105 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

I don't think MWO is a terrible P2W offender but to deny that some $ only mechs provide direct benefits or at the very least unique attributes that other similar mechs lack is being disingenuous.

I think P2W is a bad thing, but I also get that PGI is, well, seemingly desperate to make some cash and vaguely P2W...or maybe I should say P2dosomethingothermechscantdo...is about the only money maker over an above the mechs as a whole that they seem to have figured out how to sell. [God knows they can't seem to grasp micro transactions (they aint so micro) and they certainly don't seem to understand how to milk the nostalgia that this whole friggin property is based on (for craps sake give the loretards all the BT and MW, house, clan and unit decals and camo patterns and they will buy that shi7)]. So I cut em some slack and try not to get too nuts when they make the P2W stuff truly OP. Besides, do keep in mind the history around here. Free to win or pay to win, if something is winning, it will get nerfed and probably nerfed into the ground...until the next winning (free or pay) mech is offered for early adopter sale.

[PAYWALL]

Zergling, on 08 August 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:

It doesn't take a genius to work out that MGs aren't going to change from being handicapped by their short range and long face time requirement.

Just look at the Huginn with 2x SRM4 and 4x MG; that is 9.73 DPS without even considering the quirks it has, and that make doesn't dominate, or honestly even do all that good.





Laser builds aren't going to have the tonnage available for a pair of MG. If they make sacrifices to fit that pair of MG, then it will be a weaker laser build, and a worse build overall.





It doesn't look like P2W to me, because the ability gained from the 2B in the RT is negligible.

But doesn't the cheetah hero get 20% firerate quirks for mgs with that omnipod? THIS could change the whole build. 8 x Lmg + 1 x Heavy Medium + ECM would be possible i guess.

[SmokedJag]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 August 2017 - 07:50 AM, said:

Not quite. 8 UAC2 or 94 damage Gauss vomit at ~450 meters is unmatched in the firepower department. Yeah the Deathstrike cpild theoretically do that with HLLs but its under heatsinked and the duration isn't as good.

All Dire Whale builds that use double ballistic arms require the Ultraviolet. Which also isn't a Cbill 'Mech.

And the most extreme Gauss Vomit/Space Whale builds can exceed the Mad Cat II but even the base MCII can comfortably mount an alpha comparable to the Champion whale. That the Deathstrike is about 30% stronger (leaderboard score range) than that machine even after the PPC/Gauss nerf...

Edited by SmokedJag, 08 August 2017 - 09:50 AM.

[Archer Magnus]

Of course it's pay to win, it's also a free to play game. But if you want the best mech, for that advantage you have to pay real money.

BUT skill beats pay to win.

I could have the best pay to win mech and someone with more skill will still destroy me.

[PAYWALL]

Luminis, on 08 August 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

You do realise that point hinges entirely on your assumption that a triple AMS Kitfox is the objectively best choice to fill 35 tons in a drop deck,don't you ?

It can be a solid choice when playing on polar (for filling 30t).

[Ghogiel]

The power creep be creeping. Kraken/bane will be the clan version ANH still to come. insta buy if it comes with quirks.

[invernomuto]

Appogee, on 08 August 2017 - 03:51 AM, said:

P2Win destroys F2P games. It provides a competitive advantage/crutch on what should be a level playing field. Those who can't pay are disadvantaged and leave. Those who do pay - and who need that crutch - should hang their heads in shame.

Incidentally, I own more than 30 Hero and Special Mechs. I bought them for the CBills. I do not want any battlefield advantage from them.

I do not feel that having *a few* heroes ($ only) mechs that incidentally are not sub par means that the game is p2Win nor that we do not have a level playing field in MWO.

Edited by invernomuto, 08 August 2017 - 10:17 AM.

[Grus]

Please don't say the iceferrit will be pay to win... unless it gets armor added to it's arms... then I'd say maybe a little.

[Appogee]

invernomuto, on 08 August 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

I do not feel that having *a few* heroes ($ only) mechs that incidentally are not sub par means that the game is p2Win nor that we do not have a level playing field in MWO.

How many P2W OP Mechs would be ok?
4?
10?
30?
On what basis are you deciding how many is ok?

[Jay Leon Hart]

Grus, on 08 August 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

Please don't say the iceferrit will be pay to win... unless it gets armor added to it's arms... then I'd say maybe a little.

The IFR-P is coming with CT ECM too, so no worries there.

PAYWALL, on 08 August 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

But doesn't the cheetah hero get 20% firerate quirks for mgs with that omnipod? THIS could change the whole build. 8 x Lmg + 1 x Heavy Medium + ECM would be possible i guess.

I would be amazed if that isn't a set-of-8 quirk.

[Gas Guzzler]

SmokedJag, on 08 August 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

All Dire Whale builds that use double ballistic arms require the Ultraviolet. Which also isn't a Cbill 'Mech.

And the most extreme Gauss Vomit/Space Whale builds can exceed the Mad Cat II but even the base MCII can comfortably mount an alpha comparable to the Champion whale. That the Deathstrike is about 30% stronger (leaderboard score range) than that machine even after the PPC/Gauss nerf...

That is true about the UV. The champion whale isnt good. You want to use the Prime arms to mount dual gauss and 2 ERLL and 6 ERML for a 94 damage alpha with full vertical articulation. If you really wanted to go maximim Gauss vomit you could go with 2 HLLs and 6 ERML to get a 108 damage alpha at the cost of a DHS or 2 and less firepower in your arms with the vertical articulation (only 80 damage...shucks). Things to keep in mind...

PPC Gauss hasn't been a thing since the skill tree when it comes to assaults, they have been better with high alpha builds since. ERMLs also got a nice buff this patch with the extra range.

Granted, the good Deathstrike vomit builds will typically use an XL300, maybe an XL325, so they do have a bit more mobility than tbe Dire, but the Dire has it beat in the firepower department.

[MechaBattler]

How many of those mechs can do something that a mech out for C-bills can't do?

[Dee Eight]

Zergling, on 07 August 2017 - 11:48 PM, said:

ECM really isn't that big of a deal.

The only thing the ECM and JJ does for the Cougar-H is let you build a sniper mech and on many maps, get relatively close to mechs that would eat you up in a brawl. Cougars are fire support mechs in the lore, and that's how they're best built. They're slower adders with more tonnage available. I got to 11th on the leaderboard event with the H using ECM, 1 UAC/2 with 3.5 tons of ammo, 3 CERML, TC3, 1 extra DHS. 3 of my 10 top matches I broke into the 900 damage range with it. A couple more were in the 700 range. Over 39 matches I've totallted 13,298 damage so the average per match is 340.97. Go with dark colors, try not to silhouette yourself against the sky, and find high terrain that the enemy is less likely to look at because you lack the armor for serious return fire.

[invernomuto]

Appogee, on 08 August 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

How many P2W OP Mechs would be ok?
4?
10?
30?
On what basis are you deciding how many is ok?

They're not OP. They do not suck like many other hero mechs they sold.
If, every now and then, they made something worthwhile I am fine with it.
Come on, they have modified some of the upcoming Clan Heroes since they were accused that they were too strong. I am the first to criticize PGI because of lack of a direction for this game or the lack of contents, but I honestly cannot say this is a P2W game. Have you ever played a real p2w game? Here most of the strong variants for the best chassis are avaliable (or will be avaliable) for C-Bills. And there are so many mechs already avaliable so that you can do any sort of meta build you like with only C-Bills mechs.
Your miliage may vary, of course.

[Appogee]

invernomuto, on 08 August 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

Come on, they have modified some of the upcoming Clan Heroes since they were accused that they were too strong.

I agree this was commendable... and necessary.

invernomuto, on 08 August 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

Have you ever played a real p2w game?

Yes. And that's why I feel so strongly that MWO shouldn't go down that slippery slope.

Not even a bit.

[Zergling]

PAYWALL, on 08 August 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

But doesn't the cheetah hero get 20% firerate quirks for mgs with that omnipod? THIS could change the whole build. 8 x Lmg + 1 x Heavy Medium + ECM would be possible i guess.

There is practically no chance it will get that 20% firerate quirk with the omnipod; that will be an 8 set bonus.

I will be amazed if that quirk is for the omnipod, and will totally agree that it is P2W if that is the case, but I am highly doubtful it will be like that.

Dee Eight, on 08 August 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

The only thing the ECM and JJ does for the Cougar-H is let you build a sniper mech and on many maps, get relatively close to mechs that would eat you up in a brawl. Cougars are fire support mechs in the lore, and that's how they're best built. They're slower adders with more tonnage available. I got to 11th on the leaderboard event with the H using ECM, 1 UAC/2 with 3.5 tons of ammo, 3 CERML, TC3, 1 extra DHS. 3 of my 10 top matches I broke into the 900 damage range with it. A couple more were in the 700 range. Over 39 matches I've totallted 13,298 damage so the average per match is 340.97. Go with dark colors, try not to silhouette yourself against the sky, and find high terrain that the enemy is less likely to look at because you lack the armor for serious return fire.

Grats on the leaderboard placement Dee; I only made #61 with the Prime after 10 battles, although to be fair I was only playing to get the 'Like a Cougar!' personal challenge done.

The way I'd probably prefer to play the Cougar is with the -E variant high shoulder energy hardpoints and a pair of ER PPCs.
ECM probably wouldn't be that useful for me; I'd be firing from positions where I have lots of cover, so I'd rather take an extra heatsink.

Edited by Zergling, 08 August 2017 - 09:02 PM.

[Lupis Volk]

Appogee, on 08 August 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

I agree this was commendable... and necessary.

Necessary? Necessary! It was uneeded and unfounded and only bolstered a toxic subset of the community. The Gargoyle, Executioner, Ice Ferret and Shadow Cat were victims of an rather unfair nerf and rework. So no it wasn't necessary it was unnecessary!

P2W accusations = baddies being baddies.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 08 August 2017 - 11:37 PM.

[Dr Hobo]

I don't call it P2W I call it Pay to Optimize. I don't think MWo is P2W

[Lupis Volk]

Dr Hobo, on 08 August 2017 - 11:42 PM, said:

I don't call it P2W I call it Pay to Optimize. I don't think MWo is P2W

People argued that with the Gargoyle, Executioner, Ice Ferret and Shadow Cat and they still got nerfed/reworked for reasons. Heck the heroes that got reworked weren't even the best out of the bunch. They just happened to offer build diversity and that triggered said toxic IS element into crying and demanded them to be nerfed, which they promptly got.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 08 August 2017 - 11:53 PM.

[Appogee]

Lupis Volk, on 08 August 2017 - 11:36 PM, said:

P2W accusations = baddies being baddies.

LOL. Those who want their Hero Mechs to have a competitive advantage over free Mechs are the "baddies".

Lupis Volk, on 08 August 2017 - 11:50 PM, said:

They just happened to offer build diversity and that triggered said toxic IS element into crying and demanded them to be nerfed, which they promptly got.

If you want build diversity, throw away your Clanner crutches and play IS every now and then.

FFS: we can mix and match our Clan omnipods from multiple variants onto a single Mech - including Special variants with +30% CBills - but you want to whine about "build diversity"...?!

Edited by Appogee, 09 August 2017 - 12:02 AM.