105 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

all hes doing is asking to put all lasers into the same ghost heat group. id actually extend this to all energy weapons. i think id just have 3 groups one for each weapon type. or better yet other effects more in line with the mechanics of each weapon type.

lasers keep their severe ghost heat. missiles get less severe ghost heat and ghost spread. ballistics get less severe ghost spread mixed with recoil effects (reticle shake for high dps or hgauss style recoil for big ballistic alphas).

would be better than ghost heat all the things, would control boating of individual weapons systems, and encourage mixed builds.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 September 2017 - 12:06 PM.

[MechaBattler]

One meta falls. Another rises. Hail hydra and all that.

Uhh, heat penalties? Energy Draw? Umm...sized hard points I think is an MW4 fan favorite.

Could give lower heat cap and higher dissipation another shot.

[Antares102]

The OPs point indirectly summarizes everything what is wrong with this game.

Tons of people who are learning-resistant want to lower the learning curve down till they feel powerful/useful in this game. All you whiners want a free lunch in this game without working for it and instead of asking yourself what you did wrong and how you can improve you hit the "New thread" button or even worse twitter Russ how to "improve" the game.

This lead to countless nerfs and (proposed) reworks of this game that were not necessary such as:

• Quadruple nerfing the KDK-3 into oblivion and all its brethren with it even though they did nothing wrong
  
• Killing Gauss/PPC
  
• Energy draw (thanks god it was never implemented)
  
• Nerfing ECM that LRMs become more useful (for potatoes)
  
• Nerfing all good IS mechs into the ground and then also stripping half their quirks because.. hey... you can get them back with skill tree

If you sukc in MWO its not the game thats need to change its focking YOU.

Edited by Antares102, 14 September 2017 - 12:41 PM.

[arcana75]

Mobster, on 14 September 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

TL:DR
Make the videogame closer to Tabletop - include random hit chance for each weapon, include random hit location. Do away with nonsense ghost heat and other crappy anti-alpha attempts.

There's a BT game closer to tabletop: Harebrained Schemes's BattleTech game. Go try the beta it's good.

Otherwise MWO is not tabletop, that much I know from playing it for a short while. Honestly though, MWO is MWO, there's no real point to compare it with anything else even its source of inspiration. MWO could add a launcher firing Elementals and it would still be MWO. MWO is what it is, as PGI has envisioned it. While there's space for constructive feedback, asking for a real-time MWO to become more like a turn-based BT is not the right direction in my opinion.

[Maker L106]

To op...

https://i.imgur.com/FweRnYV.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1qu3KlG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Q8suerp.png

Where is your god now!?

[Edit] Worth mentioning that an alpha from that Mad-IIC on caustic takes it to 62% heat which can refire within 2 or 3 seconds for close to 99% Remains mobile and can fire its SPL's with impunity in that environment. Cold maps make that thing an absolute nightmare. Don't play it much but its a very nice mech.

Edited by Maker L106, 15 September 2017 - 02:04 AM.

[panzer1b]

Honestly it may not fix all problems, but i thing a very good start would be to limit energy alfas to ~50 or so, apply some penalties between 50 and 60, and make any alfa strike above 60 create ALOT of ghost heat, you should be able to fire that stupid aids-vomit 78 alfa build ONCE, and only once, then you are overheated instantly unless you got 30+ heatsinks and its a cold map (90% in that situation would be acceptable).

My opinion may not be that popular, but i really feels its extremely annoying on the recieving end when you are moving around the map and have your assault ST armor stripped from 100% to 0 by a single hitscan laser burn from some random heavy/assault. With alfa limited to ~50-60 you can generally take a bad hit and not be completely screwed for the entire rest of the game, while with your ST (or CT in its a medium) loosing all its armor in like 1-2 seconds of unattentiveness you are basically screwed for the rest of the game. That and itll force people to actually think about how they engage rather then just poke out every 30 seconds or so when they cool down from firing their 70+ alfa strike and completely deny the enemy any method to engage them (proper positioning and rushing a aids-vomit build without dying to the rest of the team is impossible)...

Anyways, thats my 2c, alfas may be a legit tactic, but it just feels so lame (at least on the recieving end) when a random mech that isnt even remotely close to you can strip a component in a single shot without even putting themselves at risk (like a brawler would even if a brawler can carry more alfa strike and way more DPS) or even taking much if any return fire doing so.

Edited by panzer1b, 14 September 2017 - 09:01 PM.

[Mystere]

CONVERGENCE

Edited by Mystere, 15 September 2017 - 01:27 PM.

[Ruar]

The answer is easy, but I doubt it gets implemented. Energy draw.

Each mech gets X energy based on tonnage/engine size/random magic number that can be used at one time. The energy has to recharge but it's a fairly quick process and used to balance rate of fire.

Weapons have cooldown removed.

Each weapon is given a specific amount of energy it uses each time it's fired. You can fire as many weapons as you want as long as you have the energy.

Examples- Using 100 energy on the mech because it's easy. Lets have medium lasers use 10 energy per shot. So a mech with five medium lasers can fire twice in a row before it has to wait for energy to recharge. You could fire one med laser 10 times if you wanted, but heat becomes a much bigger balance factor.

Energy weapons would use more power and so fewer can fire at any one time. Balance other weapons appropriately and you've solved most of the boating problems by putting an absolute limit on how many can be fired at once while not limiting how many can be carried.

This would have the additional effect of making it so some builds would rely more on rapid firing one weapon system instead of alpha firing multiple. It would encourage mixed builds as well since having the ability to engage at different ranges is more important than blasting an alpha or two at one range and then have to sit out of the fight while your energy recharges.

[LordNothing]

Maker L106, on 14 September 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

To op...

https://i.imgur.com/FweRnYV.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1qu3KlG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Q8suerp.png

Where is your god now!?

[Edit] Worth mentioning that an alpha from that Mad-IIC on caustic takes it to 62% heat which can refire within 2 or 3 seconds for close to 99% Remains mobile and can fire its SPL's with impunity in that environment. Cold maps make that thing an absolute nightmare. Don't play it much but its a very nice mech.

people who really hate laser vomit really need to start voting for hot maps. why anyone in a ballistic or missile boat would choose to fight on an icy map is beyond me. thats like throwing away your main advantage. maybe its because lasers are the best backup weapon and so everyone has a few. but still, choose maps in accordance with your loadout.

[Y E O N N E]

LordNothing, on 15 September 2017 - 01:44 PM, said:

people who really hate laser vomit really need to start voting for hot maps. why anyone in a ballistic or missile boat would choose to fight on an icy map is beyond me. thats like throwing away your main advantage. maybe its because lasers are the best backup weapon and so everyone has a few. but still, choose maps in accordance with your loadout.

Ballistics aren't as cold as they used to be...UAC/5s heat you up quite fast.

[LordNothing]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 September 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

Ballistics aren't as cold as they used to be...UAC/5s heat you up quite fast.

its another case for more recoil effects to take the place of ghost heat on ballistics.

during energy draw i was pushing for a 3 bar system where each type of the 3 weapon types would have their own limiting mechanics. lasers would be limited by energy, ballistics recoil, and missiles by targeting computer resources. the light version is ghost heat for lasers ghost spread for missiles and recoil effects for ballistics.

Edited by LordNothing, 15 September 2017 - 01:54 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 15 September 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

lasers would be limited by heat, ballistics recoil, and missiles by targeting computer resources. the light version is ghost heat for lasers ghost spread for missiles and recoil effects for ballistics.

That doesn't really encourage mix builds anymore than ghost heat currently does.....I mean Gauss + PPC or Gauss + Lasers would be the goto thing in that system, that or just more cERML spam.

[LordNothing]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 September 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

That doesn't really encourage mix builds anymore than ghost heat currently does.....I mean Gauss + PPC or Gauss + Lasers would be the goto thing in that system, that or just more cERML spam.

mixed builds would never really max out any of the effects that a boat would always run into. especially if effects start a lot sooner than they do now. hard ghost X groups heat are gone in favor of softer ones. instead of being based on number or class of certain weapons. lasers would go into an afterglow phase that lasts 2-3x its cool down where the laser has some residual heat still in its workings, say 10% of the total heat output. this declines during the afterglow cycle. if you fire weapons while they are in afterglow, the current ag values of all fired weapons multiply to give you your gh value. you can still do that one devastating alpha, but if you do it again within 3x cooldowns you will explode.

the ballistic version of this is uncontrollable reticle shake, crosshair deflections, and possibly structural damage. for missiles its going to be spread up the wazoo and something else like halving your detection range. if this applies and each weapon type suffers from overuse, then the best builds would be the ones with a little of everything. its not really about nerfing things but giving the game a little more depth.

Edited by LordNothing, 15 September 2017 - 02:27 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 15 September 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

mixed builds would never really max out any of the effects that a boat would always run into. especially if effects start a lot sooner than they do now. hard ghost X groups heat are gone in favor of softer ones. instead of being based on number or class of certain weapons. lasers would go into an afterglow phase that lasts 2-3x its cool down where the laser has some residual heat still in its workings, say 10% of the total heat output. this declines during the afterglow cycle. if you fire weapons while they are in afterglow, the current ag values of all fired weapons multiply to give you your gh value. you can still do that one devastating alpha, but if you do it again within 3x cooldowns you will explode. if this applies to all 3 effects each weapons suffer from overuse, then the best builds would be the ones with a little of everything.

Congrats, you would kill all lights and any mech that isn't blessed with mixed hardpoints. There is no problem with boats because as Gauss/PPC and Gauss/Lasers already have proven, boats aren't actually the most efficient in the game (even without ghost heat being involved, there is still diminishing returns on mounting a bunch of energy weapons).

The reason boats are more preferred in general is due to a simple problem, synergy. Weapons simply don't work well together and those that do are often nerfed. Gauss + PPC, PPC + AC5, Gauss + Lasers, etc have all been meta at one time but get nerfed because they are too strong because well, competition is rarely there from any other weapon combination because most other combinations simply don't work well. Whether it be AC10s which don't mix with anything due to an odd velocity or AC2s which are DPS oriented and no other extreme range weapon is just like them (ERLL you could make a case for but velocity does become an issue at that range).

Lights and lower end mediums rely on boating because ballistics are simply too heavy for the damage you get out of them (since you don't necessarily need the heat efficiency of most ballistics) and missiles don't combine well as they are either not direct fire, spread too much, have limited range, and/or slow velocities that make combining with hit scan weapons troublesome.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 15 September 2017 - 02:30 PM.

[LordNothing]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 September 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

Congrats, you would kill all lights and any mech that isn't blessed with mixed hardpoints. There is no problem with boats because as Gauss/PPC and Gauss/Lasers already have proven, boats aren't actually the most efficient in the game (even without ghost heat being involved, there is still diminishing returns on mounting a bunch of energy weapons).

i dont think it would kill lights or boats at all. especially if all 3 systems suffer effects. like mixing ballistics and ppcs, the recoil of the former would interfere with the latter. overloading targeting computers with missiles would increase spread and jam chance in ballistics while making convergence temporarily go away. and heat/gh from lasers would stack against other weapon types. cross effects are the key to keep mixed builds under control.

Edited by LordNothing, 15 September 2017 - 02:35 PM.

[Bigbacon]

there is nothing wrong with boating anything...the problem is being able to boat and just do it without consequences.

[Jun Watarase]

Trissila, on 14 September 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

So what are you defining as "a varied build"? Not in the sense of having multiple viable builds, but in the sense of the only viable builds being ones that use a haphazard smattering of different weapon systems?

Because being mediocre at several ranges has been inferior to being good at one range for over 20 years now.

And this is why people just boat one weapon system. We need to make more weapons effective, especially when mixed, because otherwise people will just boat one type of weapon. Im not talking about mixing LRMs with SRMs, but for example, there is no reason to use lasers with SRMs at all because the skill tree + quirk system encourages boating.

Right now there is basically zero reason not to run laser vomit on most maps because it is the best option, which is why most mechs in the first three waves are laser vomit. And even on hot maps, IS pulse boats are extremely popular because they are heat efficient + pretty much PPFLD + hitscan.

So what you get is a game where you have 2-3 builds that vary depending on the map, excluding joke builds like AC 20 cicadas, and the builds you get are all one type of weapon to maximize quirks/skill tree. There should be an actual reason to use the energy hardpoints on a Sleipnir, right now there isn't. Most mechs have the same problem.

Pretty much every popular/famous game forces you to use multiple options to be effective, marine spam in starcraft does not get you very far in competitive play for example, but laser vomit spam is pretty much competitive play on most maps and some maps pretty much force you to go laser vomit or lose against an equally skilled team.

There is zero variety and it just leads to stale games where you see the same builds with minor variations. There are lots of options in MWO, but only a few viable ones which is simply bad balance.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 15 September 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

cross effects are the key to keep mixed builds under control.

LordNothing, on 15 September 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

key to keep mixed builds under control.

LordNothing, on 15 September 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

mixed builds under control.

LordNothing, on 15 September 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

under control.

I.....I just don't understand you guys sometimes. If the point is that EVERY build is doing too much damage, then suggest lowering heat thresholds and dissipation. Done. There are easier ways to limit sustained and alpha damage amounts with a mechanic that EXISTS for that reason (aka heat).

[Jun Watarase]

Balance isnt as simple as that. Making things hotter means that everyone just goes straight back to ballistic boating. As it is, UAC 5 boaitng is already extremely popular and powerful on hot maps.

If you look at all the reasons why laser vomit is king, its pretty easy to see why its the #1 option at the moment :

-Hitscan, why bother leading targets when you can point and click for massive damage? Its not hard. Using IS pulse lasers in QP feels like cheating honestly, 36 pinpoint damage to any location i want, and thats only 6 MPL.

-Burn durations with some lasers are so low they are pretty much pinpoint damage anyway. Main culprits are IS pulse lasers that can go down to 0.5s burn durations.

-Can get VERY heat efficient for their tonnage, ballistics do slightly more than 3 damage per heat but are very heavy, pulse lasers are about 2 or more depending on quirks. Most heavies are better off running laser vomit than trying to use ballistics.

-Cold maps are more popular than hot maps in QP beause people vote for maps that suit their laser vomit builds. Voting was a bad idea in the first place.

-Anything that does spread damage is universally disdained unless you are playing on a map where you can simply stand behind a corner with an assault and fire SRMs at sub 100m ranges or you are boating SRMs on a fast, tanky, mech and its a brawl map. Spread being range dependant creates balance issues, if you make spread decent at 270m range for example, then at 150m range it becomes PPFLD and you create a monster.

-Ammo is way too heavy, especially for missiles that never got their ammo increased to account for double armor + quirks. This is one of the most common complaints that i hear because people want to fire forever and get extremely high match scores.

Thats just the tip of the iceberg. I dont know why i wrote all that because its not like PGI cares anyway, since they still refuse to make LBXs viable after 5 years.

[Stone Wall]

Speaking of lasers, I'm the best lasers lag shooter in MechWarrior 3. Come get some on GameRanger on Sundays.