105 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Appogee, on 08 August 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

But it's not just "pay for early access". It's "pay to have a competitive advantage right up til the Mech eventually comes out for CBills".

And did you happen to notice that the CBill release dates on the new chassis have been pushed out to nine months? So that's nine months of "early access" where those of us willing to spend cash get a competitive advantage over others less fortunate.

And in the case of Hero Mechs, some of those highly advantageous torsii will never be available for CBills. They are only available if you buy the Hero for cash

That's the kind of inequity that drives players away, and kills F2P games.

I didn't realize there weren't competitive mechs other than pre-order mechs...

[SmokedJag]

CK16, on 08 August 2017 - 04:47 AM, said:

Oh here we go again.....
1.Not really pay to win if standard varriants are available for C-bills after initial release
2. Reinforcements are not selected by PGI using some magic formula to put them in such pack....anyone who can read and/or count csn see they us alphabetical and numeric order.
3. Only Heros can be put in the catagory IF it does something no other mech can currently in game. (This also counts if over quirked, aka old Oxide days...those tanky little buggers....)

MWO and PGI are actuality pretty good about not having Pay to win in this game....The fact they are willing to nerf Heros and premium mechs is a very good thing! Say compared to Wargaming and thier products of World of Tanks and Warships, where they will hardly ever buff or nerf premium vehicles....Hell sometimes they just remove the vehicle from the store but do not touch it's stats for a long time....

My P2W objection in the Civil War pack would be specific to the Deathstrike. On the MCII leaderboards, the requirement to be 75th for the Deathstrike is >2,600. The base variants (which will become available for Cbills) are all ~ 2,000; reinforcements are less. And that's just compared to the other MCIIs, which everyone concurs are strong 'Mechs. They all have the firepower of a Dire Whale on a faster, leaner chassis with better mounts.

Edited by SmokedJag, 08 August 2017 - 07:35 AM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Paywall mechs are banned from tournaments, so at least you can't say you are the best using pay to win....

[Luminis]

Mole, on 08 August 2017 - 06:25 AM, said:

I swear there's a portion of the population out there just slavering at the mouth to apply the "P2W" tag on just about anything like the people who run this game shouldn't be allowed to make money.

Part of the issue, I think, is how people evaluate 'Mechs.

Guy gets killed by a 'Mech, assumes it's OP, buys it, dies in it, realises it's not that OP and that's the end of it.
Guy gets killed by a 'Mech, assumes it's OP, can't buy it, claims P2W.

Appogee, on 08 August 2017 - 07:01 AM, said:

When a Hero Mech is released that contains hardpoints which make it more competitive than variants which aren't available for anything other than hard cash ... that is pay to win.

The other variants of the chassis are a terrible yard stick. So what if the hero Ice Ferret if the best Ice Ferret if you can still bring half a dozen Mediums that are available for C-Bills and outperform the hero Ice Ferret?

The unique hero OmniPods are a legitimate concern but I'll have to check whether the best-in-class builds actually demand them before claiming P2W. I haven't looked at them too very closely, but the EBJ, ACH and HBR are the only high performers and at a glance, the new Pods don't seem to do much that'd potentially break them. We'll see, though.
Besides, I'm off the opinion that it's okay to have good 'Mechs that are C-Bill only. Not OP, but good. But those will quickly get labelled as OP and P2W as well, so this whole discussion is really, really annoying because of the highly subjective measurement of OP'ness.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Of course cheap bastages like myself who do not even use consumables are at a disadvantage...

[stealthraccoon]

Real money > pretend space money

[Mole]

I don't buy hero 'mechs because I don't like them and I have never felt disadvantaged against a hero 'mech to the point where I felt like it was P2W. And if you try to claim something that is going to be released for CBills in a couple months is P2W I am just going to laugh at you.

[Darky101]

Ok but look at th SHC hero with ECM Ct and balistic +laser arm... Its going to have a stealthy nice gausvomit build that no other SHC can do.
And besides that the ecm Ct makes the other left torso pods worth taking, it unlocks the mechs potential.

EDIT:Am I blind? Did they remove the ECM CT or was it always just the fridge with CT ECM?

Edited by Darky101, 08 August 2017 - 02:08 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

SmokedJag, on 08 August 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

They all have the firepower of a Dire Whale

Not quite. 8 UAC2 or 94 damage Gauss vomit at ~450 meters is unmatched in the firepower department. Yeah the Deathstrike cpild theoretically do that with HLLs but its under heatsinked and the duration isn't as good.

[ForceUser]

Darky101, on 08 August 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

Ok but look at th SHC hero with ECM Ct and balistic +laser arm... Its going to have a stealthy nice gausvomit build that no other SHC can do.

Is it going to be the best Medium? - No
Is it going to be the best Clan Medium? - No
Is it going to be the best 45t mech? - No
Is it going to be the best 45t Clan mech? - Maybe, see next question
Is it going to be the best Shadowcat? - Doubtful, Sidegrade at best but this is somewhat subjective. You'd need a month+ worth of metrics to be sure one way or the other.

[Cy Mitchell]

Appogee, on 08 August 2017 - 07:01 AM, said:

There is nothing open to interpretation here.

When a Hero Mech is released that contains hardpoints which make it more competitive than variants which aren't available for anything other than hard cash ... that is pay to win.

That is by definition P2W. The only way you can get those competitive advantages is by buying those torsi for cash.

That is such BS. If a hero version of a bad Mech comes out with slightly better hardpoints that does not make the Mech a winning Mech suddenly. It is just slightly less bad. The only winning you are going to do is if everyone else is playing that bad chassis without the Hero variant. As long as there are better chassis options that are free for everyone then there is no way said Hero is going to allow you to win.

Not only that but PGI is so generous with MC being handed out during events and various tournaments that even a Mech variant that will never go on sale for C-Bills is easily available to everyone for free with a adequate investment of playing time. Thus once again, no Pay to Win.

The definition of Pay to Win that you are espousing is the pet of the "Wallets Closed" crowd that want all the new shiny toys given to them for free. It has nothing to do with actually paying money for the ability to win more games.

[Luminis]

Darky101, on 08 August 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

Ok but look at th SHC hero with ECM Ct and balistic +laser arm... Its going to have a stealthy nice gausvomit build that no other SHC can do.
And besides that the ecm Ct makes the other left torso pods worth taking, it unlocks the mechs potential.

I don't understand your obsession with ECM. You make it sound like it's the best thing since sliced bread and I'm not even sure if it's worth the tonnage on my HBR because every opponent worth a damn doesn't use lock-on weapons and can shoot a 'Mech with or without a red box.

And if you want Gauss Vomit of a Clan Medium - Huntsman. You might have paid for it, but if it's not good enough to make you win (because it's still a Sad Cat that gets dunked by HMNs and HBK-IICs), it's not P2W

[L1f3H4ck]

Seems like you have no idea what actual pay to win looks like. Go playAce Online for a bit.

[Darky101]

Why does everybody try to underrate ECM?
I think that with the recent nerfs its right where it should be.
It does add to your stealthines and when your at a distace the enemy has to have good eyesight to spot you meaning that theres a delay in enemy retalition so you can poke and trade better.

[Appogee]

Ravenous Starling, on 08 August 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

Seems like you have no idea what actual pay to win looks like. Go playAce Online for a bit.

Sure, let's cite the worst case example, and then claim that anything not as extremely bad as that is somehow 'ok'...

Darky101, on 08 August 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

Why does everybody try to underrate ECM? I think that with the recent nerfs its right where it should be.
It does add to your stealthines and when your at a distace the enemy has to have good eyesight to spot you meaning that theres a delay in enemy retalition so you can poke and trade better.

I agree. I think it's still personally useful and equip it where it's an option. That also saves me 5 Skill Nodes that I would otherwise put into the first level of Radar Dep.

Edited by Appogee, 08 August 2017 - 08:25 AM.

[Appogee]

Rampage, on 08 August 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

If a hero version of a bad Mech comes out with slightly better hardpoints that does not make the Mech a winning Mech suddenly. It is just slightly less bad. The only winning you are going to do is if everyone else is playing that bad chassis without the Hero variant. As long as there are better chassis options that are free for everyone then there is no way said Hero is going to allow you to win.

What tosh. You are completely ignoring issues like tonnage limitations on drop decks and in groups.

For example, when I can take a KitFox with 3 AMS to protect my team from LRM spam in a FP match, plus get the benefit of the additional energy torsii that only the paywalled Purifier has, then that is P2W.

There is no other 35t Clan Mech that I could take which offers 3 AMS plus the ability to equip that many energy hardpoints to inflict extra damage. Only because I paid cash can I perform that role plus inflict extra damage that helps my team win.

And enough of the sophistry about 'wanting things free'. I already said: I bought heaps of Heroes and I do not want them to give me any competitive advantage. I want a level playing field where everyone gets to compete equally.

I'm fine for PGI to make money. But not by providing crutches for me and the wealthy on the battlefield. (I have suggested dozens of ways for them to get extra income over the years that don't require them to pursue P2W.)

Edited by Appogee, 08 August 2017 - 08:35 AM.

[Luminis]

Appogee, on 08 August 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

For example, when I can take a KitFox with 3 AMS to protect my team from LRM spam in a FP match, plus get the benefit of the additional energy torsii that only the paywalled Purifier has, then that is P2W.

You do realise that point hinges entirely on your assumption that a triple AMS Kitfox is the objectively best choice to fill 35 tons in a drop deck,don't you ?

[Appogee]

Luminis, on 08 August 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

this whole discussion is really, really annoying because of the highly subjective measurement of OP'ness.

And that's because P2W is a slippery slope that spans everything from 'slightly better' all the way through to 'OP'. So let's avoid the slippery slope altogether.

Luminis, on 08 August 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

You do realise that point hinges entirely on your assumption that a triple AMS Kitfox is the objectively best choice to fill 35 tons in a drop deck,don't you ?

In my unit - which I might add is a unit which has been quite a successful - that is exactly the choice that was made for Clan FP decks on some open maps in some modes.

So it's not hypothetical, and it's more than an assumption. It's a strategy which is being used.

Edited by Appogee, 08 August 2017 - 08:53 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Darky101, on 07 August 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

Wolfhound hero with ECM....pay to win....
Purifier.... pay to win............
Ebjag hero with left side balistic torso....strip arms and get 2 high mounted gaus rifles.... gonna be the best dual gauss mech in game.,.. P2W
Cougar! THE EFIN COUGAR! ECM and JJ Omnipods in the Reinforcement packs....PM2W
(pay more to win) JJs are the main thing of the Cougar..... just remember MW4 MErcs box cover...
Mad Cat MKII 4 balistic version in the reinforcement pack.

Standard packs are always straight up worse.....Ok Warhammer and Marauder packs where great because standard versions where unique compared to all the rest in the pack, and the heroes where not just straight up upgrades so they did not obsolete the other variants.

Enforcer GHILLIE only adds ECM, P2W.....
Yes the Kodiak had the best variant in the standard pack but I think that was just by mistake.....

Probably more examples but you get the point...
I feel this more and more and its that little thorn in my side that just keeps irittating me....

Edit based on comments: Granted the reinforcement packs are going to be available for cbills, and i forgot to mention that.
But still don't forget that they pushed out the pay to play window by so much that the Thanatos is still to TBD for Cbill release.

I also agree that it is much less pay to win then other MMO-s, and I also agree that they need somekind of income.

Ohh and putting the cougars ECM and JJ Omnipods in the reinforcement packs just makes me feel like the standard pack would be wasted dollars used to be able to pay for the one cougar version with JJs (JJ capapble Puma) that I would like to play.

So some heroes are getting standard variants with similar omnipod options:
https://mwomercs.com...clan-hero-mechs
Big thanks to FunkyT for for pointing that out and Zergling for posting the anouncement Link.
Cool!

Bogus P2W complaints as usual. I mean I understand that mechs like Grinner or Purifier give that individual chassis an advantage but can you please point out to me when and were we have 12 vs 12 Wolfhound or Kit Fox ONLY matches? I mean last I heard matches included a wide variety and mix of mechs, many of which are available for C-bills and quite a few of them are as good or better than the Grinner or Purifier or any of the other mechs you mention are P2W.

[Maker L106]

Wait... you mean this Shadow cat? With no ECM in its CT?
https://www.mwomercs...clan-heroes-two
Or did I miss a favorite?