209 replies to this topic

[AssaultPig]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 28 August 2017 - 10:45 AM.
griefing, replies removed

[Fuerchtenichts]

Teer Kerensky, on 24 August 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

The bar is too much influenced by who plays and how much. It can be some measure, when there is a lot of players playing, like during Tuk event. Even then it's not perfect. But on ordinary times skill differences between sides can have so much influence on which side is winning, that it's not a good measure.

IS mechs take a lot upgrades before they get good. IS mechs can be taken in FP with really poor loadouts. That means on average lower skilled players on IS side have worse mechs than Clan side. It may even have compound effects to encourage average IS players to seek into units or other groups to drop with, as right now it seems rather rude ride to drop solo on IS compared to solo Clan.

So true, in the end you will have to pay around the same amount of CBills for a competitive IS Mech as for a CLAN one. The difference is, it is hard for beginners of MWO to figure out the right Mech/Loadout combination. Its the strength and the weakness of IS. Experienced players will be able to create striking builds which are often hard to predict for the enemy before engaging them. The knowledge of your opponents Mechbuild is vital for your success. If you are not able to define the combat range yourself and use your strengths you have to look for every little detail to exploit your opponents weaknesses.

In my opinion it is easier to start your MWO career an CLAN side because tech is less complex there.

[Commander A9]

There will never be a matchmaker in FW. It is not coming. Installing one would undermine the very design of Faction Warfare in the first place. You don't get to pick your enemy-you don't have the right.

You'll get a rear-facing camera sooner than you get a matchmaker in Faction Warfare.

[MischiefSC]

Insanity09, on 26 August 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

If any team is getting roflstomped back to their spawn there is an obviously major power/skill differential.
Thus the child vs adult analogy, while hyperbole, is not without merit, though I can understand why it would offend some people's sensibilities. I did like the comment about the children needing help from other adults, that actually fits nicely into the analogy, thanks.

Perhaps a college sports team versus professional would be acceptable to people? Both sets of adults, but again, a clear power/skill advantage on the pro side. I would still expect the pros to completely destroy the college team.

I have not heard anyone say you should not play your best. I certainly didn't say that. I never said you should throw matches, nor did I read anybody else say or hint that.
However, there is a difference between playing your best, and playing in such a way that the opponents are injured or punished simply for playing. Sometimes that's called sportsmanship.

In every spawn-camp game I have seen the side killing the enemies in their spawn was winning so overwhelmingly that their victory could not be threatened or questioned (EVIL games excepted). Think about it.
The first wave is always organized on both sides (at least as much as a team is able), because each side has more than enough time to set up before the engagement starts. If in the first (or second) wave one team so totally owns the other that they can push all the way to the enemy spawn, essentially unopposed (or, not effectively opposed), the chances of the dominating team losing in the end is vanishingly small.
And yet, we are to believe that in such a case merely allowing an already mostly crushed team to leave their spawn before getting shot will somehow pose a threat? It sounds like there is some other motivation happening here, because that doesn't seem correct. Hmm.

One could even make the very strong case that by spawn-camping the opposing side, you are not playing your best, you are shooting fish in a barrel, an easy task by anyone's estimation. Hmm.

So, you are free to believe as you wish, as am I.
You are free to misinterpret what I type, I certainly can't stop you.
I will happily read what you type, and try to understand the motivations behind what you say, especially when your stated motivations and the behaviors they support don't quite match up.
I will also continue to advocate for a better play experience for everyone.

(for example, if you really want to play your best, then you need to be challenged. I'd bet cash money that a pro-football player does not play his best when called upon to be part of the family game at a reunion picnic. Why? Not a challenge. Does he play to lose, barring extreme circumstances? Probably not.)

You're making a strawman here. I don't think that's your intent but what you're talking about isn't what's happening.

Both teams start, on most maps, about 4k from each other in terms of actual distance traveled over terrain not as the crows fly.

If both groups meet about 2K from their respective spawns then at 80 KPH it's about 70 seconds to get from middle of the map to within 500m of the closest spawn - at best. Spawn camping doesn't happen because wave 1 of the winning team is damaged and wave 2 of the other team has time to group up and meet them, rolling them and getting back to mid map and beyond before winning team is even back to mid map. Spawn camping never happens.

This happens routinely for KCom - we play a reasonably aggressive group and we never even see their dropzone until, maybe, last wave and everyone is in lights and mediums. Often not even then.

When you see spawn camping what happens is one team moves up 1K or less, often less. So the winning aide matches 3k, gets in the fight and we are often already within shooting distance of the other spawn.

Even when we are not the other team on wave 2 just camps in their spawns walls. On some maps it's common for the other team to move *behind* their spawn on later waves.

Finally, why is their time worth more than mine? Why am I required to sit around and wait for them to decide to move up? Is there some distance I should be required to move off? How long do I have to wait before I can move in, or if the other team refuses to move up (which happens often) do I have to just sit there and let the timer run out? How about when the other team refuses to even open the gates when attacking us, elects and switches to lights before scattering and shutting down? That's a thing that happens too.

The reality is that teams that move up and fight don't get spawn camped. They also, universally, do better, get more kills against good teams and as such score better. Groups getting spawn camped played passive and then usually hid in spawn. I don't want to spend my match walking over the whole map. I don't want to have to go all the way across the map to shoot robots - however I'm playing to shoot robots and will go where the robots are to shoot them.

There is no opinion involved in the reality of what happens. Teams that get spawn camped didn't move forward. If they did I wouldn't get to their spawn. Obligating the winning team to waste time waiting to see if maybe, just maybe, this team isn't like every other team that refused to push up wave 1 and just maybe might do it wave 2.

That's just not realistic. Here's the absolute reality, summed up in quotes from all chat in a match the other day:

Someone on other team: don't suppose you guys will just let us win anyway?

Me: I promise you'll get my best effort first wave to last and I hope you'll do the same.

Someone salty on the other team: what a bunch of bull ****.

How about instead of trying to make extra rules designed to let people put in less effort but still feel like a winner we just all drop, play the match to the best of our ability and the one that does the best wins? Because there's no advantage anyone has here. There's no socioeconomic factor giving anyone a head start. Not like one group of players gets access to better mechs or training or anything. We all get the same stuff. All that's different is what effort we put in to win the match, both before and during the drop.

So just play your best, assume others will do the same, play the match, congratulate the other guy at the end and queue up again. If you're not winning as much as you want see what the guy beating you is doing and do that. Not like anyone has something nobody else does.

[Commander A9]

I was there for that one Mischief. That one pilot asked us to "take pity on them and let them win." I don't believe in giving my opposition anything less than my best. I will never curtail, hold back, or handicap myself.

Now I'll certainly offer you zellbrigen if circumstances permit, but it goes both ways. I've offered zellbrigen before, only to be lured into a trap by opposing forces. When that happens, the gloves are off.

There have also been times when opposing groups have remained inside their spawn and refused to push out (i.e., Alpine Peaks, Skirmish, western drop zones), so we move in to meet them and we engage them appropriately. They fold, we stay, we fight.

We've also had opposing players take one look at us, and immediately disconnect. Or they disconnect after they lose their first mech. Or if they're the last few alive, they run off to an obscure corner of the map, power down, and leave the game. And who's at fault for that: The team that drives so much fear and anxiety into an opposing force that said force quits the game before it even starts, or the opposing force pilot who hits Escape, then selects Quit Match?

What do you want us to do? Wait in the open field with no cover, no height advantage, and no aggressive posture at standoff range, waiting for you to come to us, while letting you LRM and snipe us out?

Edited by Commander A9, 27 August 2017 - 07:18 AM.

[naterist]

heres the problem. fw is designed so that teams play teams, anyone else is fodder.



in order for that system to grow, you need 12 guys to already be 1- into mwo, 2- to succeed at this point in the games lifecycle they need some fw vets willing to get them caught up to date, 3- they need to all be in a mindset that they are there to fight the best and all that entails, 4- they need to all enjoy fw enough to come back after a few games, and 5- they need enough variety of mechs and loadouts so they can optomize for different maps. if you believe the forums, you should also already be close to a master at playing this game as well.

and this all needs to be initiated in quickplay, because as the topic titles of the past have shown, solos in fw often dont stick around long enough to go through the above steps, and their the guys who wouldve gone through this since they clearly are the ones with the interest



on the opposite side of the population gain coin is the loss of population. in order for the useful population, in this case teams, to drop out or leave fw, all thats needed is for a handful to leave the group/game, and reduce the group to a size that cant put up a team to play fw competetively against 12 mans. that leaves that previous 12 man team as little better than pugs, if their only dropping 4-5 mans.



with the current system in place, its very easy to see how population will continue to decrease, as it is so much easier for a team to fall apart and for the community to lose a serious portion of its population, due to the decision of just a few! population is going to continue to decrease as things change and people get butthurt or nastalgic for the old stuff. the success of the mode is then largely dependant upon how quickly it can replenish those lost players with new players, which this mode cant, because it is such a ******* chore just to get into a position were you are on a competetive level with others. then once you do get into a position were you can fully appreciate and understand the mode, you realize there isnt much to it, which leads to people in that new team getting bored, leaving... etc. then the problem just exasperates itself.


and if you listened to the production update, they have no plans to really work on fixing that issue as of yet.

Edited by naterist, 27 August 2017 - 06:41 PM.

[Insanity09]

So sorry, no strawman construction here. I'm not misconstruing somebody else's argument, I'm making my own darn point about how severely beaten most folks who get spawncamped are.
Are you misinterpreting my argument?

Multiple times, giving and receiving (more of the latter, sigh),I have seen wave one plow through an opponent so hard they were barely scratched (12:0 or 12:1). The successful attacking force simply (and reasonably, I happily admit) pushed on towards the enemy spawn ( the attacker could be on defense in siege, could be on attack, and in any other mode, it's even less relevant). This first engagement already, effectively, takes place at mid map.

The victims, of course, were not killed in an instant, and thus do not all drop again at the same time, but in a staggered fashion against an already grouped enemy now much closer to their spawn. Drops take up to 30 seconds to happen, so if you are at the wrong point in the timing (typically, statistically, the drops will be spread out), you'll be spread out on respawn, both by time, up to minute and a half (2 drops of 30s each, total of 1min is common), and space, because there are typically 3 locations, one for each map (on some siege maps this isn't as much of an issue for the defender, because the drops are all on one large field).
The attacker, if I didn't make this clear, isn't simply standing around where that first fight was fought giving each other high fives, they continue to push forward, rolling on toward the enemy base/spawn.

So, we have a successful, organized enemy that already completely crushed a supposedly organized victim, all 12 of them, and over the course of the the next minute or so crossed the ground effectively all the way to the enemy spawn (as you point out, 70s is a typical time for that, so a minute of spread out drops easily allows that). Yes, they are a bit damaged, but they are still a cohesive unit.

Now, our sorry-behind victims are not simply staying in their spawn at this point, they are usually moving forward to some re-grouping point. And that's part of the trouble. They are not all moving, because not all of them have made it out of the drop ships yet. Heck, usually there is one or two that haven't even died yet (in some cases it isn't really clear why those guys are still alive or what they are doing, but that's irrelevant for this discussion, they aren't really in the main fight).
So, the main body of our victim team isn't all together, they are trickling in. That makes them easy meat for the organized enemy coming their way. If the victims are lucky, they will take a few more enemies with them. A spread out wave two goes the same way as wave one, and that fight can, and often does, take place right outside the spawn zone or on its way to it..

At this point, the victims are mostly on their third mechs, while the attacker has gotten a decent force (often heavies and assaults) all the way to their spawns, and again the victim drops are spread out in time and space, they aren't collected. Single and double drops are rapidly focused down if they are in the wrong drop zone, and the ones who try and help from adjacent areas are killed equally quickly. Even 4 enemy heavies can make mincemeat out of a mech in a handful of seconds. Organized, they can keep it up for a while.

NOW is when the pathetic victims tend to stay bottled up in their spawn. As the attacking force is reinforced, the price for peeking out gets more and more brutal. The choice is often to hide and die, or come out swinging and die, if a little faster (and more gloriously? certainly no better rewarded).
The attackers are probably mostly on their 2nd mechs, our victims on their 3rd or 4th. The main damage and push was all first wave.

The victims often DO push forward as much as they can, but following that first wave meeting at mid map, the small portions of the victims on their way forward just get trampled, and the attackers keep getting closer to the spawn the whole time.

Does it always happen that way? Of course not.

If KCom doesn't push the spawns early, and waits until the final wave of victims (4th mechs, mostly) I applaud their (your?) sportsmanship. 4th wave mop up is fair game, I'd say.
But too many times I have seen teams force a much weaker enemy back very, very early in a match. I personally have seen what I described numerous times (and no, I don't typically record matches, so no vid).
In one specific (rare) case, where I was on the team doing the push, our own team started to argue about pushing into their spawn. Half of us wanted to stay outside a distance away to let them regroup. Half did still push their spawn, but it was more than enough to keep the enemy totally fubar'd. And the rest of our scores suffered as a result, which I suspect is part of the issue (easy kills mean better score, people want to get in on that fast). Anyhow, the other point there is that is doesn't take a whole team to completely mess up an enemy by spawncamping.

As far as time spent, yours being valuable and all, you have the beginnings of a valid point... but just the beginnings. The fact is that in most of the camping situations I've seen, the main time factor was the delay between drops (spread out all over) and time to chase down stragglers. Relatively minor difference in letting them come to you versus the other way around (a couple minutes?), and the advantage of waiting is that you get to kill them all at once.

I will also reiterate, in caps, IF THE ENEMY IS JUST HIDING IN THEIR SPAWN, REFUSING TO COME OUT, YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO GO IN AFTER THEM. I agree with that part of the camper argument.
However, I will also repeat my question of earlier, why does the victim team stay bottled up like that?
Sometimes, yes, cowardice.
Not always, though. It seems that quite often the attackers leave no choice for the victims other than hiding. As soon as a victim mech shows itself outside the spawn it is shot and thrashed, practically insta-gibbed in some cases.
Honestly, if you've never noticed that pattern, I can only conclude you were not paying attention, I've seen it often enough. I will, however, grant that at times it is just a couple well placed snipers on the attacker team that do enough damage to force the victims to take cover. And where is the cover? Back behind the walls.

Spawncamping is a self-fulfilling prophecy in many cases. The victims of it feel they have no choice, and the attackers are, quite organically and without thinking about it in these terms, simply leaving the victims no other choice.
A little tactical restraint (don't push so far) on the attacker side is all it takes to prevent spawn-camping. You don't have to play less that your best. You certainly aren't just giving up.
You've annihilated their first string. Is their 2nd or 3rd actually going to be a threat?

[naterist]

Insanity09, on 27 August 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

well thought out analysis

no need to wait for the trolls, i have the rest of this conversation memorized at this point.


*parenthesis is said in whiney ***** voice, aka, what i imagine most of the naysayers in this thread sound like in real life

you shouldnt spawncamp, pgi should implement something to keep engagements out of spawn zones.
but then its not fair to us because were winning and we should spawn camp because its tactically viable, not my fault they suck

well lets think of a system were you you have a higher chance of facing a team at your skill level
but that defeats the point of factionplay, we cant have a matchmaker, muh slider! you dumb

how about a surrender system, so that matches that are already decided in the first 2 waves dont end up wasting the losing teams side, and they dont have to spend 20 minutes dying midair below the dropship, and waiting for the inevitable farming to end
but what about MY time, i waited almost a full ten minutes to play, I DESERVE to farm them and get maximum cbills, i feel personally slighted that ill have to reque to keep fighting. we cant have that!

.....*silence
how come im ghost dropping so much. wow, no one plays this mode, pgi should change something.

[Leggin Ho]

naterist, on 27 August 2017 - 08:01 PM, said:

no need to wait for the trolls, i have the rest of this conversation memorized at this point.


*parenthesis is said in whiney ***** voice, aka, what i imagine most of the naysayers in this thread sound like in real life

you shouldnt spawncamp, pgi should implement something to keep engagements out of spawn zones.
but then its not fair to us because were winning and we should spawn camp because its tactically viable, not my fault they suck

well lets think of a system were you you have a higher chance of facing a team at your skill level
but that defeats the point of factionplay, we cant have a matchmaker, muh slider! you dumb

how about a surrender system, so that matches that are already decided in the first 2 waves dont end up wasting the losing teams side, and they dont have to spend 20 minutes dying midair below the dropship, and waiting for the inevitable farming to end
but what about MY time, i waited almost a full ten minutes to play, I DESERVE to farm them and get maximum cbills, i feel personally slighted that ill have to reque to keep fighting. we cant have that!

.....*silence
how come im ghost dropping so much. wow, no one plays this mode, pgi should change something.

As far as a matchmaker goes, you do have one in QP, and it still mixes tiers in most drops, so no we don't need one in CW as it's been stated multiple times it will just increase the wait times we already have, if your not ready to drop and to lazy to read the warning, which most are then you learn in one of two ways, reading and preparing or dropping into a meat grinder, the choice is entirely each players.
One issue at least with your response about the time factor, are we killing them in spawn instantly or are we dragging it out over a 20 min time period, since I've seen folks complaining about spawn camping only from the folks hiding in spawn's side using both time factors?

Also I've agreed with some form of surrender system so long as the side surrendering gets negative scores for quitting mid match and the winning side still gets full damage scores spread out evenly from the point the surrendering team quits using whatever tonnage they have left to drop. There should never be a non negative or easy way to just quit a match where others (your teammate's and the other team) have set and waited to drop, spent the time to group up and then just have you run away because you don't want to play now.

[MischiefSC]

Insanity09, on 27 August 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

So sorry, no strawman construction here. I'm not misconstruing somebody else's argument, I'm making my own darn point about how severely beaten most folks who get spawncamped are.
Are you misinterpreting my argument?

Multiple times, giving and receiving (more of the latter, sigh),I have seen wave one plow through an opponent so hard they were barely scratched (12:0 or 12:1). The successful attacking force simply (and reasonably, I happily admit) pushed on towards the enemy spawn ( the attacker could be on defense in siege, could be on attack, and in any other mode, it's even less relevant). This first engagement already, effectively, takes place at mid map.

The victims, of course, were not killed in an instant, and thus do not all drop again at the same time, but in a staggered fashion against an already grouped enemy now much closer to their spawn. Drops take up to 30 seconds to happen, so if you are at the wrong point in the timing (typically, statistically, the drops will be spread out), you'll be spread out on respawn, both by time, up to minute and a half (2 drops of 30s each, total of 1min is common), and space, because there are typically 3 locations, one for each map (on some siege maps this isn't as much of an issue for the defender, because the drops are all on one large field).
The attacker, if I didn't make this clear, isn't simply standing around where that first fight was fought giving each other high fives, they continue to push forward, rolling on toward the enemy base/spawn.

So, we have a successful, organized enemy that already completely crushed a supposedly organized victim, all 12 of them, and over the course of the the next minute or so crossed the ground effectively all the way to the enemy spawn (as you point out, 70s is a typical time for that, so a minute of spread out drops easily allows that). Yes, they are a bit damaged, but they are still a cohesive unit.

Now, our sorry-behind victims are not simply staying in their spawn at this point, they are usually moving forward to some re-grouping point. And that's part of the trouble. They are not all moving, because not all of them have made it out of the drop ships yet. Heck, usually there is one or two that haven't even died yet (in some cases it isn't really clear why those guys are still alive or what they are doing, but that's irrelevant for this discussion, they aren't really in the main fight).
So, the main body of our victim team isn't all together, they are trickling in. That makes them easy meat for the organized enemy coming their way. If the victims are lucky, they will take a few more enemies with them. A spread out wave two goes the same way as wave one, and that fight can, and often does, take place right outside the spawn zone or on its way to it..

At this point, the victims are mostly on their third mechs, while the attacker has gotten a decent force (often heavies and assaults) all the way to their spawns, and again the victim drops are spread out in time and space, they aren't collected. Single and double drops are rapidly focused down if they are in the wrong drop zone, and the ones who try and help from adjacent areas are killed equally quickly. Even 4 enemy heavies can make mincemeat out of a mech in a handful of seconds. Organized, they can keep it up for a while.

NOW is when the pathetic victims tend to stay bottled up in their spawn. As the attacking force is reinforced, the price for peeking out gets more and more brutal. The choice is often to hide and die, or come out swinging and die, if a little faster (and more gloriously? certainly no better rewarded).
The attackers are probably mostly on their 2nd mechs, our victims on their 3rd or 4th. The main damage and push was all first wave.

The victims often DO push forward as much as they can, but following that first wave meeting at mid map, the small portions of the victims on their way forward just get trampled, and the attackers keep getting closer to the spawn the whole time.

Does it always happen that way? Of course not.

If KCom doesn't push the spawns early, and waits until the final wave of victims (4th mechs, mostly) I applaud their (your?) sportsmanship. 4th wave mop up is fair game, I'd say.
But too many times I have seen teams force a much weaker enemy back very, very early in a match. I personally have seen what I described numerous times (and no, I don't typically record matches, so no vid).
In one specific (rare) case, where I was on the team doing the push, our own team started to argue about pushing into their spawn. Half of us wanted to stay outside a distance away to let them regroup. Half did still push their spawn, but it was more than enough to keep the enemy totally fubar'd. And the rest of our scores suffered as a result, which I suspect is part of the issue (easy kills mean better score, people want to get in on that fast). Anyhow, the other point there is that is doesn't take a whole team to completely mess up an enemy by spawncamping.

As far as time spent, yours being valuable and all, you have the beginnings of a valid point... but just the beginnings. The fact is that in most of the camping situations I've seen, the main time factor was the delay between drops (spread out all over) and time to chase down stragglers. Relatively minor difference in letting them come to you versus the other way around (a couple minutes?), and the advantage of waiting is that you get to kill them all at once.

I will also reiterate, in caps, IF THE ENEMY IS JUST HIDING IN THEIR SPAWN, REFUSING TO COME OUT, YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO GO IN AFTER THEM. I agree with that part of the camper argument.
However, I will also repeat my question of earlier, why does the victim team stay bottled up like that?
Sometimes, yes, cowardice.
Not always, though. It seems that quite often the attackers leave no choice for the victims other than hiding. As soon as a victim mech shows itself outside the spawn it is shot and thrashed, practically insta-gibbed in some cases.
Honestly, if you've never noticed that pattern, I can only conclude you were not paying attention, I've seen it often enough. I will, however, grant that at times it is just a couple well placed snipers on the attacker team that do enough damage to force the victims to take cover. And where is the cover? Back behind the walls.

Spawncamping is a self-fulfilling prophecy in many cases. The victims of it feel they have no choice, and the attackers are, quite organically and without thinking about it in these terms, simply leaving the victims no other choice.
A little tactical restraint (don't push so far) on the attacker side is all it takes to prevent spawn-camping. You don't have to play less that your best. You certainly aren't just giving up.
You've annihilated their first string. Is their 2nd or 3rd actually going to be a threat?

It's not about threat, it's about 'now what'. The only time the 'tactical restraint' you're talking about is relevant is against the people who hide in spawn.

The other day we were dropping on Sulfurous, defense. Other team is mostly pugs but a couple of mixed 3mans. They all come left gate, they wait for the radar sweep and then switch mid gate. It was well done and caught us mostly out of position; we had to hustle just to be in front of the gun before the mid gate was down. They pushed in, I recall one guy in an Anni actually got all the way onto the gun platform and he was laying it down like a BOSS. If his team had the balls to have followed him all the way in that would have been a serious, serious fight - they would have split us with the gun, half on one side half on the other and they, potentially, could have won the first wave. I don't feel it's unfair to say that KCom doesn't run the risk of losing the first wave very often. However most of his team stalled half way into the push and we beat them.

We immediately pushed out. Immediately. We were all moving at the gate before the last enemy died. However the enemy was also fast out of the dropship and they finished off our damaged mechs in the canyon stretch before we were even to the corner that goes to their dropships.

So the 2nd and 3rd wave played out, they switched back to the left gate, pushed pretty far in and then we pushed out. Like we always do. The 4th wave we did kill I think about half their 4th wave in the dropship, though they managed to destroy most the turrets and damage some gens.

That? That's how everyone but the most timid of teams plays out. We usually shoot wave 4 in the dropship. Often against enemy teams who fought well we absolutely do pause before pushing the DZ - to group up, because we know they won't be hiding in the DZ.

Those guys and those matches don't come here and complain though. The situation you're describing? It already happens. We physically can't get to your DZ fast enough if you've pushed out reasonably far on wave 1. We're a good minute + from your DZ when wave 1 ends.

The people who are complaining are the ones who pushed out 500 or 1k from their DZ slowly, cautiously, then camped so when they got rolled we were at their DZ. Most the time, when that happens? We push 1 DZ and the players in the other 2 DZs don't push toward us. They gather at one of the other DZs and wait for us. So 1 whole DZ gets camped out on wave 1. We're mostly in mechs that are at 50% or less, often 20 or 30%. Like 1 or 2 shots to kills us. They could easily, easily overwhelm us and any halfway decent team does - our goal is just to try and get a little damage in against their wave 2 so that when our wave 2 and their wave 2 hit their wave 2 has taken a hit or two.

However when the other team is super timid wave 1 and then just hides from us on wave 2 it turns into a snowball. We are in mechs that are 1 hit from death for often 5 or even 10 minutes, focusing down 1 mech at a time that either trickles in or is abandoned by his teammates, hiding in 100% health mechs far away.

Those guys are the ones who come here and complain.

We drop a lot of matches. A lot. We win 98% of them. About half of those we lose 2 waves or more of mechs and we shoot the enemy in their DZ maybe 1 or 2 longrange shots on wave 3, we kill a few of their dropping mechs on wave 4.

About 15% of what's left are in a range between that and absolute slaughters.

About another 15% are hard fights or even losses. Either good teams or even good pugs - we had a close, close win on Terra Therma the other day, the other team drew us into a fight in the middle, left 6 mechs to die and the other 6 flanked and sprinted to cap us down. It was well laid out and a convincing 'retreat' of the 6 mechs. We thought it was the whole team and they broke (as pugs often do) and were just plowing on through while 6 of them had flanked earlier and were waiting for us to go by to rush our cap on Assault. We barely got a guy back in time to stall the cap. Was a good match, all 4 waves, they were tricky and fought hard. Was a pug team too - just they clearly had someone calling and they put a good effort in.

The last 20% are slaughters. That's what you hear about here. There's days where it's a bit higher but usually it's about 1 in 5. They don't push up, they are super timid and salty in chat (which we ignore). That's what comes to the forums to complain how unfair it is. The other 80% of matches? Those guys usually know what happened. They fought, to some degree, they played well and they lost, they hopefully learned a bit and they moved on to the next match.

There's days on events where the slaughters are close to 50%. No question. Lots of pugs playing like it's pug queue. However, again, you've actually got it pretty close on - what you're talking about is what happens. The timid ones get farmed wave 1, the ones who are not timid usually lose some mechs in the DZ on wave 4. I wouldn't call it 'farmed' though because it's often only a few of us alive who've made it through wave 3 to catch their last few lights dropping for wave 4.

It's just the bads who say it's never their fault and how unfair it all is instead of looking at what happened and why who come here to complain.

Which is okay. I still hope they play and have fun. However I absolutely do NOT accept that it's my responsibility to take the emotional temperature of everyone I play against in this game and change how I play, what I do and devalue my own time in the hopes that maybe I'll make them feel a little better - because it probably wouldn't help anyway. If they were the sort to learn from mistakes they wouldn't be the ones doing the complaining.

[naterist]

Leggin Ho, on 28 August 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

As far as a matchmaker goes, you do have one in QP, and it still mixes tiers in most drops, so no we don't need one in CW as it's been stated multiple times it will just increase the wait times we already have, if your not ready to drop and to lazy to read the warning, which most are then you learn in one of two ways, reading and preparing or dropping into a meat grinder, the choice is entirely each players.
One issue at least with your response about the time factor, are we killing them in spawn instantly or are we dragging it out over a 20 min time period, since I've seen folks complaining about spawn camping only from the folks hiding in spawn's side using both time factors?

Also I've agreed with some form of surrender system so long as the side surrendering gets negative scores for quitting mid match and the winning side still gets full damage scores spread out evenly from the point the surrendering team quits using whatever tonnage they have left to drop. There should never be a non negative or easy way to just quit a match where others (your teammate's and the other team) have set and waited to drop, spent the time to group up and then just have you run away because you don't want to play now.

Obviously any surrender system would be a group determined system, or even require some kind of unique cicumstance in the match to trigger it. Dont tell pgi to do it on a person by person basis, we already have that. Its called rage quitting and requeing with a different deck.


Easymode for pgi to end spawncamping, if someone has LOS on the interior of a dz's walls, the dropship doesnt go there. If you have LOS on all 3 spawns interiors, then no one can drop and the match is called, shouldnt be too hard since theve already decided to work on changing the drop mechanic (last winter at the last roundtable that is...). For immersion purposes, add a voice notifier to indicate a dz is "too hot" or something similar for a droppoff. Then you could even remove the dropships weapons as those are only annoying, and relatively useless.

[naterist]

And im laughing at mischiefs analysis. Which is it, do they ball up and hit you the second wave or runn in 1 by 1 for easy "1-shot" kills? Your short novel left me somewhat confused.

Sarcasm aside, you gotta remember, most second wave mechs are your second biggest, and for IS that means your going about 70-75 kph. That plus the respawn time and the distance between most dropzones means those mechs arent even capable of reaching their allied dz before your taking down lances at a time. You know rsor doesnt just sit there and take it when we fight you, and we still run into that problem. Whatre we doing wrong, taking heavies second wave? Should we switch all our mechs to smaller heavies or mediums so we can outrun a clan assault mech?

Edited by naterist, 28 August 2017 - 12:24 PM.

[Commander A9]

Insanity09, on 27 August 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

A little tactical restraint (don't push so far) on the attacker side is all it takes to prevent spawn-camping. You don't have to play less that your best. You certainly aren't just giving up.
You've annihilated their first string. Is their 2nd or 3rd actually going to be a threat?

Stop. Right there.

You're asking me to retract my fangs and curtail my aggression...which is the principle cornerstone of my gameplay.

My answer is an emphatic and repeated 100 times "no!"

If my enemy is on the field, they are a threat. They will be dealt with.

Edited by Commander A9, 28 August 2017 - 02:01 PM.

[Wing 0]

Very shameful of several pilots now these days. We mercs don't like the idea of a "surrender" system. we got bonuses to earn killing your mechs and if your too scared to fight, don't play. Once again, Epic Fail.

Commander A9, on 27 August 2017 - 04:41 AM, said:

There will never be a matchmaker in FW. It is not coming. Installing one would undermine the very design of Faction Warfare in the first place. You don't get to pick your enemy-you don't have the right.

You'll get a rear-facing camera sooner than you get a matchmaker in Faction Warfare.

Some idiots never learn right? Matchmaker will never be used in Faction play. I told one idiot about him proposing about how to get a matchmaker working for FP and he failed. Like I said. I will know right off the bat if it will work or not.

Edited by Wing 0, 28 August 2017 - 02:34 PM.

[Pat Kell]

Insanity09, on 27 August 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

So sorry, no strawman construction here. I'm not misconstruing somebody else's argument, I'm making my own darn point about how severely beaten most folks who get spawncamped are.
Are you misinterpreting my argument?

Multiple times, giving and receiving (more of the latter, sigh),I have seen wave one plow through an opponent so hard they were barely scratched (12:0 or 12:1). The successful attacking force simply (and reasonably, I happily admit) pushed on towards the enemy spawn ( the attacker could be on defense in siege, could be on attack, and in any other mode, it's even less relevant). This first engagement already, effectively, takes place at mid map.

The victims, of course, were not killed in an instant, and thus do not all drop again at the same time, but in a staggered fashion against an already grouped enemy now much closer to their spawn. Drops take up to 30 seconds to happen, so if you are at the wrong point in the timing (typically, statistically, the drops will be spread out), you'll be spread out on respawn, both by time, up to minute and a half (2 drops of 30s each, total of 1min is common), and space, because there are typically 3 locations, one for each map (on some siege maps this isn't as much of an issue for the defender, because the drops are all on one large field).
The attacker, if I didn't make this clear, isn't simply standing around where that first fight was fought giving each other high fives, they continue to push forward, rolling on toward the enemy base/spawn.

So, we have a successful, organized enemy that already completely crushed a supposedly organized victim, all 12 of them, and over the course of the the next minute or so crossed the ground effectively all the way to the enemy spawn (as you point out, 70s is a typical time for that, so a minute of spread out drops easily allows that). Yes, they are a bit damaged, but they are still a cohesive unit.

Now, our sorry-behind victims are not simply staying in their spawn at this point, they are usually moving forward to some re-grouping point. And that's part of the trouble. They are not all moving, because not all of them have made it out of the drop ships yet. Heck, usually there is one or two that haven't even died yet (in some cases it isn't really clear why those guys are still alive or what they are doing, but that's irrelevant for this discussion, they aren't really in the main fight).
So, the main body of our victim team isn't all together, they are trickling in. That makes them easy meat for the organized enemy coming their way. If the victims are lucky, they will take a few more enemies with them. A spread out wave two goes the same way as wave one, and that fight can, and often does, take place right outside the spawn zone or on its way to it..

At this point, the victims are mostly on their third mechs, while the attacker has gotten a decent force (often heavies and assaults) all the way to their spawns, and again the victim drops are spread out in time and space, they aren't collected. Single and double drops are rapidly focused down if they are in the wrong drop zone, and the ones who try and help from adjacent areas are killed equally quickly. Even 4 enemy heavies can make mincemeat out of a mech in a handful of seconds. Organized, they can keep it up for a while.

NOW is when the pathetic victims tend to stay bottled up in their spawn. As the attacking force is reinforced, the price for peeking out gets more and more brutal. The choice is often to hide and die, or come out swinging and die, if a little faster (and more gloriously? certainly no better rewarded).
The attackers are probably mostly on their 2nd mechs, our victims on their 3rd or 4th. The main damage and push was all first wave.

The victims often DO push forward as much as they can, but following that first wave meeting at mid map, the small portions of the victims on their way forward just get trampled, and the attackers keep getting closer to the spawn the whole time.

Does it always happen that way? Of course not.

If KCom doesn't push the spawns early, and waits until the final wave of victims (4th mechs, mostly) I applaud their (your?) sportsmanship. 4th wave mop up is fair game, I'd say.
But too many times I have seen teams force a much weaker enemy back very, very early in a match. I personally have seen what I described numerous times (and no, I don't typically record matches, so no vid).
In one specific (rare) case, where I was on the team doing the push, our own team started to argue about pushing into their spawn. Half of us wanted to stay outside a distance away to let them regroup. Half did still push their spawn, but it was more than enough to keep the enemy totally fubar'd. And the rest of our scores suffered as a result, which I suspect is part of the issue (easy kills mean better score, people want to get in on that fast). Anyhow, the other point there is that is doesn't take a whole team to completely mess up an enemy by spawncamping.

As far as time spent, yours being valuable and all, you have the beginnings of a valid point... but just the beginnings. The fact is that in most of the camping situations I've seen, the main time factor was the delay between drops (spread out all over) and time to chase down stragglers. Relatively minor difference in letting them come to you versus the other way around (a couple minutes?), and the advantage of waiting is that you get to kill them all at once.

I will also reiterate, in caps, IF THE ENEMY IS JUST HIDING IN THEIR SPAWN, REFUSING TO COME OUT, YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO GO IN AFTER THEM. I agree with that part of the camper argument.
However, I will also repeat my question of earlier, why does the victim team stay bottled up like that?
Sometimes, yes, cowardice.
Not always, though. It seems that quite often the attackers leave no choice for the victims other than hiding. As soon as a victim mech shows itself outside the spawn it is shot and thrashed, practically insta-gibbed in some cases.
Honestly, if you've never noticed that pattern, I can only conclude you were not paying attention, I've seen it often enough. I will, however, grant that at times it is just a couple well placed snipers on the attacker team that do enough damage to force the victims to take cover. And where is the cover? Back behind the walls.

Spawncamping is a self-fulfilling prophecy in many cases. The victims of it feel they have no choice, and the attackers are, quite organically and without thinking about it in these terms, simply leaving the victims no other choice.
A little tactical restraint (don't push so far) on the attacker side is all it takes to prevent spawn-camping. You don't have to play less that your best. You certainly aren't just giving up.
You've annihilated their first string. Is their 2nd or 3rd actually going to be a threat?

Thank you for the well thought out and lengthy post but sadly, I must decline to follow it. I have stated many times in other threads why we play the way we do and I have no intention of changing that playstyle. I wish you luck in your future drops.

[naterist]

Commander A9, on 28 August 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

Stop. Right there.

You're asking me to retract my fangs and curtail my aggression...which is the principle cornerstone of my gameplay.

My answer is an emphatic and repeated 100 times "no!"

If my enemy is on the field, they are a threat. They will be dealt with.

That is a fine awnser from both yourself, and mr kell, and it has earned my respect. If you ever ask again why you ghost drop when there isnt an event, i shall draw your attantion back to this topic. And recall to you that your W/L ratio is more important to you, then the fate of this mode.

and just to be totally clear for the ones who correctly read this as a sarcastic slam on units that unapolegetically stomp as much as they can. no one reasonable is here to say your wrong for doing it. its doable so its fair right? but you are incorrect when you fail to acknowledge its a problem, and when people are trying to suggest ways to fix that problem and you try to pretend like theyre in the wrong for trying to make the game a better experience, thats when what you are doing is morally repulsive, and its also why no one gives a **** that YOU complain about something, like upsurges in ghost drops and the like.

Edited by naterist, 28 August 2017 - 03:42 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

naterist, on 28 August 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

That is a fine awnser from both yourself, and mr kell, and it has earned my respect. If you ever ask again why you ghost drop when there isnt an event, i shall draw your attantion back to this topic. And recall to you that your W/L ratio is more important to you, then the fate of this mode.

Or you could put the effort in and actually 'git gud' and then take it to them. Oh wait, trophies for participation generation.

Edit, just to add, you had to be the one person to like the post at the top of the page, says volumes about yourself right there Naterist.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 28 August 2017 - 04:02 PM.

[MischiefSC]

naterist, on 28 August 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

And im laughing at mischiefs analysis. Which is it, do they ball up and hit you the second wave or runn in 1 by 1 for easy "1-shot" kills? Your short novel left me somewhat confused.

Sarcasm aside, you gotta remember, most second wave mechs are your second biggest, and for IS that means your going about 70-75 kph. That plus the respawn time and the distance between most dropzones means those mechs arent even capable of reaching their allied dz before your taking down lances at a time. You know rsor doesnt just sit there and take it when we fight you, and we still run into that problem. Whatre we doing wrong, taking heavies second wave? Should we switch all our mechs to smaller heavies or mediums so we can outrun a clan assault mech?

We're usually pretty chewed at the end of the first wave. So we're 1, maybe 2 shots to kill. If the other team pushed out on wave 1 then their 2nd wave has plenty of time to group up before we get anywhere close to their DZ. Usually they push forward, roll the remains of our first wave. Often without a loss - however they're damaged when they get to our 2nd wave and we win that one, etc. etc. That's the real goal of pushing forward for good teams. You do your best to damage their next wave so it's 12 damaged enemy vs 12 fresh allies.

However what happens against timid players is we push forward and... they don't push out. So we all go to 1 DZ where now it's 12 mechs vs 4. Even damaged it turns into a slaughter. That's where the 12 v 1 is. Often one guy will come or you'll catch 1 guy dropping while the other 3 run out the back.

If the other two DZs worth of mechs had pushed toward us they would kill our mechs pretty handily. They don't though. They wait and sometimes watch while we go shoot their teammates.

The point is WE are the weak mechs at that point but they don't push on us. They don't exploit that. They wait, no idea what for, giving us time to get way more damage than we should out of our first wave.

That's where the snowball happens.

Edited to add -

Wave 1 both sides are probably going 60-70.

You should meet the enemy as far forward on wave 1 as possible.

This gives you over 60 seconds on almost every single map to group up. Most maps are close to 90 seconds.

Edited by MischiefSC, 28 August 2017 - 05:01 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Last 3 matches as a good example.

One was domination on River City. Other team pushed forward, we won the first wave. We were just about to one DZ when they all showed up from the other two. We fought near their DZ but not really in it. They pushed us out and finished us off and got back to the circle. That's pretty much the whole match. They probably lost 3 total mechs in their DZ and we won 48 to 26.

One was us attacking Hellebore. Other team met us before the gun, at one point one guy snuck out the gate and harassed our people dropping in later waves - even got one kill. They grouped up and pushed on us constantly. We killed their last guy just as he left the DZ. We won that 48 to 32.

The last match was skirmish on Frozen City. The other team moved barely 1 grid over to G7 and hid. We walked the whole map, fought them and were 600m from one of their DZs, overlooking it. We farmed them out of their DZs that whole match. We won 48 to 13.

If they had pushed out and ahead and fought us well away from the DZ it would have gone like the other 2. All 3 matches were against mostly pugs and some small groups. We were going to win all 3. In 2 of them however the other team pushed out to fight us and killed 2 or 3x as many of us and gave a vastly better fight.

That's really the gist of it.

Push forward wave 1. Far forward as you can. Very critically if you look like you're starting to get rolled, push harder to do max damage before you go down. If you fall back or run in wave 1 or 2 all you do is move us toward your DZ and decrease the odds that your team will be 12 mechs together to meet us.

Oh, and FFS, people, drop heaviest first. When we drop 12 assaults/heaves vs 12 mixed assaults, mediums and lights the game is all but over. We're going to destroy you and cripple your second wave and those big mechs you saved for later? They're going to be fighting 1 v 3 or 3 v 8 or the like because we will have obliterated your teammates you left to it.

A light rush on wave 1 is one thing. Mixed drop tonnage drops on anything but skirmish is just a recipe for failure.

[Insanity09]

I do thank you for acknowledging that the situation I described does actually happen. And it does happen more against PUGs, which tend to be the less experienced players.

The reward system, as I suggested in part of my book above, is another piece of the problem here.
The real rewards in a match come from kills/assists/damage/etc. Nobody is interested in sportsmanship or behavior that doesn't cruelly punish less experienced players if it means they get fewer kills overall.

Despite claims that people don't farm, I have seen numerous matches where one side could end it easily and does farm enemy mechs.
The attacker on siege that could readily destroy the gens and omega, the team that blew the other side away in domination and could sit in the circle, probably getting the count all the way down before the next wave showed up, etc.
I have been yelled at for trying to end games under those circumstances because I figured we'd already won and I wanted to move on to the next match quickly and efficiently (silly me).
Killing folks in such matches, especially if you're shooting them in the dropship &/or as they are dropping (can't move, twist, or fire when that's going on, I've tested it), that is exactly farming. You're just padding your score. And understandably, given the pride people take in their kill/death ratios and the like, and the reward system.

Which is why another change I've asked for repeatedly is a change to the reward system such that at the end of a match won by objectives, everybody get a bonus reward equal to some base value of xp/cbills/match score (I've suggested an assist) multiplied by the number of enemy mechs remaining alive. In an FW match, that could be quite a tidy sum for a team that finished it early.

As for punishing people for choosing it if there were a surrender option... in the name of all that is good and holy, why?! They have already suffered a staggering beat down, so severe that most (or all?) of them feel they have zero chance of winning. Forcing them to pay a price, in addition to that ignominy, or let themselves be joylessly (for them) ground into the dust is just mean.

Set it so that a team couldn't surrender unless at least half their mechs had been destroyed or some such, so people didn't just see a fearsome enemy unit and pack it in instantly. But let people acknowledge a superior foe and bow out with some dignity, in hopes of a better future match.