675 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 July 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

I love all of these notes, except for one thing.

You all already have a great Clan Nova Cat logo in the decal. So... what's with the bat?

This is not a Nova Cat....




This, however, is, and you already have the graphic in the decals. o_0



Like... the new logo looks more like a bat than a cat. Why would you all deviate from the art you already have in game, so badly? Like, what is even going on with its eyes?!

Edit:

I am not even joking when I say it disturbs me to look at that new logo.

It definitely does look like a bat. Don't understand why they wouldn't use the image they already have for the decal?

[ThiefofAlways]

If you want balance then everyone play one side or the other.

[Grus]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

No. The design goal is that in MWO, Clan vs. IS has to be 1:1 balanced.

This doesn't mean a Clan ERPPC has to equal an IS ERPPC, but that Clans and IS have to be equal overall (when considering the whole package).

If all clan weapons are better, and clan engines are better, while mech chassis are varied and essentially a wash, then Clans are stronger than IS 1:1. Assymetric numbers balance will never work in MWO, so this is not sustainable.

Arguing "My stuff should just be better because it was in tabletop" is childish and stupid. This is a PvP game, and balance is important.

So, then, if you want your cERPPC to be flatly superior to the IS ERPPC, what do you want to be much worse in order to provide overall balance?

As it stands in these patch notes, I wouldn't say the IS ERPPC is a superior weapon. It's just different. It's more accurate at long range, but it does less total damage (recognizing that the cERPPC splash is of little real value) and (way more important) it's physically larger and heavier.

well we already have worse lasers than IS for the brawl (high heat/duration/cooldown) and our ghost heat just makes that worse. Add to that our ac's are a stream of damage instead of pinpoint 1 shot for X damage. So we already have plenty of drawbacks.

[Wintersdark]

ThiefofAlways, on 15 July 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

If you want balance then everyone play one side or the other.

That's just dumb.

What part of this don't you understand? This is a faction based PvP game. You need faction vs. faction balance in a faction vs. faction PvP game. There's no workable alternative. Telling everyone to play the same faction is totally absurd.

If you just go mixtech, then there's literally no factions left and it's purely cosmetic. If you go Mixtech except for engines, then Clan is simply better (as Clan engines are dramatically better than IS engines).

[Cy Mitchell]

Jman5, on 15 July 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

You know it's not like I'm saying all this because my builds are getting buffed. In the last patch my prefered build got nerfed. And in this patch my new preferred build is getting nerfed.

LOL. Same for me. My favorite build, a 2 UAC5/ 4erML got clobbered last winter when the UACs got the jam and jam duration increases. All thanks to the Kodiak and Night Gyr dakka boats. Then the June patch nerfed my next favorite build and it gets hit again with this patch. Even my PTS build that I liked got hit this patch because the weapons are not coming into the Live game with the PTS values.

It does not even bother me. Everyone else has to deal with the same changes. My Skill Tree set-ups are generic enough that I will have to make very little or no changes at all to adapt my builds.

Ironically, the GH pairing of the Gauss/PPCs will benefit a couple builds that I sort of like because the erPPCs will get a velocity buff.

One thing that I do sort of look forward to is that maybe now every new Mech that is introduced will not be immediately declared as DOA if it does not have cockpit level hardpoints that can mount multiple Gauss and PPCs.

[Alienized]

people that buy new mechs purely to play a single playstyle...
i dont know if you ever should be considered to get a refund.
like, damn, you are doing everything wrong in this game.

*oh u nerfed muh goose peps, i cant play anything else so this 15$mech is nao uselezz.*

.......... l2p. like. seriously.

[Grus]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

That's just dumb.

What part of this don't you understand? This is a faction based PvP game. You need faction vs. faction balance in a faction vs. faction PvP game. There's no workable alternative. Telling everyone to play the same faction is totally absurd.

If you just go mixtech, then there's literally no factions left and it's purely cosmetic. If you go Mixtech except for engines, then Clan is simply better (as Clan engines are dramatically better than IS engines).

but why would a IS player want a clan laser? They try to do their black knight/warhammer/battlemaster/banchee build with clan tech they will kill themselves after the 2nd or 3rd alpha. They don't need the range because their 'LL can still do damn good damage out to 1200m... Add to that the speed they can move to get in range to use the superior mid range brawl Now that we don't have the ppcgauss combo any more.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Alienized, on 15 July 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

people that buy new mechs purely to play a single playstyle...
i dont know if you ever should be considered to get a refund.
like, damn, you are doing everything wrong in this game.

*oh u nerfed muh goose peps, i cant play anything else so this 15$mech is nao uselezz.*

.......... l2p. like. seriously.

You can still play Gauss PPC. You fire your PPCs then fire the Gauss. Or fire the Gauss then fire the PPCs.

L2Keep your Aim.

[Cy Mitchell]

LastKhan, on 15 July 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

I have returned from slumber and wow that new CnC logo is terrible. Not to worry ive already taken the liberty and for free modify the thing to make it more "cat like"


old:



More updated:

The thing is, when cats are angry or ready to fight, they always lay their ears back. Therefore, your original concept art is much better and looks more like a really pi$$ed off kitty.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Grus, on 15 July 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

but why would a IS player want a clan laser? They try to do their black knight/warhammer/battlemaster/banchee build with clan tech they will kill themselves after the 2nd or 3rd alpha. They don't need the range because their 'LL can still do damn good damage out to 1200m... Add to that the speed they can move to get in range to use the superior mid range brawl Now that we don't have the ppcgauss combo any more.

Wait, my laser that maxes at 675m does just fine at 1200m?

*Eyebrows cocked*

[Grus]

Alienized, on 15 July 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

people that buy new mechs purely to play a single playstyle...
i dont know if you ever should be considered to get a refund.
like, damn, you are doing everything wrong in this game.

*oh u nerfed muh goose peps, i cant play anything else so this 15$mech is nao uselezz.*

.......... l2p. like. seriously.

agreed I was loving the madcat2 for its layout and many different combos it can field on 1 chassis. My main build was going to be 4ermeds 2uac10 and 2 atm12. But if I needed to the gauss pop was just as viable

[Alienized]

Prosperity Park, on 15 July 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

You can still play Gauss PPC. You fire your PPCs then fire the Gauss. Or fire the Gauss then fire the PPCs.

L2Keep your Aim.

that as well. it aint that hard but to some people everything seems to be like a climb on top of mount everest. ffs.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Grus, on 15 July 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

well we already have worse lasers than IS for the brawl (high heat/duration/cooldown) and our ghost heat just makes that worse. Add to that our ac's are a stream of damage instead of pinpoint 1 shot for X damage. So we already have plenty of drawbacks.

Well, Heavy Lasers are supposed to be the Clans' brawling lasers, it's just that their duration and cooldown are still too high right now.

Clan ACs are burst-fire because like the PPCs, they're smaller and lighter, not to mention longer-ranged than the IS versions. You can run two class 10 ACs in the side torsos WITH XL engines, while the IS can't even run 2 LB10-Xs with LFE, you can also run a Class 20 AC with XL, while the IS can't do that with theirs.

[LastKhan]

Rampage, on 15 July 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

The thing is, when cats are angry or ready to fight, they always lay their ears back. Therefore, your original concept art is much better and looks more like a really pi$$ed off kitty.

I agree with that i think they should be lowered, but i wanted to just tweak PGI's artist rendition of it a bit in hopes they take my fixes and apply it to their current art. I can make a version where it is down? maybe something else for pgi to consider?

[Pariah Devalis]

Rampage, on 15 July 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

The thing is, when cats are angry or ready to fight, they always lay their ears back. Therefore, your original concept art is much better and looks more like a really pi$$ed off kitty.

Agreed. Told him that when he originally redesigned the logo. However, I think he's just trying to nudge the logo abomination in the direction of actually looking good. Plus, that odd design choice of upright ears was in the source logo.

I'd love for the ears to be flattened, but it's not a deal breaker.

[Wintersdark]

Grus, on 15 July 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

but why would a IS player want a clan laser? They try to do their black knight/warhammer/battlemaster/banchee build with clan tech they will kill themselves after the 2nd or 3rd alpha. They don't need the range because their 'LL can still do damn good damage out to 1200m... Add to that the speed they can move to get in range to use the superior mid range brawl Now that we don't have the ppcgauss combo any more.

Unrelated discussion - that was about mixtech. I didn't say all clan equipment was better; it's not, and it shouldn't be. I said mixtech would be bad because everyone would just cherrypick the best and there'd be no faction identity at all anymore.

You seem to be working hard to make this a "*sob* us poor clanners" discussion. That's separate. If Clans end up weaker after this release (totally possible, mind you, we'll have to wait and see) then yeah, there'll need to be some buffs.

But I'm not getting on the "Us poor clammers" train right now. We've had an outright advantage almost 100% of the time for the past few years - one that's been gradually shrinking. Maybe now we're right on par, maybe we're weaker. We'll see.



Maybe losing cERPPC+Gauss will be a problem. If you're right, and we totally needed it to compete.... then it's A GOOD CHANGE to break it.

Then maybe we can get better lasers, ballistics, etc, then it's totally worthwhile IMHO. It's already lead to our getting a better cERPPC, so there's that.

Crutches are bad for everyone.

[Cy Mitchell]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

That's just dumb.

What part of this don't you understand? This is a faction based PvP game. You need faction vs. faction balance in a faction vs. faction PvP game. There's no workable alternative. Telling everyone to play the same faction is totally absurd.

If you just go mixtech, then there's literally no factions left and it's purely cosmetic. If you go Mixtech except for engines, then Clan is simply better (as Clan engines are dramatically better than IS engines).

I get where you are coming from with the game set up as it is now. However, is the faction stuff not all cosmetic anyway. What if MWO actually followed the "Mercenary" part of its names and made every unit a Merc unit. Turn the factions into just enities that you could take contracts from. Let the mercenaries fight for whomever they wish as they do now but let them use whatever tech (Mechs) they have in their inventory. You could still have Clan purist who would be units from certain Clans that would contract with other Clans to fight a campaign. You could still have IS purist that fought only for IS factions. But everyone would be treated as a Merc unit. The scope of the battles could get smaller and more manageable than the entire IS map as it is now. Much of the problems with FP is that PGI was too ambitious and their goals were too loft. Had they focused on a specific part of space and smaller conflicts like HBS is doing and like PGI is doing for MW-5 then their likelihood of success would have been much higher.

Way off topic but your comments dredged up old ideas I have had on the subject.

[Grus]

Prosperity Park, on 15 July 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

Wait, my laser that maxes at 675m does just fine at 1200m?

*Eyebrows cocked*

sorry I did say the 'LL was the one I was talking about Right? If I didn't Sorry. Yes I've had fresh armor burnt to a crisp at long range by the 'LL not er. The ER is just as good at extreme range as the clan version.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Well damn, I completely missed the changes to the heavy lasers, 6->6.5 damage on the HSL and 16->18 damage on the HLL, assuming the HLL damage isn't a typo, that's going to make the duration acceptable (better damage/tick than the LPL). I certainly approve of this change.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

You're not wrong, but I think you're missing the point here.

Gauss+PPC was certainly not OP, nor was it an overwhelming meta (and indeed, as you say, things have been shifting away anyways).

Why? For all the reasons you say. Gauss+PPC is only really effective in midrange, where you're still able to get good combined hits with accuracy. At long range, the desynchronisation of projectile speeds ensured there was spread.

With you 100%.

The problem with this is that PPC's, outside of Gauss+PPC combos, are pretty garbage overall. It's why PPC's had their velocity so severely nerfed. And they couldn't buff PPC velocity without making Gauss+PPC too good again.

So, we where in a place where Gauss+PPC was usable and decent in midrange, but PPC's on their own where not very good at all, but buffing those PPC's was highly problematic as they couldn't increase speed without dramatically buffing Gauss+PPC, and the last couple years of +/- heat changes on PPC's was just not doing the job.


So, yes, Gauss+PPC is less effective now, but we're in a place where ERPPC's have finally been buffed back to a good level as weapons in their own right. 1900m/s is a HUGE buff, and it's one that couldn't happen when Gauss+ERPPC was an option.

The Ghost Heat change means you can still run Gauss+1ERPPC just fine for 25pt hits (now with much greater long range accuracy, mind you!) but there's less fear of Gauss+PPC becoming OP again with PPC buffs.


I, for one, am very happy to see PPC's be less crappy. I'll miss my gauss+ppc mechs (I've always liked the combo, and never been upset about it personally even in it's heyday) but I'm tired of PPC's being kind of junk weapons otherwise.

A lot of people go full 100% terrible, or 100% perfect in these kinds of discussions, and it really disgusts me...

But, not you Wintersdark I always find your posts to be insightful and interesting. There are a precious few people on here worth reading, so thank you, stay the course <o