113 replies to this topic

[DevlinCognito]

Aye, we're supposed to go Clans this week, but I've been enjoying clicking 'Launch' and getting insta-drops. Yes we drop into full teams of Clammers on the regular, but I'd rather shoot Mechs than stare at a spinning wheel.

Plus Clan Mechs are dull.

[El Bandito]

Carl Vickers, on 22 August 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

Oh boy, someone once said, Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt.

Clans are easier than IS, by a reasonable margin, no death on ST loss. Before you come back with LFE, still not 50% weight saving, so outright inferior.

Before you starting saying what is easy and whats not, please get above 200 average match score in at least 1 season of QP.

Don't waste your breath on KursedVixen. He is basically Gyrok v.2, but worse in performance.

DevlinCognito, on 26 August 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

Aye, we're supposed to go Clans this week, but I've been enjoying clicking 'Launch' and getting insta-drops. Yes we drop into full teams of Clammers on the regular, but I'd rather shoot Mechs than stare at a spinning wheel.

Very true--Clan side has to wait a long time to drop. As a Clan merc currently, I am just enjoying seeing (MS) tag on TWO district capitals.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 September 2017 - 03:25 AM.

[Zoose]

Lets look at the facts and hopefully reflecting on these basic facts will help the penny drop.

The majority of your top tier teams are playing Clans because it is the the easier mode with the more rewards. I also understand and appreciate why this is the case because we have considered on many occasions switching to Clan because bashing your head against the PGI wall continuously is frustrating and detracts from the enjoyment of the Mech warrior experience.

It pays to play clan because you get to practice the meta for competition games and playing IS fulltime makes it harder to compete in comps because our players dont have the time in the clan meta that other teams have by playing clan full time. Unfortunately for Kurita this one side battle has been going on for years and PGI has taken away the ability to fight for the Red Dragon because we are pooled with all IS with no possibility of reward. These facts make every season a long and hard road and has resulted in most of the historical Kurita teams leaving the game.

Evidence based facts:

1) IS has never won a tukyad event period. There has been a tech upgrade for IS so this fact only indicates there has always been an issue.

2) The current state of the leader-boards by themselves is enough evidence to indicate to people that the battle is one-sided and not even the tonnage advantage makes a difference to the clan tech on the field.

Exhibit one: the current Loyalist Clan stats



As you can see from this Image of todays leader board the top 10 loyalist clan units have taken to date 311 planets and currently hold currently hold 43 planets (providing them with MC).


Exhibit two: the current Loyalist IS stats



As you can see from today's IS Loyalist Leader board the top 10 IS Loyal units have historically taken 48 planets (compared to Clan 311) and no IS team holds a Planet or is gaining (MC).

Winning as IS still gets you nothing

Just this past week I lead a crew of COMA to 6 hours of straight victories and we moved the Victory condition bar to like 5 % by the end of the rotation. There is zero chance to win planets and obtain MC as IS at the moment.

Conclusion

We have a current state of play in which the Top teams (and the majority of the playing population) are continuously choosing Clan and I think it is far fetched to think this is because IS is easy mode as stated in various posts on these forums (actually laughable). It is more beneficial in prep for Competitions (held by PGI or others) and in gaining benefits from the game (planets, MC, C-bills, less stress and a more enjoyable experience) to be Clan.

This results in a one sided blood bath where one side has taken 311 planets (holding 43) and the other side has taken 48 planet (currently holding 0).

Disclaimer: This is not saying that the teams mentioned in this post are not top tier teams by right they are. This post is highlighting the absurdity of some of the posts on these forums and indicating to PGI why they are struggling to keep people in CW.

WHILE I AM POSTING THIS HERE I MAY MAKE MY OWN THREAD>

Edited by Zoose, 09 September 2017 - 04:21 PM.

[Nothar]

Yeah i think the progression bar needs a re-look. I am thinking, the win factor for a planet should be harder and handicap'ed in relation to the population base % for houses. This should absolutely merit a pure more healthy inner sphere map and stem progression at a fair rate for the: steam roller like pre-mades we all strive to operate in.

And what an absolute joke that 14 straight victories and 6 hours straight of Faction play gets you nothing. Bring planet defense win factor down. If we fight on a planet and they don't take the planet - We held the damn planet.... Simple. Hugely depressing and winded us having nothing to show for making evil and ms sit down and pack up for the night.

[Nothar]

Just incase you need a visual representation;




"spartens... you dare refuse my batchal? "

Edited by Nothar, 10 September 2017 - 08:48 PM.

[DevlinCognito]

Countdown to Clanners responding that IS is easy mode with OP quirks and huge tonnage advantage in 5, 4, 3...

[The Basilisk]

Over and over the same discussion since closed beta when there was no separated group queue.

Teams tend to use coordinated loadouts and tactics. And since teams will use those coordinated loadouts and tactics they will use the mechs where those loadouts and tactics function best.

--> Teams use Clan mechs with adjustable hardpoints and weapons with large range brackets that make movement coordination easy.

As long as there is no TEAMPLAY inherent advantage in playing IS side teams will go for the side where teamplay works best.
(sure there are loyalist Units on IS side that actually win one or an other match)

End of story.

[Nothar]

The Basilisk, on 10 September 2017 - 01:13 AM, said:

Over and over the same discussion since closed beta when there was no separated group queue.

Teams tend to use coordinated loadouts and tactics. And since teams will use those coordinated loadouts and tactics they will use the mechs where those loadouts and tactics function best.

--> Teams use Clan mechs with adjustable hardpoints and weapons with large range brackets that make movement coordination easy.

As long as there is no TEAMPLAY inherent advantage in playing IS side teams will go for the side where teamplay works best.
(sure there are loyalist Units on IS side that actually win one or an other match)

End of story.

Far from the end of the story. The cute thing is the story of Mechwarrior is ever told that Clan tech is FAR Superior. IS only win because of better strategy/tactics, experience and hardship. Clan warriors are boarder-line suicidal and moronic. Pride blind. They fight hard, but not as hard as the people taking their last breath in there home system.

So in essence the balance we see in MWO is a piece of fragile art that IS ACTUALLY GETTING BETTER. From a competitive mindset. It's not perfect, and its blatant. If you think IS tech is where it needs to be and that the problem is; groups in queues. Your far off. Funny enough the problem is actually this diverse population thing we got going. Groups in queues is like saying; sand at the beach, water in the ocean, privileged Clanners, Gee.. that wind is windy... ect ect.

Its simple. If 'A'; costs less, shoots from a longer distance, harder damage, with a cooler efficiency. With more mobility... umm.. hell will give them ALL the high hard-points as well (COMPARED TO ALL RELATIVE IS TONNAGE COUNTER PART'S). Then 'A' is not balanced. Effortlessly steam roll Inner sphere pilots as a clanner, and have a ridiculous win/lose ratio for the 3 tours i've done for clan. Needless to say My home is kurita. I work hard to out-think the better armed and equipped enemy. Don't mind us though we're not going anywhere, still here. Sucking it up and waiting our turn.

If a bunch of cross eyed mindless muppet's can log on for 2 hours and take a planet with a lose here or there. And a 12 man that wins 14 times straight in 6 hours against some of the most organised fu*kers in the game - get nothing. THEN YOU HAVE A PROBLEM.

Edited by Nothar, 11 September 2017 - 12:23 AM.

[Nothar]

Oh i am not complaining about the diversity in population either, Just the lack of....
But we need:
Population to magically soar
C-Heavy lasers removed
Free up some hard-point allocation and remove all the filler mechs(High % of Inner-sphere variants) from the game that are click bait, and remarkably very un-forgiving expenditure for all players, but more so the vulnerable newbie that doesn't know any better.
mWo would shoot rainbows out its *** with these things.

Edited by Nothar, 10 September 2017 - 08:52 PM.

[Fake News]

Money for nothing, and Mechbays for free.

we got to move these microwave ovens...

[Mikey Two Guns]

ebolachan, on 10 September 2017 - 09:26 PM, said:

Money for nothing, and Mechbays for free.

we got to move these microwave ovens...

Now that ain't workin', that's the way you do it

Play the clan mechs on the Twitch.tv

[50 50]

Nothar, on 10 September 2017 - 06:00 PM, said:

...can log on for 2 hours and take a planet with a lose here or there. And a 12 man that wins 14 times straight in 6 hours ... - get nothing. THEN YOU HAVE A PROBLEM.

This has been commented on elsewhere in the forums and has been a problem since phase 1.
The system as it is does not recognise participation and the amount of victories a faction might win over the course of an attack phase.
It has always been a case that the efforts of players on one side can be completely thwarted by a sudden influx of players on the opposing side just before the end of the phase and deny a victory.
In the end, the tug of war functions more or less like the sector system and has the same problem.

The solution may be to use more of a tally approach so that a side that does put in the effort, fights for a number of hours and gets a number of victories adds those victories as tallies to a pool for their faction.
At the end of the phase, the faction with the most victories wins.
This ensures that players that are actively participating are rewarded for their efforts.

Few other pieces to go along with that sort of change that would make Faction Play more enticing to new and old players but not going to discuss that here.

[Daidachi]

DevlinCognito, on 09 September 2017 - 11:27 PM, said:

Countdown to Clanners responding that IS is easy mode with OP quirks and huge tonnage advantage in 5, 4, 3...

Hi floor, make me a sandwich.

(Now to see if Devlin's so old he missed the reference).

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Some more Merc teams are IS this week. MS and 420 just moved IS...BCMC (I believe) is currently IS and we are (although partication is lower for us...some of our guys can't drop as they don't have IS decks...being former CSJ loyalists and all).

What difference that will make (or not) on the war log is yet to be determined. However, the quality IS loyalist teams shouldn't be going it nearly alone this week hopefully.

[Khalcruth]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 11 September 2017 - 05:37 AM, said:

What difference that will make (or not) on the war log is yet to be determined. However, the quality IS loyalist teams shouldn't be going it nearly alone this week hopefully.

While true, and I for one am glad for the help, when the above happens just one week in 5, it isn't really going to make a lot of difference. Folks will go back to the clans after a week, stay there for for another solid month, and nothing will have changed.

[Nightbird]

Biggest problem with IS is they have more bad mechs. This does not mean they don't have good mechs, two equally skilled teams will have IS beat clans consistently due to tonnage advantage, using BLRs and assassins. The problem is people bring mechs kinda randomly, so IS teams have worse mechs on average. This wouldn't happen if people optimized more but it's why I avoid dropping solo on IS.

[Dark Wooki33 IIC]

DevlinCognito, on 09 September 2017 - 11:27 PM, said:

Countdown to Clanners responding that IS is easy mode with OP quirks and huge tonnage advantage in 5, 4, 3...

Hmm my IS account had a 20-40 point higer matchscore on average till season 12.
(after the energynerf it is on par ... #wellplayedpgi#makelplsgreatagainplox)
I liked it, but its still fun with the higher tonnage ... my lightest/last mech is a dragon and its pretty brutal/abusive against everything the clanners can bring last wave ...

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Khalcruth, on 11 September 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

While true, and I for one am glad for the help, when the above happens just one week in 5, it isn't really going to make a lot of difference. Folks will go back to the clans after a week, stay there for for another solid month, and nothing will have changed.

Right...I am just talking this week. The past 2 weeks (we have been IS), but for the most part units have been so stacked Clanside that any help (even short term) is welcome

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 11 September 2017 - 07:31 AM.

[Khalcruth]

Oh I agree, I'll take all the help I can get. I'm just a bit pessimistic about how long it will last. And I'm just going by long-term experience here - you can look at the leaderboard and see exactly how many clan vs. IS contracts various groups have taken. The numbers are not in the IS's favor.

[Nothar]

And now the problem sways. They all come to IS at the same time.... Just absolute muppetree. Limit Merc units in houses. Obviously some form of prerequisite to this, perhaps merc units with a certain age and victory tally would generate a good formula. force the merc population straight down the middle, use leader board values to give them all a rating, then halve the teams with equal rating into IS or Clans. I hate to say it but force the balance, force them to segregate and move on if they want any money or reward at all.

De-sync the merc units. Sell contracts for the sake of real contract ideology. They shouldn't be fighting for houses when they have taken everything. Contractors are strictly sourced when the works to be brought back within manageable means for your crew/house. (clanners in particular hate mercs so.... how did we even get here)

Increase the complexity of Merc contracts. As with all contracts abroad in the real world; The work is there and then its not. Simple. The Framework laid out for FP contracts has a hugely negative impact on our diverse population. Force-ably spread them out next phase. The map must be interactive with this level of complexity. We already have the voting feature which is amazing with all aspects of giving the players control. But if liao is getting -50 planets in its first week of the new phase then clearly the Liao coffers spring open and promising contracts start appearing on a new contract availability tab in the community warfare section of the game. If your contracted to kill people you don't get the luxury to fight with them and there new promising contracts anytime soon. Like you do realize that's another level of complexity that must be assumed in any war time operations.
I am a straight up competitive A-hole, all you guys know that, but i want a more clear, stable, actually fair playing field for all. But more so i want a game with players and healthy queue times.

And if your a collective merc corp across many units your a disease (by no means do i imply malice in the use of the word) to this game. You have no place hear, your politics and collaboration is a senseless waste of time that impedes the progress of the game and abuses the fair play fair win criteria for all. Yes numbers win battles and merc corps are pivotal to mechwarrior however with all previous and current faction play framework you inhabit. You inadvertently displace the credibility of the population balance and just stare at the screen and surf mindless victories.... *slow clap* You have manged to coerce the developers of this game into too much merc optimization. Grow up, your politics in this game should stop at your (singular) unit. Man up and do it on your own like the rest of us. Merc alliances should absolutely be a random necessity not a deliberate continuous collaboration. After all you are competing for contracts are you not? Need to pull the carpet out from this behavior. DSYNC them all spread them out make it cost excess if they want to horde together, should be punished make it so they earn near nothing or cost them. Population control fixes everything. This Faction play phase has been all about the mercs (that coincidentally or magically horde clans for the greater part of our community warfare phases). Its time faction play is optimized seriously. Merc units should be lucky to hold A planet, NOT OWN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE. These alliances though highly encouraged and predominant in lore DO NOT and WILL NOT ever meet fair play fair win criteria and its a luxury that needs to be striped at least for now so that the game can actually grow. Because growth in this current direction is just as stale as the last phases. Still looking at a bonsai faction play.

Can't wait to see the real thing!

Bottle necking the queuing has been interesting, i like it in a practical sense but shoulder to shoulder with the lore its kind of redundant. More complexity is necessary i think 2 or 3 queues instead of the current 1 queue; segregate houses evenly into 2's or 3's and let the contract formula do its thing.

Yes absolutely if you defend a planet not of your house then you should be rewarded the same as if it were your own. Your dying for, and saving huge planet sized civilizations. Instead of changing the planets color to your house it should note, label or honor those victors as a Stewart for defending said house not of your own. Until that MC slow release fertilizer resets.

I am passionate about this FP aspect. Nothing else quite like it in the world. Its by no means going to be easy to perfect because it hasn't been done. I could argue all day about this stuff. Feel free to let rip and tell me how wrong i am!