141 replies to this topic

[Thorn Hallis]

Imperius, on 21 August 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

Please come back to me when I think your opinion will matter. Hint... it never will.

-1/10

Why should I care if my opinion would matter to you?

[Imperius]

People wanting Solaris just want the game dead.

This doesn’t improve the many glaring problems that can only be fixed via an engine update.
Solaris will no bring in a bunch of new people let alone it definitely won’t keep them. The new user experience is worse than it ever was since the big skill tree revamp.

[Johnny Z]

Imperius, on 21 August 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

People wanting Solaris just want the game dead.

This doesn’t improve the many glaring problems that can only be fixed via an engine update.
Solaris will no bring in a bunch of new people let alone it definitely won’t keep them. The new user experience is worse than it ever was since the big skill tree revamp.

No, quite the opposite.

And off topic.

Edited by Johnny Z, 21 August 2017 - 11:07 AM.

[Imperius]

Johnny Z, on 21 August 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

No, quite the opposite.

And off topic.

Uhhhh it's on topic for sure.

No where did I see the great support on the forums for Russ to go ahead with this waste of time feature.

[JC Daxion]

Imperius, on 21 August 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

Well as I said when I came back from MechCon last year mwo is dead and mw5 is what I’m waiting for. PvP only games will always self destruct.

Hmm counter-strike started in 1999.. Man did that game implode!!!

Yes some do die.. But there is a pretty big list of pvp only games that have lasted more than 5-10 years.. should i make a short one for you?

On the flip side i can point to many online mainly pve games that didn't make it 5 years..

I can point to many FTP games that didn't make it 2..

But man for a dead game they sure have added a lot of features and updates over the last 8 months.

Edited by JC Daxion, 21 August 2017 - 11:41 AM.

[Imperius]

JC Daxion, on 21 August 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

Hmm counter-strike started in 1999.. Man did that game implode!!!

Yes some do die.. But there is a pretty big list of pvp only games that have lasted more than 5-10 years.. should i make a short one for you?

On the flip side i can point to many online mainly pve games that didn't make it 5 years..

I can point to many FTP games that didn't make it 2..

But man for a dead game they sure have added a lot of features and updates over the last 8 months.

The game is dead in the sense of I never want to play it and when I do I regret it every time. It’s so frustrating to see what potential the game had and where it ended up.

I still give them money for mw5... as for mwo rip. Ideally I’d rather have mw5 support packs. So much time wasted on CW and now this.

If they were committed to mwo they would be working on the infrastructure not adding another bucket. You don’t need Solaris to add bolt-ons and battlevalue.

The part that I’m mad about is Russ asked us to speak up if we wanted this. I didn’t see people speaking up. It’s coming anyway. So why bother asking in the first place.

[JC Daxion]

And here i am mad that i SWG had it's plug pulled, and that game is gone, my favorite game of all time, with City of heroes following the same fate an other great that i truly loved..

I would be mad if this one had the same fate though even though this game is third on my list of most played, it has a long way to go to catch the first.. But while i can play it, you can rest assured i will enjoy it as much as i can. Because i don't know how long it will last, and in this life i am not even guarantied that when Mech5 launched i will be on this lovely earth.. So I might as well make the best and enjoy the **** out of it while i can.


But honestly, I think the potential that you and many want, is a game that needed 50m to make these days. Some how i don't quite think the game made that much cash.. People wanted star citizen, and that game has pulled in 200m and is still years away.. Put things into perspective.


But be serious, the only thing people speak up on this forums about is to complain about how awful the players are, how they are stuck playing with them, and how they never listen to the wonderful ideas people seam to have.. and honestly when people do post ideas, or things they wanna see the vultures come out in droves about how they have no clue. Click through the last 10 pages.. Try to find one that isn't that.. It's pretty hard.

and yes that is a slight exaggeration, but really, there is not in the way of actual constructive posts.. even the ones that are, are filled with bitter folks bringing up the same things. then again, the community is more divided on most things than US politics.. how can you please anyone in that kind of environment? I mean they say new maps,, Both Moon and city are coming, and people can't even be positive about that.. 2 of the most requested maps i've ever seen.. Do you see a single thread even talking about them?

Edited by JC Daxion, 21 August 2017 - 12:21 PM.

[Ruar]

JC Daxion, on 21 August 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

And here i am mad that i SWG had it's plug pulled, and that game is gone, my favorite game of all time, with City of heroes following the same fate an other great that i truly loved..

I would be mad if this one had the same fate though even though this game is third on my list of most played, it has a long way to go to catch the first.. But while i can play it, you can rest assured i will enjoy it as much as i can. Because i don't know how long it will last, and in this life i am not even guarantied that when Mech5 launched i will be on this lovely earth.. So I might as well make the best and enjoy the **** out of it while i can.


But honestly, I think the potential that you and many want, is a game that needed 50m to make these days. Some how i don't quite think the game made that much cash.. People wanted star citizen, and that game has pulled in 200m and is still years away.. Put things into perspective.


But be serious, the only thing people speak up on this forums about is to complain about how awful the players are, how they are stuck playing with them, and how they never listen to the wonderful ideas people seam to have.. and honestly when people do post ideas, or things they wanna see the vultures come out in droves about how they have no clue. Click through the last 10 pages.. Try to find one that isn't that.. It's pretty hard

PGI is monumentally bad at communication. They don't seem to be able to ingest player opinion and they are unable to provide relevant feedback on the player opinions. Hell, they rarely even use their own forums and prefer third party resources to put out official communications. They don't even begin to harness the power of in-game polling, surveys, or advertising.

Is it any wonder the players feel a large amount of frustration when PGI makes announcements about future plans while the bulk of the plans have no relation to what the players actually discuss/want.

[Imperius]

JC Daxion, on 21 August 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

And here i am mad that i SWG had it's plug pulled, and that game is gone, my favorite game of all time, with City of heroes following the same fate an other great that i truly loved..

I would be mad if this one had the same fate though even though this game is third on my list of most played, it has a long way to go to catch the first.. But while i can play it, you can rest assured i will enjoy it as much as i can. Because i don't know how long it will last, and in this life i am not even guarantied that when Mech5 launched i will be on this lovely earth.. So I might as well make the best and enjoy the **** out of it while i can.


But honestly, I think the potential that you and many want, is a game that needed 50m to make these days. Some how i don't quite think the game made that much cash.. People wanted star citizen, and that game has pulled in 200m and is still years away.. Put things into perspective.


But be serious, the only thing people speak up on this forums about is to complain about how awful the players are, how they are stuck playing with them, and how they never listen to the wonderful ideas people seam to have.. and honestly when people do post ideas, or things they wanna see the vultures come out in droves about how they have no clue. Click through the last 10 pages.. Try to find one that isn't that.. It's pretty hard.

and yes that is a slight exaggeration, but really, there is not in the way of actual constructive posts.. even the ones that are, are filled with bitter folks bringing up the same things. then again, the community is more divided on most things than US politics.. how can you please anyone in that kind of environment? I mean they say new maps,, Both Moon and city are coming, and people can't even be positive about that.. 2 of the most requested maps i've ever seen.. Do you see a single thread even talking about them?

It’s not hard to update the engine and add ai with missions or even to fill in cw gaps. Yes I don’t like to play with the majority of this community. I still randomly get trash talked by people I don’t even know, but they got beef with me. Honestly if I could just handle the situation myself I’d be fine but nope I have to endure them talking trash knowing full well nothing will get done about it. However if I do deal with it in the manner I would see fit. I definitely would be banned. These forums hold proof of that.

Then you have the players who don’t meta to win. The users who throw matches on purpose. The new people who don’t have a clue or chance to hold their own because the new user experience is complete crap. The lore build players. The urbie players. The 50% w/l ratio matchmaker constantly stacking odds to keep you 50/50.

Yeah it’s not fun.

[JC Daxion]

Ruar, on 21 August 2017 - 12:21 PM, said:

PGI is monumentally bad at communication. They don't seem to be able to ingest player opinion and they are unable to provide relevant feedback on the player opinions. Hell, they rarely even use their own forums and prefer third party resources to put out official communications. They don't even begin to harness the power of in-game polling, surveys, or advertising.

Is it any wonder the players feel a large amount of frustration when PGI makes announcements about future plans while the bulk of the plans have no relation to what the players actually discuss/want.

There are as many ideas, and opinions about what people want as there are people on the forums. Just take the simple topic of 8v8 v 12 v12.. There isn't even a consensus on that. How exactly are you suppose to make decisions based on divided communities.

Companies should take some feedback for sure.. But they also need to have a vision and stick with that vision. But how many people actually visit the forums? 58 people logged in, and 87 guests.. out of how many players? maybe 25k+ per month on average playing? How many over the course of a year? 100k+? It's a fraction of a % of the player base.

personally i post ideas on many games over the years.. a few have taken hold, or made their way in. Most games take a little feed back about tweaks.. but the players are hardly the force behind development. Who should they listen to? the ones that play the most? the ones that post the most? the ones that play but never post, but play 100's of matches a month? the ones that never even play QP, and play in player run leagues? See where i am going with this? I read stuff all the time i totally disagree with.. and given how many people respond to some of the posts i have made over the years, maybe they don't agree with me.. I have read many posts that have basically... The game would be perfect if they would just change the weapon stats to X y and Z.. and 20 people love it.. and then the next post is someone saying that is the worst idea ever and 20 people like that one..

I think they should make the game they wanna make, and try to grow it, and maybe communicate a bit more why they are doing things, and give us some behind the scenes about why, and who is doing it.. I think we would be better off in the end.

there are many games i've loved over the years.. Sometimes i move on, sometimes i take a break, and sometimes games move into a version i don't like and others do.. i guess that is just life ya know?

[JC Daxion]

Imperius, on 21 August 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

It’s not hard to update the engine and add ai with missions or even to fill in cw gaps. Yes I don’t like to play with the majority of this community. I still randomly get trash talked by people I don’t even know, but they got beef with me. Honestly if I could just handle the situation myself I’d be fine but nope I have to endure them talking trash knowing full well nothing will get done about it. However if I do deal with it in the manner I would see fit. I definitely would be banned. These forums hold proof of that.

Then you have the players who don’t meta to win. The users who throw matches on purpose. The new people who don’t have a clue or chance to hold their own because the new user experience is complete crap. The lore build players. The urbie players. The 50% w/l ratio matchmaker constantly stacking odds to keep you 50/50.

Yeah it’s not fun.

well i disagree with the first part.. getting good AI is not an easy task. And mech 5, is coming, and who knows what the future will hold for that aspect.

But the second i can agree with, but it is the same problem with all pvp games. I have never had one that is easy to play for a new player. But balance is one thing that is very hard with this game with meta and such. One reason why i've always thought there should be sized hard points. I think that combined with the engine desync it would help a lot with the OP meta builds.

as for the lore and stock build folks.. I really think that stuff is more for the private matches. The problem is the game has tools to make things challenging for folks, and to play against other good players, but to many just like to pug stomp, or join QP and stomp too. Then the other folks that do that then complain about how bad players are, but keep doing the same thing.

There is no magic solution.. even games with 10x higher populations get there butts handed to them. Just go play Starcraft and see how easy that is for a new player, and that game is about as balanced as you can get.

[Ruar]

JC Daxion, on 21 August 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

There are as many ideas, and opinions about what people want as there are people on the forums. Just take the simple topic of 8v8 v 12 v12.. There isn't even a consensus on that. How exactly are you suppose to make decisions based on divided communities.

Companies should take some feedback for sure.. But they also need to have a vision and stick with that vision. But how many people actually visit the forums? 58 people logged in, and 87 guests.. out of how many players? maybe 25k+ per month on average playing? How many over the course of a year? 100k+? It's a fraction of a % of the player base.

personally i post ideas on many games over the years.. a few have taken hold, or made their way in. Most games take a little feed back about tweaks.. but the players are hardly the force behind development. Who should they listen to? the ones that play the most? the ones that post the most? the ones that play but never post, but play 100's of matches a month? the ones that never even play QP, and play in player run leagues? See where i am going with this? I read stuff all the time i totally disagree with.. and given how many people respond to some of the posts i have made over the years, maybe they don't agree with me.. I have read many posts that have basically... The game would be perfect if they would just change the weapon stats to X y and Z.. and 20 people love it.. and then the next post is someone saying that is the worst idea ever and 20 people like that one..

I think they should make the game they wanna make, and try to grow it, and maybe communicate a bit more why they are doing things, and give us some behind the scenes about why, and who is doing it.. I think we would be better off in the end.

there are many games i've loved over the years.. Sometimes i move on, sometimes i take a break, and sometimes games move into a version i don't like and others do.. i guess that is just life ya know?

Simple answer is in game polls and surveys. I agree with you the forums are not a great place to get a consensus of what the players want. Where I disagree is that if the forums are all you have because you make no effort to do anything else, then you should listen to the forums.

Agreed it seems the forums are pretty well split on 8v8. However there are plenty of topics where there was a consensus that was ignored. I say PGI doesn't listen to the players because make decisions that run counter to an idea the bulk of the forum users are rallying around.

[Imperius]

Yes the game requires many options and yes not all of them will be liked or accepted. One glaring issue is after 4-5 years there still is no PVE option. From a game that built its fan base via PVE. This game originally started out as a money grab to recover from the trailer lawsuit. Pretty much a last ditch effort. If successful it was supposed to grow and add PVE. Yet that will never seem to come and with mw5 on the way it's not going to come. Which is fine mw5 will not have pvp. There is no reason however not to pair the games and update the engine. PVE and pvp require separate balance and rules to both be fun. Most PVE orented games play to peoples god complex. Ideally I'd rather play mw5 with my friend like I have halo all these years but whatever.

Solaris should come but only after you have the proper tools that this engine is not capable of but comes standard in Unreal.

Edited by Imperius, 21 August 2017 - 01:05 PM.

[kuma8877]

Imperius, on 21 August 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

It’s not hard to update the engine and add ai with missions or even to fill in cw gaps. Yes I don’t like to play with the majority of this community. I still randomly get trash talked by people I don’t even know, but they got beef with me. Honestly if I could just handle the situation myself I’d be fine but nope I have to endure them talking trash knowing full well nothing will get done about it. However if I do deal with it in the manner I would see fit. I definitely would be banned. These forums hold proof of that.

Then you have the players who don’t meta to win. The users who throw matches on purpose. The new people who don’t have a clue or chance to hold their own because the new user experience is complete crap. The lore build players. The urbie players. The 50% w/l ratio matchmaker constantly stacking odds to keep you 50/50.

Yeah it’s not fun.

I'm gonna have to disagree that engine updates to engines with a fair a mount of custom code is easy. It's generally not easy. What engine are you updating to? another version of Cryengine? Lumberyard? or UE4 like MW5 will be on. UE is an entire rebuild not an upgrade, heck even Lumberyard (which shares the same DNA) could be close to that. Star Citizen made it look easy, but you have to remember how many former Cryengine engineers/employees they ended up with. And going to another version of CE is going to net almost no support from the engine designers (which it seems PGI would need).

The only one that really seems plausible is the use of UE if MW5 does well, as some of the assets would have been transferred already (early mech designs). Cryengine is dying and most of the good specialists are probably at CIG/Amazon already. UE is broadly used and there are many people who have worked with it so picking up new talent is much easier. If MW5 does well, we could get our upgrade/rebuild to UE for MWO 2.0.

Edited by kuma8877, 21 August 2017 - 01:28 PM.

[Imperius]

kuma8877, on 21 August 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

I'm gonna have to disagree that engine updates to engines with a fair a mount of custom code is easy. It's generally not easy. What engine are you updating to? another version of Cryengine? Lumberyard? or UE4 like MW5 will be on. UE is an entire rebuild not an upgrade, heck even Lumberyard (which shares the same DNA) could be close to that. Star Citizen made it look easy, but you have to remember how many former Cryengine engineers/employees they ended up with. And going to another version of CE is going to net almost no support from the engine designers (which it seems PGI would need).

The only one that really seems plausible is the use of UE if MW5 does well, as some of the assets would have been transferred already (early mech designs). Cryengine is dying and most of the good specialists are probably at CIG/Amazon already. UE is broadly used and there are many people who have worked with it so picking up new talent is much easier. If MW5 does well, we could get our upgrade/rebuild to UE for MWO 2.0.

It should have started now instead of wasting resources on Solaris. Obviously I’m talking about unreal. If anyone has followed my rants you’d know this.

[kuma8877]

Imperius, on 21 August 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

It should have started now instead of wasting resources on Solaris. Obviously I’m talking about unreal. If anyone has followed my rants you’d know this.

Then you're asking for a rebuild, not an upgrade. It would essentially be a whole new game, even if it played the same.

[Imperius]

kuma8877, on 21 August 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

Then you're asking for a rebuild, not an upgrade. It would essentially be a whole new game, even if it played the same.

Nope because the majority of the assets are done and mw5 being playable pretty much means the portion required to be a pvp game is done. Remember a bunch of these features they had to build for this crap engine come standard in unreal.

[kuma8877]

Imperius, on 21 August 2017 - 01:44 PM, said:

Nope because the majority of the assets are done and mw5 being playable pretty much means the portion required to be a pvp game is done. Remember a bunch of these features they had to build for this crap engine come standard in unreal.

A fair point to some degree, but that groundwork isn't done until MW5 is feature complete (playable doesn't mean feature complete, it could just be a vertical slice), at which point I would agree, it should be much easier (as I've said numerous times myself when discussing 2.0) but asking for that today is putting the cart before the horse. It's still a rebuild because you're waiting for all that to be built in UE for MW5.

Edited by kuma8877, 21 August 2017 - 02:02 PM.

[Imperius]

kuma8877, on 21 August 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

A fair point to some degree, but that groundwork isn't done until MW5 is feature complete (playable doesn't mean feature complete, it could just be a vertical slice), at which point I would agree, it should be much easier (as I've said numerous times myself when discussing 2.0) but asking for that today is putting the cart before the horse. It's still a rebuild because you're waiting for all that to be built in UE for MW5.

What features does mwo have that aren’t standard in unreal? The only thing I see being an issue is maybe having to rebuild the FP map and all the maps. If you’ve used unreal like I have you’d know map building is super simple. Again these maps are already done. Though I’d wish only some transferred over.

[kuma8877]

Just because UE has features available, doesn't mean it's like flipping a switch and there they are all fully formed and ready to be presented as a particular IP. If it was a simple as you make it sound, games should take mere months to put together AAA titles in UE. But we both know that's not the case, not even for direct sequels. Also, a lot of games that are built in UE still use other 3rd party or proprietary software to round out the edges and provide other kinds of functionality that UE either doesn't do as well or at all and all of that stuff needs to play well together.

And besides, if you were switching over to a different engine to move your game forward wouldn't you try to make it better in all aspects that you could rather than just rehashing what you did before? Meaning adding and testing new features that might be new ground or new ways to use the existing tech in more interesting ways. I'm pretty sure no good gamedev uses UE's features as they come out of the box and they spend significant time making sure they don't look like outta the box features, even if they are.

My bigger point was that I think you're oversimplifying what it takes to make games and transfer engines, especially decent or good ones.