1809 replies to this topic

[Sereglach]

Arnold The Governator, on 23 June 2018 - 10:09 AM, said:

The only evidence I really see that dismisses the "current group of classic mechs in MW:O" theory is that we are getting the Incubus, which was a mech VMI created specifically for Battletech and lumped into the unseen category due to FASA's dumb *** decision making when HG went after them back in the day. So from what I'm gathering here, it seems like VMI created mechs are safe (including unused artwork), but others are expressing their concern over the Stinger/Wasp/Crusader/Longbow/etc since we are extremely limited with details and are only left with the term "classics" from Russ.

Ok, that's not the only piece of evidence. The bigger piece of evidence is right in the docket regarding the dismissal; and it's been mentioned a number of times, already. CGL was also released "to avoid confusion". HG was suing CGL over all of the original macross unseen that they had reimagined as their own version of the classics. CGL had already completed several others that PGI hasn't, like the Valkyrie, Stinger, and Wasp. If they hadn't gotten to the Crusader and Longbow, yet, it doesn't matter. HG agreed to complete dismissal with prejudice "to avoid confusion", meaning that in order to prevent any issues of confusion over whether or not HG can and/or will sue about the classics in the future HG also dropped the case against CGL and "Does 1-10".

The evidence against HG was far too stacked against them; and as you even partially referenced, in order for HG to avoid sanctions against them AND to prevent a courtroom decision which would open them up to ~30 years of bullying victims coming back with lawsuits against them, HG came crawling to the settlement table with their tail between their legs. HG lost big-time on this dismissal . . . and it's not a little loss or a "just wait until the next people come along" loss . . . they lost HUGE. I'd say this is probably an even bigger loss for HG then the Hasbro vs. HG Jetfire settlement, where HG also fled with their tail between their legs.

[DFM]

evilauthor, on 23 June 2018 - 06:48 AM, said:

Except according to the document, they can't go after the Battletech IP again no matter which company (existing or future) is using it.

Obviously, that doesn't save anyone else, but as a Battletech fan, do we care about them?

Eh, I want to see the Crusader in MWO and HBS' Battletech, if only as a test case to see how HG interprets the agreement. As others have mentioned, there's some ambiguity as to whether the current still Unseen are covered by term "Classics" in the document.

No, they can't sue over those specific items again.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

I've been on cloud nine, despite being sick, ever since I heard about this.

It's just, it's hard to believe that it's finally come to an end, after 30 years, so many projects shut down, so much ******** regarding Harmony Gold, and it took PGI... P...G...I... of all companies, to get them to back the hell off our beloved franchise.

I really, REALLY hope Mechwarrior 5 is good, because, at this rate, they've got a sale for it already from me. And if they drop another unseen, I'll probably snag that too.

[Alex Morgaine]

Now the final wait until either they release one more true macross unseen or inform us the reason they cannot is confidential.

[Chiasson Brinker]

And what's left to release? The Wasp/Stinger/Valkyrie and the Longbow. The IS have plenty of light mechs already and there's nothing that the trio do that can't already be done better by the Jenner/Locust/Flea. Ditto there's nothing that the Longbow can do that can't be done by the Stalker or Atlas.

And who honestly wants the Ost series?

[Trystan Thorne]

I know some people like to be pessimistic to not be disappointed (in this case if no new unseen are released).
I don't understand why some people see this as a victory for HG (not just here, but on other forums and within friends).

The way I see it.
This is either a big win or a small win.
It's at least a small win as PGI can keep using the so far released unseen.
We'll know if it's a big win if we see new unseen and also see them used by HBS and Catalyst.

And even if HG received money, this is the first time if I remember correctly, that content had not to be pulled.

[Sereglach]

Aidan Kell, on 23 June 2018 - 09:11 PM, said:

And what's left to release? The Wasp/Stinger/Valkyrie and the Longbow. The IS have plenty of light mechs already and there's nothing that the trio do that can't already be done better by the Jenner/Locust/Flea. Ditto there's nothing that the Longbow can do that can't be done by the Stalker or Atlas.

And who honestly wants the Ost series?

I'm going to hope this is just sarcasm, but in the event that it's not . . . I'll give you some solid reasons for inclusion of the remaining classics, aside from the fact that quirks and chassis traits can differentiate anything.

1. The Wasp and Stinger and jumping 20 tonners . . . something neither faction has right now. There's also a great deal of build variety among their variants.
2. The Valkyrie gives the 30 ton bracket a highly agile, jumping, and missile carrying mech that also has backup weapons (not counting hero mechs).
3. You're forgetting the Crusader, which would have hardpoints that'd allow it to be an incredibly flexible chassis in a 65 ton weight class filled mostly with specialists.
4. The Longbow actually has something the Stalker doesn't have (Atlas isn't comparable as a 100 ton chassis), and that's a dedicated ballistic platform . . . something we don't have in the 85 ton bracket. The 85 and 95 ton brackets are also the least populated assault brackets; and could use more variety.
5. The Ostscout would give the IS a 35 ton mech with potential engine caps that would make it the fastest mech in the game.
6. The heavy Ost (Ostroc and Ostsol) both provide the 60 ton bracket with needed variety (currently the most sparsely populated heavy tonnage bracket) as well as more specialized energy variants vs. the jack-of-all-trades Dragon, the missile favoring Quickdraw (minus the 5K), and the ballistic favoring Rifleman (minus the 5D).
Last, and most important of all:
7. The classics are the original mechs of Battletech . . . it goes beyond nostalgia to have them brought back into Battletech. It, in essences, allows Battletech to have a great deal of its roots and origins returned to the franchise. That's not just for PGI, but CGL, HBS, and anyone else that ever wants to make anything Battletech in the future. It can and will revitalize the brand and return a great deal of strength back to its base. The publicity of this unshackling, alone, is already bringing a great deal of attention back to Battletech.

Edited by Sereglach, 23 June 2018 - 10:00 PM.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Aidan Kell, on 23 June 2018 - 09:11 PM, said:

And what's left to release?

Plenty. Not even including the IS unreleased unseens that was already mentioned we have the:

1. Rifleman IIC - A 65 ton clan battlemech that would be the clan equivalent heavier armored jagermech (clans still don't have anything to match the IS Jagermech/Rifleman line up yet). More about this mech is in my signature with build theories/variety/history/etc.

2. Warhammer IIC - An 80 ton clan walking tank on legs. Might be some serious power creep with this one, but would be an excellent addition to have non the less to complete the MW:2 classic line up (only thing missing after the RFL-IIC and WHM-IIC would be the Firemoth).

3. Phoenix Hawk IIC - The other 80 ton contender in the assault category to the WHM-IIC. Has some pretty interesting builds going for it. The good thing about both 80 tonners in this case is that PGI wouldn't have to worry about non lore friendly variants with the IICs, since there are so many canon variants to choose from with the current time line.

4. Shadow Hawk IIC - Not a bad mech with plenty of variety to fill the 45 tonnage medium bracket. As with the other unreleased unseens, plenty of variety for PGI to choose from plus whatever hero the decide to make for it.

5. Griffin IIC - A 40 tonner with just enough varients to fill 4 canon mech varieties with the current time line with the addition of one hero.

6. Locust IIC - I've made some pretty excellent builds with this capable little 25 tonner. It would definitely give the other lights we currently have in the game a good run for their money.

This is not even tapping into the remaining mechs from VMI. With that category we can get:

7. Nexus

8.Raijin

9.Grand Crusader

10.Stone Rhino (Behemoth)

11.Bane (Kraken)

12.Howler (Baboon)

13.Incubus (Vixen) (Just recently announced)

14. Horned Owl (Peregrine)

15. Conjurer (Hellhound)

16. Vapor Eagle (Goshawk)

17. Glass Spider (Galahad)

18. Black Python (Viper) (not to be confused with the existing Viper in game)

So yeah, that is 17 completely new mechs that PGI can access from just the VMI category alone. Add that with Sereglach's list and I'd say that is more than enough mechs for PGI to fill in from the unseen category.

[PheonixStorm]

Sereglach, on 23 June 2018 - 09:56 PM, said:

4. The Longbow actually has something the Stalker doesn't have (Atlas isn't comparable as a 100 ton chassis), and that's a dedicated ballistic platform . . . something we don't have in the 85 ton bracket. The 85 and 95 ton brackets are also the least populated assault brackets; and could use more variety.

.... The Longbow is NOT a ballistic platform. It is a LRM spamming behemoth. 2X LRM 20 and 2X LRM 5. There is a version that has 2X LRM 20s and 2X LRM 15s.

Ok so just checked the case and found an odd docket entry

#128 REPORT on the determination of an action. Mailed to the US Copyright Office (SWT)
https://www.courtlis...42820.128.0.pdf <~ its odd but... any lawyers out there want to take a guess why this popped up??

Edited by PheonixStorm, 27 June 2018 - 11:03 PM.

[Requiemking]

PheonixStorm, on 27 June 2018 - 10:52 PM, said:

.... The Longbow is NOT a ballistic platform. It is a LRM spamming behemoth. 2X LRM 20 and 2X LRM 5. There is a version that has 2X LRM 20s and 2X LRM 15s.

He is referring to the NAIS variant, which is a ballistic boat. Granted, it boats LAC5s, but still.

[PheonixStorm]

Haven't seen that one before, might have to give it a try in megamek.

[Hemholtz]

PheonixStorm, on 27 June 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

Ok so just checked the case and found an odd docket entry

#128 REPORT on the determination of an action. Mailed to the US Copyright Office (SWT)
https://www.courtlis...42820.128.0.pdf <~ its odd but... any lawyers out there want to take a guess why this popped up??

Interested in what lawyers think of this as well....

[yrrot]

Not a lawyer, but that would appear to be a formality filed to update the records for the Robotech IP that HG has. It just shows that HG filed a claim against HBS/PGI, and the that case was terminated by the parties involved and no order was required. I'm guessing that gets put into a file somewhere for the copyright as a record of cases involving it.

All of the attached paperwork is the filing that HG did when they licensed the animation for Robotech in the 80's, etc.

[Tom Sawyer]

I suspect that PGI had to sign something that says they will not bad mouth, befoul, or besmirch Harmony Gold. So even if we get the remaining unseen mechs in future packs PGI will not be allowed to have the kill the Hairy Gorilla, or the Hemorrhoidic Gonads sale lol

[Requiemking]

PheonixStorm, on 28 June 2018 - 01:21 AM, said:

Haven't seen that one before, might have to give it a try in megamek.

The full designation for it is LGB-13NAIS. It's equipped with endo, a Standard engine, C3 slave, and GECM. Armaments amount to 6 LAC5s split between the arms with seven tons of ammo(to maximise use of special ammunition), two ERMLs, an ERSL, and two BPods.

[C E Dwyer]

Well

If the rest of the unseen come out, and the Crusader doesn't look terrible, I might even down load the game again

[Sereglach]

Requiemking, on 27 June 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

He is referring to the NAIS variant, which is a ballistic boat. Granted, it boats LAC5s, but still.

Thanks for putting that in (been a long day). Yes, that's the variant I'm referring to; and if PGI put it in (or a PGI derivative, like what they did for the Shadowcat variant converting 6 AP Gauss to 6 MGs) it'd have a minimum of 6 ballistic hardpoints, thereby giving the 85 ton IS weight class something it lacks . . . a dedicated ballistic platform.

Although it seems like a perfect time to introduce LAC weapons to the game, if you ask me. Of course, there's a lot of neat toys I'd like to get my hands on . . . like Plasma Rifles and Cannons.

Edited by Sereglach, 28 June 2018 - 12:24 PM.

[Anjian]

Battletech at Facebook announcement.

[Chados]

PheonixStorm, on 27 June 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

.... The Longbow is NOT a ballistic platform. It is a LRM spamming behemoth. 2X LRM 20 and 2X LRM 5. There is a version that has 2X LRM 20s and 2X LRM 15s.

Ok so just checked the case and found an odd docket entry

#128 REPORT on the determination of an action. Mailed to the US Copyright Office (SWT)
https://www.courtlis...42820.128.0.pdf &lt;~ its odd but... any lawyers out there want to take a guess why this popped up??

They’ve advised the Copyright Office that their copyrights aren’t in question because of this lawsuit, that’s how I take it.

My experience in litigation tells me that there has got to be some form of limited license HG has granted PGI for the Macross-derived Unseen/Reseen already in game. I speculate that part of the settlement has some sort of mechanism to prevent future PGI/InMediaRes challenge of HG’s ownership of the Unseen in return for getting off PGI’s and InMediaRes’s collective backs. I suspect that HG was concerned enough about the possibility of a jury either not understanding the technicalities of their argument and ruling for PGI...costing them everything...or that they potentially wouldn’t be able to prove PGI wrong at trial (as plaintiff, they had the burden of proof), potentially costing them everything, thus giving PGI the license they’ve been asking for since the year dot was the easiest way out that protected what they have. Refusing PGI the license in the first place was just a supremely stupid business move on their part, in my view. And for PGI, all they wanted was the license for the Marauder, Rifleman, Archer, Warhammer, and Phoenix Hawk-the highest profile and most universally beloved of the classic Unseen. They got it-we know they got it, because the Alpha Lance and PXH are still in MWO, we just don’t know whether the license encompasses MW5-so their main litigation objective (protection of the existing product) was satisfied.

We will be able to retrospectively determine the contours of PGI’s license in the future. Time will tell. If we see mechs like the Wasp, Stinger, Crusader, or Longbow announced in future mechpacks for MWO, or we suddenly see Marauders in new CGL published TROs, or we suddenly see a Rifleman in MW5 promos, or we start seeing new variants of the Alpha Lance mechs released, all that will tell us something. And the absence of all these things, along with PGI staff ignoring the proliferation of threads demanding new Unseen be released in MWO, will tell us other things.

Edited by Chados, 30 June 2018 - 02:54 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Anjian, on 29 June 2018 - 10:58 PM, said:

Battletech at Facebook announcement.

Am i the only one who got a ****-eating grin when seeing the image of this marauder with the announcement?

Felt a bit like a bitchslap towards HG