128 replies to this topic

[Rogue Jedi]

Gagis, on 30 July 2017 - 05:56 AM, said:

The rifleman is just that much smaller that it can't effectively run loadouts like dual gauss or dual UAC20, which the Jagermech can do. The Rifleman also has slightly lower arms and taller center torso, which make it an easier target when one is peeking over a hill.

I agree with the tonage issue (the Jagermech has about 3 more tons for the same speed), but the height issue is not as simple as you make it sound, the Rifleman is taller than the Jagermech and has its arms about level with the cockpit, so slightly lower than the arms on the JM6 but the Jagermech has its arms way above the cockpit, the thing is the cockpit on the JM6 is lower than the cockpit on the RFL, so assuming you want to see where you are shooting at there is no real diferance in how much of the Mech you expose with the Jagermech compaired to the Rifleman.
the link below ilustrates this.
https://1drv.ms/i/s!...VZKTTPA8AOWhsB7

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 30 July 2017 - 07:42 AM.

[GreyMatter51]

Ok, I decided and bought the Rifleman 3C. I have been playing with the loadouts on it a little and feel like I am struggling. I have been trying different weapons just to get a feel for them and I am having a hard time getting any amount of damage. This could be from where I am still learning the maps and the game as well as the lack of skills in the skill tree. I will give it time and also try to look up some builds to get some ideas of things to try on this Mech.

Edited by GreyMatter51, 30 July 2017 - 02:25 PM.

[Koniving]

GreyMatter51, on 30 July 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

Ok, I decided and bought the Rifleman 3C. I have been playing with the loadouts on it a little and feel like I am struggling. I have been trying different weapons just to get a feel for them and I am having a hard time getting any amount of damage. This could be from where I am still learning the maps and the game as well as the lack of skills in the skill tree. I will give it time and also try to look up some builds to get some ideas of things to try on this Mech.

Play with loadouts in here to make sure they work (so you don't risk spending cbills unnecessarily). Once you get something you think you might play with, then make it in game.
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=388
What weapons in particular are you using, and where are you aiming on enemies?

Edited by Koniving, 30 July 2017 - 03:23 PM.

[Burning2nd]

yeah lol lil decimal point typo there...

[GreyMatter51]

Koniving, on 30 July 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

Play with loadouts in here to make sure they work (so you don't risk spending cbills unnecessarily). Once you get something you think you might play with, then make it in game.

What weapons in particular are you using, and where are you aiming on enemies?

Currently running 2x ac/5 (with 4 tons of ammo) and 4x ERML and ams for defense (and had the tonnage to spare). I have swapped over to ES and FF to gain some weight back. Still using a standard engine but have bumped it up to a 260. This mech is surprisingly quick for a heavy even with the stock engine I felt. I haven't felt too bad on the weapons that I have bought to try out as I feel they will get used on other mechs eventually .

On skills, which tree is the better choice to start with? I am thinking about getting the advanced zoom to help with the longer range shots and then going in to the firepower tree to get the various buff for the weapons to make them better. Is it worthwhile going in to the survival tree to help mitigate some of the fragility of the mech?

[Koniving]

Stick to endo steel, Ferro isn't really worth it since the actual weight savings depends on how close you get to maximum armor.
Do you have double heatsinks? This is almost required for any mech given the way MWO handles firing rates.

It's worth digging into survival. If you're pressed for slots, then go along the right side prioritizing skeletal density and reinforced casing. It won't do much for the armor but the second layer of health (structure) will take quite a bit of buffing considering the quirks already enhancing the base structure amounts. Funneling the armor forward in the mechlab can also help since you plan on fighting at range.

Advanced zoom is worth while if you think it will be. It's only 2 or 3 slots to get it.

64.8 kph is pretty standard for IS heavies and tankier IS mediums. Some IS heavies stock at 81 kph.

Since you're using ER lasers, the "Laser Duration" quirks are something you especially want to look into.
If you think the AC/5s are a bit lacking in power, you could try "Ultra/5s". Double tap for fun. Focus your fire on specific body parts and do your best to consistently hit them if you want to feel effective.

Also put the missing link back into the earlier post.

[GreyMatter51]

Koniving, on 30 July 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

Stick to endo steel, Ferro isn't really worth it since the actual weight savings depends on how close you get to maximum armor.
Do you have double heatsinks? This is almost required for any mech given the way MWO handles firing rates.

It's worth digging into survival. If you're pressed for slots, then go along the right side prioritizing skeletal density and reinforced casing. It won't do much for the armor but the second layer of health (structure) will take quite a bit of buffing considering the quirks already enhancing the base structure amounts. Funneling the armor forward in the mechlab can also help since you plan on fighting at range.

Advanced zoom is worth while if you think it will be. It's only 2 or 3 slots to get it.

64.8 kph is pretty standard for IS heavies and tankier IS mediums. Some IS heavies stock at 81 kph.

Since you're using ER lasers, the "Laser Duration" quirks are something you especially want to look into.
If you think the AC/5s are a bit lacking in power, you could try "Ultra/5s". Double tap for fun. Focus your fire on specific body parts and do your best to consistently hit them if you want to feel effective.

Also put the missing link back into the earlier post.

I have switched to double heat sinks in order to help the heat out on the warmer maps. its still seems a little hot but I have also been playing on the warmer maps so hard to tell.

I have tried the uac/5 but I have to get used to the way they fire and it really seems they jam very often (worst so far was both jamming on me at the start of a fight which cost me my mech for that fight). It just really feels like I am struggling to get what little damage I can get (I think i have been averaging around 100 damage per battle) and its just frustrating to me since to me that feels like I am not contributing to the match. A lot of it could be my fault (need to stay with the group and start taking some chances to get some damage in).

[Koniving]

Stay at range (the weapons display on the bottom right will tell you the longest ideal ranges for those weapons to do full damage, so try to stay at those ranges; too far and you will do significantly reduced damage, too close and bad guys will have a field day with you.

Rather than staying with the group (or running on your own), wait about 30 to 40 seconds before moving at all. This way you make sure you're not first to find the enemy and not caught alone.

Stick with the AC/5s for now. If you were firing the UAC/5s fast enough to jam often, the issue might be that you've 'needed' to fire it a bit too often. Alternatively, RAC/2 (less reliant on good aim since it's a spray weapon; same weight as the AC/5s). But wait til you've had a chance to try and get used to the AC/5s for now.

In the many Jager builds I demonstrated, you might notice some tricks such as machine guns (no heat generation) and chain fire antics (creating that lovely barrage of fire which keeps the heat from coming on at the same time so my heatsinks have time to try and cool things). Since you're using lasers you need time to let them cool off. In third person shooters it isn't uncommon to find cover, pop out to shoot and then re-enter cover. Doing this in MWO gives you time to let your mech cool off.

You should never have to do this as a Rifleman, if you are in a situation like this, something was done terribly wrong.. So stay back and take on enemies as you see them. (Note computer voices are edited; they tell a lot about what's going on).

Treat combat a bit more like this. Get out to where you can make your shot, shoot, and then retreat. Repeat as necessary.

Back up your allies from behind the front line, try to find high ground to shoot from. You want the enemies to be focused on your allies so that you can deliver damage to them unhampered. It's a bit cold, but that is how you will be most effective.

[CFC Conky]

Your build is fine. Firing four erMLs at once will drive your heat up and there are a couple of things you can do to mitigate that. You can fire them in pairs, chain-fire them, or maybe swap some for regular MLs since your ac5s have good range already.

As Koniving says, the Rifleman is a second-line mech, especially early in the match. I'm not a fan of advanced zoom but your mileage may vary. That said, it is useful to invest some points in the sensor tree to at least get some radar deprivation nodes.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 30 July 2017 - 09:49 PM.

[Gagis]

Your loadout sounds a little undergunned to me. Might get a bit more punch once you can afford a Light or XL engine.

As for skills, the survival tree is always very good return for investment. The firepower tree is also worth it especially for key nodes such as laser duration, ammo bin and LBX spread. In addition to those you want to route trough heat gen or cooldown nodes depending on if your loadout is bottlenecked by heat or dps.

Mobility tree is usually not worth it since you need to invest a substantial portion of your total skill points in order to get significant returns, but it is nevertheless essential for light mechs or mechs that struggle with their terrible torso twist or maximum speed. Jump jet tree has such low returns that it is worthless. Operations tree has those valuable heat management nodes but the number of invested points is awkwardly high which means that heat gen nodes from firepower tend to be better investment, but very hot energy-focused loadouts still often need 9 or at most 11 nodes in operations.

Sensors are also expensive but with some valuable nodes in there. I usually go for 40% or at most 60% radar deprivation but nothing ekse. Advanced zoom isnt usually very good. If aiming is challenhing the right solution is to tone mouse sensitivity WAY down. Many players play with far too twitchy mouse settings.

The auxiliary tree has the best return for invrstment by far, since double cool shots are absolutely overpowered on hot mechs and double air sttikes are outright broken on any mech. Awkwardly consumables also cost a lot of c-bills so using them might not be viable for a fresh player.

[Gagis]

I sketched somethin together in order to fit a bit more firepower into your rifleman http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d4561d632d7666f

The engine is a little small, leg armour is a little thin and the heat management is a bit tight, but all these things are likely wortv it for the dps. If you run out of heat, simply stop using the lasers for a while. Chain fire is a bad way to manage heat since what you really want is to quickly focus as much pin-point damage as possible into a single vulnerable component regardless of how much heat it takes to do so.

[Koniving]

That engine is just 5 units above the stock engine for a JM6-DD.

----

I've unmothballed the Rifle C. We'll see how it goes since I will also be getting some footage for it. Honestly the stock AC/10s weren't all that bad of an idea even if you needed to be a little closer to really benefit.

This is the personal rig that I have conceptualized based on how I play. There's a number of merits to this setup. As you might notice, it lacks an engine. Why is this a merit? Think about it. I designed what I wanted before worrying about how to power it. This tells me the amount of tonnage that I have left over after armor, weapons and equipment. It was originally 15 tons, but I squeezed an extra .5 to have an additional option.

Now, I could go with a 15 ton XL 290 engine. I will be fragile, but my speeds will be up to 78 kph without delving into the mobility tree and even faster if I do. Such speed would be ideal for relocating after being discovered or when threats too large for me to handle start coming my way. It will also allow me to climb steeper hills due to the higher speed which in turn gives me more torque when 'twisting' left and right to get more footing.

Or I could go with an LF 250 engine, capitalizing on a balance between speed and survivability. A speed of 67.5 kph without touching the mobility tree, not quite that of a 260 but certainly better than stock, still.

The choice in weapons was also done with a degree of flexibility in mind. For example I can swap to 4 Medium Lasers by switching to Ultra/5s, Or I could climb up to LB-10x by sacrificing the Light Machine Guns, or to AC/10s by dropping the LMGs and the ER SLs. I could use the same method to get 2 Light Gauss Rifles. Or I could drop the ACs altogether, sport 4 LMGs instead and change the lasers to twin PPCs + additional heatsinks or shove in 4 Light PPCs and fire them in sets of two (or 4 in emergencies).

There's a lot of options.

There's actually quite a few at stock, too, for example with the std 240, endo and double, change the AC/10s for twin Light Gauss, replace the ammo accordingly, stuff in 2 DHS and trade the 2 ML for 4 ER ML (or just 2 ER ML + more armor).

This rig strikes me as interesting, the STD 260 engine, 4 LMGs for emergencies (400 meters or less, spray away; best at 250 meters or less). Twin Heavy PPCs for a hefty though hot punch, each mounted on either side of the cockpit. 15 damage per HPPC. There's your big punch. The heat lets you know that you need to relocate after a couple of shots. Get a heat warning, take that as your queue to find another location to shoot from. Rinse and repeat.

Just remember no matter what, if you need to run away, never give your back. Learn to pilot backwards by using the minimap to help you navigate. This way you can shoot and fallback at the same time.

[Koniving]

Trying the Heavy PPC option I brought up the punch is pretty dang good but, it is really hot and lacked staying power in the long term. So what I did shortly after was switch to ER PPCs and added 6 double heatsinks.
Alternatively, switch to STD PPCs and only add 4 double heatsinks alongside 2 ER ML. Connect the ER MLs to the same firing group as the machine guns and fire them at the same time (ignore the bullets, they are functionally identical as hitscan weapons).

Either way the LMGs or LMGs + ER MLs are your secondary reserve weapon for when you are riding on too much heat or the enemy gets too close (respectively for ER PPCs to PPCs).

For identical weight to the 2 Heavy PPCs, you can bring 2 Rac/5s, drop the LMGs and its ammo to have some RAC/5 ammo or sport Rac/2s instead and some lasers on the side.

So there's a few standard 260 engine ideas. They won't have tremendous longevity but they can help serve as some experiments.

My results afterward were significantly better.

Edit: Will add videos tomorrow.

Edited by Koniving, 31 July 2017 - 11:43 AM.

[GreyMatter51]

One thing I have to say about this game is there are definately options when it comes to how you play/loadout your mech (I find myself spending more time looking at the mechs and playing with the loadouts than actually playing the game). That being said, I may have to kind of shelve the rifleman and pick up another mech (maybe one that is more forgiving to newer players) to get used to the game. Alternatively I am considering getting either a mech pack or at the very least a hero mech to help generate Cbills faster.

Again, I want to thank everyone that has posted. There has been quite a bit of good advice that I have tried to keep in mind as I play the game.

[Jingseng]

I should try and remember to add this to the advice I give; I forgot this time.

Most players end up regretting their first choice of mech, with the benefit of hindsight (or at least, they would have done things in a different order). In other words, chances are pretty good that no matter what we tell you, it's going to go poorly. Therefore, don't stress it too much.

In the end though, impatience just likes to **** on everyone's magnum opus.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Here's two more builds to try, I run both pretty successfully: RFL-3C 2x RAC/5, 2x MLas, AMS, RFL-3C 2x AC/10, 2x ERSLas.

You can fiddle with the ammo counts. Just keep in mind that with the Rifleman (and typically Jager as well) you're not going to get a respectable weapon load unless you either run XL or run a really weak LFE. STD is right out. It's not really a problem if you're playing them properly, since they're second-line hill-humpers that shouldn't be exposing more than the sliver needed to see and shoot.

Also, here's a quad AC/2 spam build, but only run that if you're going to use the macro, and even then accept that it's an underperformer, especially now that we have RAC/5. Niche is pretty much just long-range harassment and suppression now, since the velocity and range stretch farther than the RACs.

[SnagaDance]

Don't worry too much regretting your first purchase, it happens, once you've got more experience and return to it you'll probably do loads better.

At least you had the sense to come to the forums for advice, unlike me when I started.

I used my measly beginners C-bills (told the story about the 'rewards' for the first 25 matches back then already) plus my BattleTech boardgame knowledge to buy myself an Awesome.

Couldn't go wrong I thought, it's a Btech powerhouse, great armor and big weapons with excellent cooling. What I bought was a mech that was horribly big for its size (better nowadays with the resize), with easy to hit hitboxes, that was really slow (240 engine on an 80 tonner). So I was an easy target to hit and died quickly, meanwhile it also ran terribly hot so I wasn't dishing out the damage in return.

Now I didn't sell it, but I did put it in mothballs and bought myself a stock Jenner (spectating after dying I thought they looked great fun).

It was still incredibly hard as I had no C-bills left for upgrades. I had to scrape together each upgrade, Endo, Ferro, DHS and also that XL300 (getting the 4,9M C-bills for one of those with an almost stock Light takes quite some time for a beginning pilot).

Events were almost non-existent as well in those days under the previous publisher so no extra source of income.

But you know what? It didn't matter, as I was having fun in that mech. And every time I died I would be spectating, trying to learn from other people their moves and mistakes, while also analyzing where I myself had gone wrong that match.

I also spend a good deal of time in the training grounds (no Academy back then either), because trying to hit things with sweeping lasers while going at speed was not at all easy.
At first it was a challenge even to properly hit those immobile mechs while running on flat ground perpendicular to them but as I got better I went to running up and over hills trying to make my shots.

That, coupled with just playing the game made me the owner of ~100 mechs earned with just C-bills in addition to any mechs I bought or won, and yes I did return to that Awesome and ended up doing great in the end.

I only consider myself an average player (below that when I'm playing impatiently, one of my faults when trying to play the game just to unwind from work and 'wanting to shoot sum robbits'), but I'm experienced and I'm still having fun.

[Rogue Jedi]

Like Snagadance I do not consier myself a great player and took a few tries to find "my" Mech.

for a bit of background read what is in the spoiler, otherwise just read the conclusion

Spoiler

As a Legendary Founder I joined the game pretty early (2012, still in closed beta) and started with an Atlas, Hunchback, Catapult ^{(all of which I had loved in previous games)} and a Jenner, as any veteran of the MW3 and MW4 single player campaigns knows you only play a Light Mech until you can get something heavier, so I totaly discounted the Jenner, I first tried the Atlas and was getting demolished so tried the Hunchback, I did not realy enjoy it, tried the Catapult, again had trouble so by then a brand new Mech was available, the Cicada, I tried it and fell in love.
after doing pretty well in the Cicada I tried the Jenner those 2 became my go to Mechs for more than a year ^{(eventuraly replaced by Firestarter, then Spider, today my go-to Mechs are, in order or preferance Viper Medusa, Warhammer Black Widow, Spiders except Ananzi, Griffin 3M, Marauder 3R, Timber Wolf, Hunchback 4G and Jenner IIC)}.

at the end of the day no Mech is good for everyone, this is precisely why on the first page we asked for your preferances so we could try to find something that fit what you liked, unfortunately what seems good on paper does not always end up being good, I discovered I much prefered, and in most cases do better in, the small fast and agile Mechs ^{(except the Locust and Mist Lynx which I never could fall in love with)} to the powerful but slow Mechs

[Koniving]

GreyMatter51, on 31 July 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

One thing I have to say about this game is there are definately options when it comes to how you play/loadout your mech (I find myself spending more time looking at the mechs and playing with the loadouts than actually playing the game). That being said, I may have to kind of shelve the rifleman and pick up another mech (maybe one that is more forgiving to newer players) to get used to the game. Alternatively I am considering getting either a mech pack or at the very least a hero mech to help generate Cbills faster.

Again, I want to thank everyone that has posted. There has been quite a bit of good advice that I have tried to keep in mind as I play the game.

Something you could very cheaply get into would be the Hunchback. From stock the only requirement is double heatsinks and despite its size due to quirks giving it the robust tankability it has in Battletech tabletop it will tank far better than fully armored Rifleman can dream to.

A Hunchback in use before quirks (now take a peek at the stock quirks for any Hunchback and it's like O_O Dayamn).
4G played like a Clan mech.
Trolling people
Hunchback 4P Starts with building it.
Grid Iron 2017
4H 2017 (3rd part of a 3 video series; the second one has gameplay without skill tree. Don't bother with the first video).

(Hunchbacks are the most frequent suggestion since they are a jack of all trades, providing at least something for everyone; or reading Rogue's post almost everyone.)

Other recommendations include: Literally any 50-55 tonner (if energy-only is okay; go Crab; dirt cheap to roll).

Avoid 40 to 45 tons (for now), pretty expensive to start on them. 35 tonners do pretty good, but avoid the Panther as a newer player (I like it but it is lumberingly slow and it sounds like slow and fragile isn't what you need). Don't go lower than 30 tons (super fragile).

Still gonna linger the Jagermech DD in front of you. If considering missiles, Catapult? Also consider Thunderbolt. Such tank before quirks. And after, yeah. Plus that was a twin AC/5 6 ML build, standard engine with twin AMS (though not nearly enough ammo considering the spam I was under).

Anyway, unfortunately I haven't had a chance to play today, so the videos will be tomorrow instead. Had a lot of success with the twin ER PPC + 4 LMG build for the Rifleman 3C. Not my preferred weapon groups but using a standard 260 is really limiting. Have taken out assault and light mechs using this combination.

Edited by Koniving, 01 August 2017 - 10:59 AM.

[GreyMatter51]

I think I will hang with heavy Mechs for a bit. I think the blend of firepower, speed, and armor will help me out. I did run the Hunchback IIC (trial) last night a little and it felt like I did better but it could have been the match I was in.

Not sure how I feel about missiles right now. The trial mechs that have them I have tried but didn't really like the LRMs. So I will probably stick with ballistics and energy weapons for now.