwise you'll be going 70, so the skill tree didn't do much compensating at all for it.

Comparing it to the other 85 tonners, Battlemaster, Warhawk, and Stalker only the Stalker really seems a bit underpowered. The Battlemaster is tankier, just as fast, and uses higher mounts but has somewhat lower alpha strikes. Warhawk is slightly tankier, a little slower, but accels at extreme range with quad ERPPCs. Stalker ends up being slow with good hitboxes but without any defensive quirks, leaving it as a rather bad option compared to the others, as it is slower, not as tanky, and only has the same levels of firepower.

I say we just buff the Stalker.

Those are all fair points, but MAD IIC still has those internal advantages in design that make it amazing in brawls when properly utilised, mobility is a big thing for brawling though, and it did take a hit there in general. The top speed though really can't be ignored, it is one of the best aspects of it, as an assault that can easily keep up with nascars involving heavies and mediums, and brawling at those top speeds is a huge advantage over the slower big assaults, it can tactically do a lot more in how it can function.

[Y E O N N E]

Ultimax, on 05 June 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

It couldn't twist to save it's life and it was enormously bulky with a barndoor front profile as bad as the Awesome's.

Still can't, if we're being honest. Until the 2C, that was one of the reasons nobody ever wanted to take a Battlemaster: PGI gimped the two potentially good ones in exactly the way they ought not to have been gimped to be useful with that barn-door profile.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Shifty McSwift, on 05 June 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

Those are all fair points, but MAD IIC still has those internal advantages in design that make it amazing in brawls when properly utilised, mobility is a big thing for brawling though, and it did take a hit there in general. The top speed though really can't be ignored, it is one of the best aspects of it, as an assault that can easily keep up with nascars involving heavies and mediums, and brawling at those top speeds is a huge advantage over the slower big assaults, it can tactically do a lot more in how it can function.

Not really ignoring the top speed at all, infact, topspeed is why I say the stalker is so bad. Battlemaster moves the exact same speeds as a Marauder but has better mobility, and the Warhawk moves 6kph slower (most people run XL375 on Marauder IICs if they aren't just going with the variants capped at 340 or running a 350) but also has better mobility.

In general there's not much of a reason to use a mech that can't go over 64kph now, its just asking to be outrun.

[Shifty McSwift]

Dakota1000, on 05 June 2017 - 09:07 PM, said:

Not really ignoring the top speed at all, infact, topspeed is why I say the stalker is so bad. Battlemaster moves the exact same speeds as a Marauder but has better mobility, and the Warhawk moves 6kph slower (most people run XL375 on Marauder IICs if they aren't just going with the variants capped at 340 or running a 350) but also has better mobility.

In general there's not much of a reason to use a mech that can't go over 64kph now, its just asking to be outrun.

It has been like this for a while, from what I have seen, much more so before the tree. I actually see occasional direwolfs now, even if people are just testing them, there was definitely none of that pre skill tree. In comp play I would guess you are spot on there, but again, speeds lower than 60 kph have always been a sort of death sentence in certain situations.

I think many would put that min speed higher too, I run my kdk at 65kph, which is part of the draw to it, and is fast enough to feel like I am not holding the group up at all, but some groups I have seen have a general min speed of 80-90kph, and considering the kinds of heavy and assault builds you can run at those speeds, these fast moving death balls are extremely effective for lots of obvious reasons. Mad IIC is definitely perfect for those groups, the battlemaster sounds like it is too.

[Mcgral18]

Viktor Drake, on 05 June 2017 - 07:56 PM, said:

BECAUSE THINGS AREN'T OP ON THE CLANS SIDE. I play both Clans and IS equally and the Clans aren't OP. I am so fricken tried of hearing it too. Even PGI said 6% difference in their numbers and we already know the higher skilled players typically play Clan side because PGI released that info as well so that accounts for that 6% difference if not more.

I am so tired of IS purist always claiming Clans are OP. They were once, but not any more and haven't been for a long time so quit using the past as justification for the here and now.

I mean maybe I am just so much more skilled with my IS mechs than I am with my Clan mechs right? Is that the reason, I don't feel dominated by Clan mechs when I am playing my 54 fricken IS mechs against them? Maybe I just suck so badly at play Clan mechs that my poor skills bring their Omnipotent presence down to mear moral levels of performance. Seriously enough with the OP Clans BS.

As far as the future tech, we are talking a very short window between now and it being launched and there are other balance changes like the Energy Re-balance going into the game even sooner. It is just plain stupid to be making additional balance changes now with all that going on. We aren't talking 6 months we are talking 6 weeks and PGI is balancing around a meta that won't even exist after those 6 weeks. Once everything is in, then balance.

Finally and frankly, I am just tired of all the nerfing. PGI so ever rarely buffs anything but nerfing, well that is second nature to them and when they nerf something, they leave it nerfed even if nerfing it actually broke it. So instead of crying "Nerf" why don't you post "BUFF the IS" if you really think there is a problem, at least then maybe we can have a few more good things in the game rather than a bunch of garbage.

I notice you never respond to anyone calling you out on your bias

Without quirks, Clam are superior
Full stop
That's the truth

Their weapons and equipment are superior, and many have superior weapon mounts on top of that.


Very few Spheroid weapons even come to compare (isLPL being perhaps the only one) for the Opportunity Cost (IE, half weight SRMs, no downside XL, half size weight saving upgrades)

FutureTech™ isn't addressing any of that, unless PGI will do some heavy fudging.
Maybe the June patch will fix some of that, but seeing as that's focused on only weapons, and not the much larger equipment differential, not likely.
cSPL nerf (or isSmall buff) would help bridge brawlers, however.



The reason for nerfs is the HUMONGOUS POWER CREEP which the Clams brought.
If PGI wants the baseline to be pre-Clam, a whole lot of nerfs are incoming


More than likely, somewhere inbetween. You know, without doubled damage lasers, because lulwhynot?

[Ade the Rare]

Mcgral18, on 05 June 2017 - 09:48 PM, said:

cSPL nerf (or isSmall buff) would help bridge brawlers, however.

I find the IS MPL to be pretty much useless. Why take it over a ML, at double the tonnage, reduced range, longer burn time, and only 1 extra dmg?

Dakota1000, on 05 June 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

I say we just buff the Stalker.

I think, personally, the MAD-IIC is a competent assault mech, which sets it apart because so many other assault mechs are severely underpowered.

The KDK-3 was OP, which was obvious to many for a long time, and became something PGI couldn't ignore any longer when the 2016 championship teams were only rolling KDK-3's in their assault roles. However, in this situation, I think wielding the nerf hammer against it isn't justified; simply put, other assaults are in dire need of buffing.

I have absolutely no desire to aquire a Stalker of any kind; it seems completely obsolete, unless I want to roll a big LRM boat, but I don't because I have a soul. I can't quite justify an Atlas either due to it's huge, shoot-me profile and the many LRM-friendly maps with inadequate cover for something that big. King Crab feels poor now. Victor is *ok*, but there are many outright better heavies, so why pick it as an assault?

<EDIT> Spelling

Edited by Ade the Rare, 05 June 2017 - 10:58 PM.

[Vellron2005]

Ade the Rare, on 05 June 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

I remember before the ST there was a lot said about how the MAD-IIC was going to be buffed beyond belief with the addition of the ST giving it buffs it never had before; this was both from Clan and IS players, in several threads, and to be honest it did make sense.

However, and please bear in mind I don't play Clan mechs at all, I've not noticed anything particularly OP about it. Seems like a competent assault mech, sure, but nothing overly amazing (or indeed game-breaking) about it post-ST.

Am I alone in thinking the fuss about the ST buffing this mech turned out to be nothing?

The MAD IIC is not OP.. other clan assaults, except the Executioner and Gargoyle have been nerfed severely, so it just seems that way..

It's just the un-nerfed..

[InvictusLee]

Snazzy Dragon, on 05 June 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

It's tough, got good hitboxes, neutral mounts, mobility to get away with peeking, it's a clan battlemech, it's got a high engine cap, you can cram 19+ DHS with no issues, great hardpoint mixes, and it's just agile enough to get great benefits from the mobility tree. Now throw in all the inherent benefits of being a clan mech and there you go, a mech that is undoubtedly a powerhouse.

can i steal ur sig plz?

[Prof RJ Gumby]

It's overperforming. I'm not afraid of it being overnerfed, because it's actually quite hard to do so on a clan mech with good hitboxes, decent to good mounts and good "boatability".

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 05 June 2017 - 09:48 PM, said:

I notice you never respond to anyone calling you out on your bias

Without quirks, Clam are superior
Full stop
That's the truth

Their weapons and equipment are superior, and many have superior weapon mounts on top of that.


Very few Spheroid weapons even come to compare (isLPL being perhaps the only one) for the Opportunity Cost (IE, half weight SRMs, no downside XL, half size weight saving upgrades)

FutureTech™ isn't addressing any of that, unless PGI will do some heavy fudging.
Maybe the June patch will fix some of that, but seeing as that's focused on only weapons, and not the much larger equipment differential, not likely.
cSPL nerf (or isSmall buff) would help bridge brawlers, however.



The reason for nerfs is the HUMONGOUS POWER CREEP which the Clams brought.
If PGI wants the baseline to be pre-Clam, a whole lot of nerfs are incoming


More than likely, somewhere inbetween. You know, without doubled damage lasers, because lulwhynot?

Well said.

[DGTLDaemon]

I think MAD-IIC is perceived as "OP" because it's the only semi-decent Clan assault remaining. Kodiaks and Dire Wolves have been nerfed into the ground via engine desync. The Executioner and the Gargoyle have received mobility buffs, but they are so limited on pod space that I'm afraid nothing can save those chassis. They just can't carry a loadout worthy of an assault mech. The Warhawk has always suffered from a bad case of knuckle dragging, and its hitboxes aren't too good, either. I know there are people who can work wonders with it, but it's definitely not an easy mech to pilot. The Highlander IIC has also received a mobility buff, and I actually kinda like it now, but it's low engine cap results in low top speed which is a liability in pug matches where people tend to leave their assaults behind. And besides, HGN-IIC-C is the only variant capable of carrying a decent meta loadout.

How, Marauder IIC has also been hit hard by the mobility nerf bat, but unlike the Kodiak, it's still more or less driveable, and it can still carry a sh*tload of guns. So I guess it makes it the go-to choice for those who want to have good firepower while retaining some semblance of mobility. That is, until the next patch when it's probably going to get nerfed as hard as the Kodiak was. And then we'll be left with no decent Clan assaults. And the community will rejoice because everyone hates the Clans...

[El Bandito]

DGTLDaemon, on 06 June 2017 - 12:47 AM, said:

How, Marauder IIC has also been hit hard by the mobility nerf bat, but unlike the Kodiak, it's still more or less driveable, and it can still carry a sh*tload of guns. So I guess it makes it the go-to choice for those who want to have good firepower while retaining some semblance of mobility. That is, until the next patch when it's probably going to get nerfed as hard as the Kodiak was. And then we'll be left with no decent Clan assaults. And the community will rejoice because everyone hates the Clans...

I'll bet you a mech pack that MAD-IIC will still do good post next patch. Cause a Clan battlemech with such friendly hitboxes, and such high engine cap cannot be so easily moved down to irrelevance.

[DGTLDaemon]

El Bandito, on 06 June 2017 - 12:55 AM, said:

I'll bet you a mech pack that MAD-IIC will still do good post next patch. Cause a Clan battlemech with such friendly hitboxes, and such high engine cap cannot be so easily moved down to irrelevance.

Easy. Look at what they did to the Kodiaks. Give it a torso twist angle of 60 degrees and cut its mobility values even further, and it will become a useless pile of junk no matter how many guns it can carry. And the high engine cap doesn't matter anymore. I've dropped down from XL375-380 to XL350 on all my Marauder IICs, because a large engine only gives you top speed now, and the top speed of about 70 kph is generally sufficient to keep up with the team and avoid the Dire Wolf syndrome.

[El Bandito]

DGTLDaemon, on 06 June 2017 - 12:59 AM, said:

Easy. Look at what they did to the Kodiaks. Give it a torso twist angle of 60 degrees and cut its mobility values even further, and it will become a useless pile of junk no matter how many guns it can carry. And the high engine cap doesn't matter anymore. I've dropped down from XL375-380 to XL350 on all my Marauder IICs, because a large engine only gives you top speed now, and the top speed of about 70 kph is generally sufficient to keep up with the team and avoid the Dire Wolf syndrome.

What happened to Kodiaks happened to 100 tonners in general.