1809 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Chados, on 23 July 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Merge it, my man. Merge it!

Merged, it has been done,

[TiguriusX]

I understand this is a sensitive topic for us gamers but there is a ton of BS flying around in here just adding noise to the topic.

If you aren't familiar with the law try to control your suggestions.

This isn't harassment or vexatious litigation. People have the right to pursue legal rights they believe they have (even if they might be wrong)

It is rare for something to be considered harassment/vexatious litigation. It does happen though. My father was a trial attorney and one of the opposing parties he defeated was a crazy person. She filed hundreds and hundreds of suits against him following that. The courts took away her right to file in the courts. That is harassment/vexatious litigation.

This lawsuit is fairly standard business.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

I'm curious if HG had to give their nod for the changes made to PGI designs or if PGI decided they changed details enough to get past all this nonsense.

The damage that HG has done to gaming and keeps on creating more chaos should make all true gamers despise them.

[orcrist86]

Bud Crue, on 23 July 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

If Para. 39 is factual, then it sure looks like HBS is gonna be writing a check.

If they agreed not to use derivative works as part of their original settlement (not just infringing, but also merely derivative works) and they are now using such derivative works that they got from PGI...oops.

He didn't remake anything. PGI did, and they have no agreement

[Novakaine]

Just a basic troll patent/infrigment case hoping PGI or someone will play for it to go away.
The government has busting patent trolls left and right in the past two years.
HG is hoping they don't get noticed.
Good luck with that.

[Alexander of Macedon]

HG scumfuckers are pretty much the only people capable of making me feel sympathetic and protective towards PGI. Their trashfire of an asset-squatting excuse for a company needs to screw off and die twenty years ago so that we can get Macross and BTech without having to jump through ten thousand hoops.

[SMDMadCow]

this has gone on way too long and needs a court to settle the issue once and for all.

[Magnus Santini]

I hope they get their butt handed to them so the honest hardworking game makers can carry on actually benefiting society.

[RaptorRage]

I can't tell if the person that selected those images for the comparisons is an idiot or a genius, because the Locust is derived from the Ostall from Crusher Joe, the Atlas from the Scopedog in Armored Trooper VOTOMS and the Shadow Hawk from the Dougram Combat Armor in Fang of the Sun Dougram. All anime series or movies that have nothing to do with what Harmony Gold has dubious claims over.

[Kin3ticX]

According to legal docs, HG sent a nasty email to PGI in Oct 2016, then filed the suit in March 2017. So the trouble started whereabouts late 2016.

PGI also went to HG with concept art twice in 2013 and was told nope and nope. From the doc they use the names of the mechs which makes it pretty clear they inquired about the Warhammer and Marauder.

Fast foward to fall 2015 during the townhall where they launched the Marauder/Warhammer and Russ said they would defend their classic mechs as their own.

Here is the townhall if anyone wants to relisten at the ~55:00 mark
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/15444238


I have no idea how any of this **** works but just from skimming through this garbo it seems they think its derivative of their IP.

[Pariah Devalis]

Kin3ticX, on 23 July 2017 - 09:00 PM, said:

According to legal docs, HG sent a nasty email to PGI in Oct 2016, then filed the suit in March 2017. So the trouble started whereabouts late 2016.

PGI also went to HG with concept art twice in 2013 and was told nope and nope. From the doc they use the names of the mechs which makes it pretty clear they inquired about the Warhammer and Marauder.

Fast foward to fall 2015 during the townhall where they launched the Marauder/Warhammer and Russ said they would defend their classic mechs as their own.

Here is the townhall if anyone wants to relisten at the ~55:00 mark
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/15444238


I have no idea how any of this **** works but just from skimming through this garbo it seems they think its derivative of their IP.

So what if it is? Only Weisman was bound not to create derivative works. PGI was under no such binding, and derivative work in art is not generally something that is considered legally in conflict with the original, if it is suitably different from the original work.

I'd say PGI is safe in everything, with exception of the Rifleman. Aside from the radar and some details on the arm, it is extremely close to the original art. Art which HG doesn't actually own anyways.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 23 July 2017 - 09:05 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Pariah Devalis, on 23 July 2017 - 09:04 PM, said:

So what if it is? Only Weisman was bound not to create derivative works. PGI was under no such binding, and derivative work in art is not generally something that is considered legally in conflict with the original, if it is suitably different from the original work.

I'd say PGI is safe in everything, with exception of the Rifleman. Aside from the radar and some details on the arm, it is extremely close to the original art. Art which HG doesn't actually own anyways.

Seems to me the only way to be 100% safe with derivative work is if its a mockery or parody.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Pariah Devalis, on 23 July 2017 - 09:04 PM, said:

So what if it is? Only Weisman was bound not to create derivative works. PGI was under no such binding, and derivative work in art is not generally something that is considered legally in conflict with the original, if it is suitably different from the original work.

I'd say PGI is safe in everything, with exception of the Rifleman. Aside from the radar and some details on the arm, it is extremely close to the original art. Art which HG doesn't actually own anyways.

I think the Rifleman is fine since PGI made the barrels uneven, made some spaced apart energy hard points around the cockpit, and the cockpit sides are completely exposed while the Destroid Defender has enclosures around it's outside area. PGI also made the IS Rifleman's arms more beefier and I don't think they can copyright stupid things like the radar. If HG were dumb enough to do that (might as well be since everyone is catching onto the fact that they are IP trolls), then maybe the US Military should step in and sue Harmony Gold for plagiarism of radar equipment.

Does anyone know who owns the rights to Victor Musical Industries now? That has some of my favorite mech designs, but I wonder if PGI used artwork such as Rick Harris's RFL-IIC would be in the clear. In his artwork, the circular radar dish is a lot larger than the original VMI art and the cockpit is completely redesigned. Ironically it has the whole MW:O artwork style going for it as well.

Edited by Arnold The Governator, 23 July 2017 - 09:44 PM.

[James Argent]

HG might as well be claiming they own the concept of humanoid fighting machines. "Look, this mech design has two legs and a central attachment point between them...it's obviously based on one of our designs."

[TheMundaneYesYes]

James Argent, on 23 July 2017 - 09:25 PM, said:

HG might as well be claiming they own the concept of humanoid fighting machines. "Look, this mech design has two legs and a central attachment point between them...it's obviously based on one of our designs."

I would love for them to try that with Bandai, makes me warm with what they would do to them mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[AzureRathalos]

Scout Derek, on 23 July 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

Here's a page from the document of them trying to claim copyright over generic features;

-SNIPPED TO SAVE SPACE-

Like, I think HG just has a mental issue that their IP is failing whilst ours grows in interest for many years.

I'm not a lawyer and this is dreadfully oversimplifying things, but it's good enough to get the idea across:

Actually, there's a very good reason for what they've done there. If HG manages to get away with "This arm looks similar" or "This gun looks similar" in court, they can get a blanket statement that would allow them to go at anyone with "similar details" and have the trial favored heavily toward them. They could theoretically go at anyone who makes giant robot stuff.

The thing is, the less specific you are, the less likely you are to win. There was a case a while back where Games Workshop was suing Chapterhouse Studios, a company that made aftermarket parts for Warhammer and Warhammer 40k kits. Chapterhouse blatantly ripped designs, emblems, names, and details. The case should have been open and shut. However, GW did not go at the specifics and tried to make a wider net so that they could catch other 3rd party parts makers. The details they provided were way too vague (IIRC, one claim was simply on curved shoulderpads) and Chapterhouse won.

Edit: Typos.

Edited by AzureRathalos, 23 July 2017 - 11:20 PM.

[Sigmar Sich]

Maybe HG had good stuff once, but now it's just a parasite. Good thing is BT developers coalition seems to be stronger than last time. And if HG lose this case, maybe we will see other unseen mechs, like "in your face, HG"

[Stonefalcon]

PGI has some time then, to form a contract with Boston Dynamics so they can build an actual Annihilator and park it outside Harmony Gold's HQ.

[Dee Eight]

davoodoo, on 23 July 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

Remind me what harmony gold is?? the company who owns unseen marauder??

Harmony Gold was the company which acquired the world wide (outside of Japan and some close asian markets), the re-broadcast rights to the anime series Super Dimensional Fortress Macross... which became the first third of their "robotech" series (the other two were Super Dimensional Calvary Southern Cross, and Genesis Climber Mospeada which aren't at all related to macross other than sharing similar animation studios and some animators). This was all they acquired (and this has been proven in Japanese court battles which HG lost). They didn't actually own the concepts/character creations, or any derivatives, sequels, etc.

They've however acted like they actually owned the IP including the original artwork (as opposed to simply the broadcast rights for a 36 episode animated tv show from 35 years ago)... and acted like bullies against other companies... ironically including at one time Hasbro toys... who had used the same toy moulds for the original Valkyrie fighter from SDF:Macross, for their Jetfire transformers figure.

They have gone after FASA before...avoided going after Wizkids (who had boatloads more money for lawyers and would have fought the case through to a trial) when they had the license are were making the toy figures which included mechs that look very much like the originals and now seem desperate to go after HBS/PGI.

More info here...

https://en.wikipedia...armony_Gold_USA

"
Legal issues regarding Macross copyright

Harmony Gold, via its license of Robotech, is the co-copyright owner in the US for images of mecha from the component series of the show, Super Dimension Fortress Macross, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross, and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA. They have pursued multiple lawsuits against anyone using mecha which even vaguely resemble these designs.
Most notably, many early designs used in Battletech, such as the Warhammer, Valkyrie, and Marauder, were licensed directly from the Japanese producers of Macross, with the overlapping rights mistake not being realized for nearly a decade. Harmony Gold sued FASA, and as a result these designs were removed from the game. Fan outcry over 'The Unseen' has led to multiple attempts to negotiate deals allowing for resumed use of the designs, but despite in one case a sourcebook going to press before being abruptly pulled, no deal has ever been reached. As a result of the failed negotiations, the producers of Battletech ruled that any designs not developed in house would no longer be used in order to avoid future issues.
Harmony Gold issued cease and desist orders against sites displaying images and trailers from the deceased video game MechWarrior, due to one of the mechs used in the trailer being a Warhammer.^[18] The company claims that the images portray ’mechs that they own the rights to, according to a legal settlement from 1996.^[19]
The legal status of Harmony Gold's license to Macross is dubious. Harmony Gold's license for Macross came from Tatsunoko Production, but Japanese courts ruled that it was Studio Nue (creators of the series) that controls the Macross intellectual property. The license Tatsunoko was given was for international distribution outside Japan only, and does not allow them to control the intellectual property. According to the US Copyright Office, Harmony Gold is the Co-Copyright owner.
In 2013, Harmony Gold claimed in Federal Court that Hasbro's SDCC 2013 exclusive set "G.I. Joe vs Transformers The Epic Conclusion" violated their copyright license and trademarks on the animated Japanese Macross TV series (1982–84).^[20] On September 23, 2013, Harmony Gold's suit against Hasbro was dismissed, and Hasbro was allowed to continue to sell the sets. Hasbro and Harmony Gold came to an agreement."



Also watch this...

[Dee Eight]

Scout Derek, on 23 July 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

yes, as well as back then dealings with PGI over copyrights for the Unseen mechs, some of which are now in-game after such a long time.





Here's a page from the document of them trying to claim copyright over generic features;




Like, I think HG just has a mental issue that their IP is failing whilst ours grows in interest for many years.

Pretty much all japanese anime from the 80s-90s followed the same trends in battle robot type art work. Patlabor, all the Macross titles, Southern Cross, Mospeada, Gasaraki, all the gundams, dougram, and more. To claim they own the copyright for work they had nothing to do with in the first place is especially rich. I hope this actually goes to trial and a judge gives a ruling...