184 replies to this topic

[FireStoat]

Thank you PGI for putting these items up on the Test server for us to try out. It is greatly appreciated. Also, thank you for giving us a good time to test them during the small 'dead time' between events. That's appreciated as well.

[Kaptain]

Nimnul, on 05 July 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

LBX20 must 10 slots !

+1

[Kaptain]

Hopefully the "False empty" UI mech lab bug is fixed as well as the Stealth armor turns Endo Steel Structure non dynamic/fixed in place bug as well. Those are pretty glaring and annoying UI bugs.

No mention of LGR and other new weapons not benefiting from skill tree ammo nodes.

Happy to hear racs are getting ghost heat fixed.

I would suggest:
HPPC 15@15
LBX20 and HGR slot reduction (or crit split and ammo changing mechanics)
Rocket Launchers need serious work to fill their intended role.
UAC20s probably need ghost heat.

Overall pretty happy PGI. I would have liked to seen a round 3 for sure and taking the servers down feels a bit premature.

Edited by Kaptain, 05 July 2017 - 05:26 PM.

[WhyHelloDer]

I agree that the LBX/20 should be bumped down to 10 slots instead of 11. It's a weapon that needs some loving let's all be honest here. However, bumping th HGR down to 10 I would be a bit skeptical at. However, to everyone against it purely for the reasoning that it could then be arm mounted, PGI can just code it to not be allowed to be mounted there. They already have code for that, for example Jump Jets can not be mounted in arm locations, so it would be pretty easy to prevent I think if they were to downsize the HGR to 10 slots.

[Twilight Fenrir]

I feel like, with the IS having a UAC20 now, and one that has 3 pellets instead of 4 like the Clan version, that the Clan regular Autocannon should get a buff to, if not one pellet like the IS one, at least bump it down to two pellets per salvo to give it half a reason to exist.

The HGR is an 11 crit weapon on Sarna, and lore is that it could only be mounted on the torso, if only because the staggering amount of recoil would tear the arm off the mech that fired it So, I'm against dropping it to 10 crits, even though I effing love the weapon, and am gonna put it on damn near everything I can XD Stilll Yen Lo Wang with an HGauss... *drools*

LB20X should probably be a 10crit weapon, even though Sarna says it's an 11 crit... And as someone above stated... the Bushwacker L1 somehow has a LFE, and a LB20x... despite Sarna saying it's an 11 crit weapon.... I'm really curious how that one is supposed to work in the TROs o.o

Quote

• BSW-L1 The L1 variant of the Bushwacker is a configuration that changes the 'Mech to a close combat unit. The only long range weapon on the L1 variant is an ER Large Laser. For close combat, the L1 carries an LB-X Autocannon/20 that can fire either standard or cluster ammunition, adding versatility to the crippling firepower of this extremely deadly close combat weapon. Two and a half tons of additional armor was added to the BSW-L1, giving excellent armor protection. The L1 saw its engine upgraded to a Light Fusion Engine for increased survivability. BV (1.0) = 1,342^[6][7] (1,264)^[8], BV (2.0) = 1,513^[9]

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 05 July 2017 - 06:11 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 05 July 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

omg... MRMs are going to be so so useless.

Have fun face tanking for the whole duration of the missile stream.
A torso twist now will potentially cause much unintentional friendly fire.

At least with all missiles going to the same spot, you could fire and twist with no problem... to hell with missiles coming out sideways from your mech... we're talking about the viability of an entire weapon system

You wouldn't be using MRMs for tracking fast movers with that wide spread missile cloud. Then why you nerfed its only advantage in brawls?... Because it looks cooler now?... WHY?
Where they THAT much OP in brawls?

Wait, so you're saying that MRM's won't be as effective in a brawl, and instead will serve only as... medium range missiles? And that... wait, short range missiles may be a superior choice for a pure brawling build?
Madness!

Hell, if you get MRM's that stream fire in a static direction like they do currently (which is, incidentally, obviously a bug), then I want my cUAC20 to do it too. Start firing, then twist away instantly, full damage done.

If MRM's where supposed to function this way, they wouldn't stream fire. Missiles launching sideways is ridiculous; no other weapon in the game works that way.


And unintentional friendly fire? Don't go there; that's beneath you. Burst/beam weapons firing where they are pointed is how *everything* not front loaded works. That's a total non-argument.

Edited by Wintersdark, 05 July 2017 - 06:05 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Twilight Fenrir, on 05 July 2017 - 06:00 PM, said:

I feel like, with the IS having a UAC20 now, and one that has 3 pellets instead of 4 like the Clan version, that the Clan regular Autocannon should get a buff to, if not one pellet like the IS one, at least bump it down to two pellets per salvo to give it half a reason to exist.

I could get on board with that.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 05 July 2017 - 06:06 PM.

[CK16]

Heavy Gauss could not be mounted EVER in an arm though....OK fine let them mount it but your arm is ripped off after one shot >.>

[The6thMessenger]

RACs better not be **** like they are now.

They need to be a lot less random, and their good damage output doesn't rely on luck of the draw. Make them work like the archetypal overheating MG, cause sure as hell they don't need that extra risk since we're already taking a huge gamble staring enemies down for an idiotic amount of time. Jesus 1.5s of the C-ERLL is bad already.

Ney Pryde, on 05 July 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

You didn't play the same table top the rest of us did, or else you'd remember HE had no minimums at all.

Or could read sarna properly.

I didn't played TT, but i knew about HE.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 July 2017 - 06:13 PM.

[Twilight Fenrir]

CK16, on 05 July 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

Heavy Gauss could not be mounted EVER in an arm though....OK fine let them mount it but your arm is ripped off after one shot >.>

Like a giant Rocket Launcher, fire and forget! And, let your pinwheeling arm explode upon impact, causing critical damage to anyone it hits behind you!

[Commander A9]

How badly are Clans getting screwed now?

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 05 July 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

Wait, so you're saying that MRM's won't be as effective in a brawl, and instead will serve only as... medium range missiles? And that... wait, short range missiles may be a superior choice for a pure brawling build?
Madness!

You are telling me that an unguided stream fire weapon with a spread the size of a planet and projectile speed of 400 m/s is a medium range weapon?

please... stop.
don't continue.
I'd rather have a good missile brawl option on mechs with just one missile hardpoint, with long reach for that occasional mid-range stationary target.
Also, SRMs will always be a superior brawl weapon because of small spread and no-stream fire.

Wintersdark, on 05 July 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

If MRM's where supposed to function this way, they wouldn't stream fire. Missiles launching sideways is ridiculous; no other weapon in the game works that way.

MRMs stream fire, because some special dude on these forums thought they will be OP 3 months before any details are revealed.

Also, try SRMs on bushwhacker, archer and arctic cheetah arms. they come out side ways and no one gives a damn.

Wintersdark, on 05 July 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

And unintentional friendly fire? Don't go there; that's beneath you. Burst/beam weapons firing where they are pointed is how *everything* not front loaded works. That's a total non-argument.

Burst / beam weapons at least hit the exact location i'm pointing at speeds starting from 600m/s to speed of light.


Fine... if you like having a useless piece of garbage that "looks cool"... then congrats. You're getting 4 of those!


One of the first things I tried with MRMs was to see if they all go the same point or they follow the crosshair.
PGI was getting at least one thing right by accident, but, nope!. They just HAD to go back and ruin it.
They knew MRMs were useless anyway, and they ignored everyone who told them to make them fire in a blob but went with the worst piece of feedback that was there.


.

Edited by Navid A1, 05 July 2017 - 06:38 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 05 July 2017 - 06:21 PM, said:

You are telling me that an unguided stream fire weapon with a spread the size of a planet and projectile speed of 400 m/s is a medium range weapon?

please... stop.
don't continue.
I'd rather have a good missile brawl option on mechs with just one missile hardpoint, with long reach for that occasional mid-range stationary target.
Also, SRMs will always be a superior brawl weapon because of small spread and no-stream fire.

MRMs stream fire, because some special dude on these forums thought they will be OP 3 months before any details are revealed.


Fine... if you like having a useless piece of garbage that "looks cool"... then congrats. You're getting 4 of those!


One of the first things I tried with MRMs was to see if they all go the same point or they follow the crosshair.
PGI was getting at least one thing right by accident, but, nope!. They just HAD to go back and ruin it.
They knew MRMs were useless anyway, and they ignored everyone who told them to make them fire in a blob but went with the worst piece of feedback that was there.

Oh, come on.

If MRM's are actually so terrible at medium range, then they need other buffs. But weird magic firing? No.

If I'm twisting my torso/arms, firing a UAC, I get shells all over the place. Same with EVERY OTHER NON-FLD WEAPON IN THE GAME. Firing a stream of unguided missiles in a fixed line while the launcher twists is just dumb.

It's stupid. Pants on head stupid. It's physically impossible, it looks stupid, it's totally unintuitive (WHY would that even happen? The launchers don't turn!)


MRM's SHOULD NOT be ideal brawling weapons. That's SRM's. They SHOULD be medium range missiles that can also be used at close range, but they should be inferior to the dedicated brawling weapons.


So, the solution if they are too weak at medium range is to buff them, but not give them ridiculously broken mechanics. Maybe more velocity, or a tighter spread; I'm not going to claim to have a strong grasp of exactly where they are in the balance scheme at the moment because they weren't a major point of investigation for me during the PTS.

Quote

Also, try SRMs on bushwhacker, archer and arctic cheetah arms. they come out side ways and no one gives a damn.

They come out in the direction the launchers are pointed in, which is the direction they should come out from.

Quote

Burst / beam weapons at least hit the exact location i'm pointing at speeds starting from 600m/s to speed of light.

MRM's, so long as they are UNGUIDED, STREAM weapons, should fire exactly like all other stream weapons. And they will.

Again, if they end up being poor weapons, then the values should be tweaked. Buff velocity, cycle time, ammo/ton, heat, damage, missile health, whatever.

Or, argue against their being stream weapons. *shrugs* I don't object to that in the slightest - it's not like I want MRM's to be bad.

But if they ARE going to be stream weapons, then they are stream weapons.

Edited by Wintersdark, 05 July 2017 - 06:54 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Ney Pryde, on 05 July 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

You didn't play the same table top the rest of us did, or else you'd remember HE had no minimums at all.

HE ammo also only had a range on 270m, and this stuff goes out to 1100.

It's a hybrid of all three types. I expected we'd see a min range of some kind, given 2/3 of ATM ammo carries it.

The biggest ATM fails right now are it's ridiculously low velocity and too-high firing arc making them accidentally indirect-fire weapons. It's like they took the worst parts of LRMs and wedded them to another missile system, then expected the damage increase closer in to be compensation for all that.

[Brain Cancer]

Jep Jorgensson, on 05 July 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

"Artemis upgrade no longer improperly applies a bonus to MRM's, ATM's, and Rocket Launchers." -PGI

While I am pretty sure putting that on MRM's and RL's is supposed to be impossible, ATM's are supposed to have Artemis built into them which is why they can only lock-on and fire if they have LOS on their target. So does this mean that PGI is ripping it out of them and Lore be damned? While it would still be par for the course for PGI, it would also still be a d!ck move on their part on top of everything else.

The "improper" would probably be Artemis upgrades applying a bonus on top of what the already statted ATM gets.

And yes, MRMs can only use Apollo (which isn't around yet), while RL's can't use anything.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 05 July 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

Oh, come on.

If MRM's are actually so terrible at medium range, then they need other buffs. But weird magic firing? No.

If I'm twisting my torso/arms, firing a UAC, I get shells all over the place. Same with EVERY OTHER NON-FLD WEAPON IN THE GAME. Firing a stream of unguided missiles in a fixed line while the launcher twists is just dumb.

It's stupid. Pants on head stupid. It's physically impossible, it looks stupid, it's totally unintuitive (WHY would that even happen? The launchers don't turn!)


MRM's SHOULD NOT be ideal brawling weapons. That's SRM's. They SHOULD be medium range missiles that can also be used at close range, but they should be inferior to the dedicated brawling weapons.


So, the solution if they are too weak at medium range is to buff them, but not give them ridiculously broken mechanics. Maybe more velocity, or a tighter spread; I'm not going to claim to have a strong grasp of exactly where they are in the balance scheme at the moment because they weren't a major point of investigation for me during the PTS.

They come out in the direction the launchers are pointed in, which is the direction they should come out from.


MRM's, so long as they are UNGUIDED, STREAM weapons, should fire exactly like all other stream weapons. And they will.

Again, if they end up being poor weapons, then the values should be tweaked. Buff velocity, cycle time, ammo/ton, heat, damage, missile health, whatever.

Or, argue against their being stream weapons. *shrugs* I don't object to that in the slightest - it's not like I want MRM's to be bad.

But if they ARE going to be stream weapons, then they are stream weapons.

First off, no hyper-buff can fix the stupid stream fire mechanics... NOTHING. Its just useless!

When MRMs get their 0.0 spread, then I'll accept your UAC comparison

They look stupid if they come out side ways?... Magic fire?... The whole MWO mechanics are based off space magic.
If it looks cool but is garbage then there is a problem. Hell, i'm not even able to SEE my mech ingame in ANYWAY other than the academy in a powered down state.

To me, sacrificing weapon usability for looking cool is very stupid, since you wouldn't be able to see them anymore because no one would use them.... yeah, you can go to testing grounds and fire from 3PV for that looks cool fix!

The only true way to fix MRMs was to remove stream fire... but you know PGI, they go with the worst piece of feedback... always... then they rub it in your face like "you asked for it".
Funny thing is that they know its gonna make them worse, but they just so desperate to rub a big fail in community's face.


Also, go and double check arm missile hardpoints on the cheetah, archer and bushwacker. They do not turn to the direction your arms are pointing (they point like they are a torso weapon), yet they fire to the same place your arms are pointing, coming out side ways from their mounts...
Blasphemy,... right?

[Gas Guzzler]

Commander A9, on 05 July 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

How badly are Clans getting screwed now?

Compare Clan Gauss to Light Gauss to see how badly Clans are getting "screwed".

[Sereglach]

I'd like to see Flamers properly addressed before you add weapon tree nodes to them, but I'm not going to get my hopes up that that's happening. Let alone the fact that these nodes are doing things we were told absolutely couldn't be done to flamers without re-breaking the game . . . so they're just useless values to keep that from happening again. It's seriously the one big issue keeping my wallet shut and keeping me from looking forward to MWO's future.

It's been a bit over 5 years now advocating for Flamers to be properly reengineered (no exponential scaling, just fixed flat numbers) and be brought into better balance with the other weapons in the game. It still hasn't happened. Just this one thing, please? You can read my threads in the PTS forums and the various threads I've made in the past. It's not hard; and I know it's not, it's already been proven to mostly (almost exclusively, really) just be XML tuning.

Russ said the conversation was for another time, yet it keeps getting punted off. I'm supposed to have faith why?

Edited by Sereglach, 05 July 2017 - 08:18 PM.

[Jep Jorgensson]

cougurt, on 05 July 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

it means nothing for ATMs as their built-in artemis is meaningless in MWO terms. their functionality will remain the same.

That would still be a d!ck move.

Wintersdark, on 05 July 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

Errr, irrelevant. All that matters is the final stats. ATM's have artemis built in, but they're not affected by your mech's artemis upgrade. Get the difference? ATM's fire using their listed stats, and those stats include the "built in" artemis.

The problem right now is adding Artemis to your mech (or not) changes the ATM's stats, and that SHOULDN'T happen because... *drum roll* Artemis is built in.

In other words, ATM's having Artemis built in is purely fluff, it doesn't DO anything. The ATM's just have the stats they should have, and those shouldn't change whether your other missile systems have artemis or not.

My concern was them taking the Artemus effects away from ATM's stats to begin with. Simple as that.

blackcatf, on 05 July 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

Pretty sure that you can dumb fire ATMs just like LRMs (i.e. I may have accidentally pulled the trigger on some ATMs without a lock a couple of times and seen 3-12 expensive missiles smash hard into the dirt in front of me). When I read "lock-on and fire" it sounds to me like you're talking about how Streak SRMs work. Maybe I just misread what you were saying.

I meant in the Lore and the lock-ons. You can still dumb fire them in the Lore.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 05 July 2017 - 09:44 PM.

[Reno Blade]

Good to see these items get fixed.

Some expectations I have for the go-live weapon values to make the new weapons useful without making them stronger than current weapons:

Energy
- Heavy Lasers recieve some reduction in cooldown and heat while keeping long burn.
- CER Lasers might need a slight dmg nerf (to make them "middle ground" between Pulse and Heavy lasers)
- Pulse lasers might need a slight dmg nerf, if you are not going with very short burst cooldown/dmg/heat style, as was suggested already for the energy rebalancing (1/4 cd/dmg/heat values).
- isHPPCs increase overal dmg/heat without splash calculated in (e.g. 13dmg/12.5heat +2 splash)
- isERPPCs reduce heat, but increase cooldown and velocity (e.g. 12 heat, 6s cooldown and 1400m/s)
- isSNPPCs reduce heat (e.g. 10dmg, 9heat)

Ballistics
- Light Gauss is nearly there, might need dmg buff to 10dmg
- all Gauss Rifles might need 1 or 2 more base heat, but also more health and less chance to explode again
- Heavy Gauss might need bit more ammo / ton (6 or 7 shots) and a slight buff to cd
- isUAC20 needs Ghost Heat together with AC20s

Missiles
- MRMs might need but more velocity, but overall the fix for aiming the stream should make them much better
- ATMs might need a ramp-up minimum range and increase in missile health (to slow down AMS kills)
- LRMs might need some higher velocity and longer cooldown

Skill Tree
- having beam duration nodes reduce UAC and Missile stream duration (or add them separately)
- having cooldown nodes affect RAC rate of fire
- having Gauss Charge Hold nodes

Ghost Heat
- Limits set to 2 for LL/ERLL, LP, HLL
- Limits set to 4 for ML/ERML, MP, HML
- Limits set to 6 for SL/ERSL, SP, HSL
- Limits set to 2 for PPC/SNPPC/HPPC/ERPPC/cERPPC
- Limits set to 4 for LPPC
- Limits set to 2 for ATM9/12, MRM20/30/40, LRM15/20
- Limits set to 4 for ATM6, MRM10, LRM10
- Limits set to 1 for AC20, UAC20, Gauss, HGauss

- Link groups for all Lasers (or at least large+medium together)
- Link groups for PPC + Gauss
- Link groups of AC20/10 + PPC