120 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Zergling, on 24 September 2017 - 01:27 AM, said:

Asymmetric teams might have worked if they did that from the start, but you can forget about PGI changing the whole game to make it work now.

It just ain't gonna happen.

PGI does not have to "change" the whole game. They can just add asymmetric game modes.

Dakota1000, on 24 September 2017 - 12:16 AM, said:

Asym teams do seem to work just fine in private matches. I remember talk that people did try out 12v10 IS vs Clan fights at Clan launch and found it to favor IS.

Psst! No one is supposed to state "inconvenient" truths.

Teer Kerensky, on 24 September 2017 - 03:28 AM, said:

That I don't remember.

What I remember they said the game engine doesn't like anything other than one team versus another, because there is so lots of code that assumes two teams. This was in particular for difficulties of everyone vs everyone mode.

Which explains why we are not getting any free-for-all Solaris game mode.

Heresy!

[Jay Leon Hart]

Mystere, on 24 September 2017 - 05:48 AM, said:

PGI does not have to "change" the whole game. They can just add asymmetric game modes.

Which no-one would play past the first week/month? Sure, seems like a great idea to invest waste time on!

[Jackal Noble]

stealthraccoon, on 23 September 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

Urbanmechs.



Urbanmechs.

Urbie approves this message.

[Mystere]

Yellonet, on 24 September 2017 - 03:39 AM, said:

In my case it's not about role play as I've no BT history.
For me it's mostly about clans in fact having superior equipment and to me it feels very wrong to use things like that, in any game.
Furthermore, several clanners around here have confirmed my preconceptions about what kind of persons play clans and why they do it, so that definitely makes clans a no for me.
Clan apologist that come on the forums with the agenda to muddy the waters about clans in fact being superior just makes me loath clanners that much more.

In commemoration of the Battle of Britain, War Thunder just recently had an event in which the German and British forces were uneven.

People probably did not have fun playing that one. At times, the concurrent player population dipped below 30000 at one point during the wee hours. MWO's number were probably better.

Also:

FupDup, on 23 September 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

I've never understood the roleplaying mindset that people have where they think they can only play one faction or the other. Play whatever mech you want whenever you want; all the matters is that you contribute to the team.

People seem to forget that that faction tag displayed under one's name is just a part of the game and not a life-altering choice and that people can and do play both sides.

Jay Leon Hart, on 24 September 2017 - 05:55 AM, said:

Which no-one would play past the first week/month? Sure, seems like a great idea to invest waste time on!

That's what random map and game mode selection are for, silly.

[Jackal Noble]

At OP, you can't be a grown man let alone a father who's own offspring plays this very game as well, and actually be suffering any sort existential crisis regarding two fictional factions in a video game representation of that universe. I mean at this point in your life, your powers of deduction and analysis should be rounded enough to see that balance is approximate.
Apparently that is not the case, so we fall back to Plan B, (my preferred approach) and you buy every frigging mech you feel like owning. Then and only then will you see the err in your overall assessment. That and T5-4 most likely, just saying.


edit-grammar

Edited by JackalBeast, 24 September 2017 - 08:59 AM.

[Electroflameageddon]

JackalBeast, on 24 September 2017 - 06:11 AM, said:

At OP, you can't be a grown man let alone a father who's own offspring plays this very game as well, and actually be suffering any sort existential crisis regarding two fictional factions in a video game representation of that universe. I mean at this point in your life, your powers of deduction and analysis should be rounded enough to see that balance is approximate.
Apparently that is not the case, so we fall back to Plan B, (my preferred approach) and you buy every frigging mech you feel like owning. Then and only then will you see the err in your overall assessment. That and T5-4 most likely, just saying.


edit-grammar

Interesting.

I started this topic because I definitely was surprised at the performance of this particular mech.

I may have been a little melodramatic because this amused me. Plus it kept the subject light-hearted, as there enough salt in these forums to create a harem of Lot's wives.

Evidently, it has amused others, if the number and type of responses indicate amusement.

I have also found one or two mech builds that compliment my non Tier 4 or 5 play style, generously given to me by other players.

Thank you for reminding me why I am a IS loyalist. I appreciate it.

[Jun Watarase]

The Nerf Bat, on 23 September 2017 - 11:15 AM, said:

Bad math.

25 tons / 4 mechs is 6.25 tons.

A lot closer to 5 tons than 10 tons.

Unless you like horribly biased simulations.

25 tons for the first 3 waves = nearly 10 ton advantage per wave for the first 3 waves. People drop with heavier mechs in the first 3 waves for a reason. IS lights are also generally better because maxing out JJs in MWO is a dumb thing to do.

[Void Angel]

Mystere, on 23 September 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

And you actually believed that? <smh>

And that right there showcases a facts-free attitude where confident assertion is claimed as fact. When the only source that has the information available to support or disprove a claim is hand-waved away, you've entered a fantastical land of fairy wishes and might-have-beens where things like "they just have to," and "all they have to do is," never need be based on practical concerns.

Resort to a genetic fallacy via a fallacious, ad hominem appeal to common wisdom isn't a convincing rebuttal - but it is a way to disqualify yourself from being taken seriously.

[MischiefSC]

Jun Watarase, on 24 September 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

25 tons for the first 3 waves = nearly 10 ton advantage per wave for the first 3 waves. People drop with heavier mechs in the first 3 waves for a reason. IS lights are also generally better because maxing out JJs in MWO is a dumb thing to do.

Unless the IS light you're tslking about is a 40 ton Assassin, again Clan mechs are better. Cuz ACH.

[Mystere]

Void Angel, on 24 September 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

And that right there showcases a facts-free attitude where confident assertion is claimed as fact. When the only source that has the information available to support or disprove a claim is hand-waved away, you've entered a fantastical land of fairy wishes and might-have-beens where things like "they just have to," and "all they have to do is," never need be based on practical concerns.

Resort to a genetic fallacy via a fallacious, ad hominem appeal to common wisdom isn't a convincing rebuttal - but it is a way to disqualify yourself from being taken seriously.

I don't know about you, but for me prior experience dictates that what PGI says should not be taken at face value. <shrugs>

Or did CW actually come out within 90 days after release?

What about Inverse Kinematics? Is that out already?

Ammo switching for LBX, where are we on that?

And last but not least <drum roll please>:

Dakota1000, on 24 September 2017 - 12:16 AM, said:

Asym teams do seem to work just fine in private matches. I remember talk that people did try out 12v10 IS vs Clan fights at Clan launch and found it to favor IS.

If as you say "the game engine doesn't like having asymmetric team sizes", then why is the above even possible?

Fact free you say? Give us all a break.

Edited by Mystere, 24 September 2017 - 04:24 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Except we have already gone over what an abject failure having OP clans vs red shirt IS would be.

So 60% of the population needs to consistently elect to be the redshirts who win by smothering the other team with their dead bodies.

Given the advantage of focused fire it wouldn't work with stock TT stats - you would need to buff Clans even more. It would in no way, shape or form be "easier" than balancing 1 to 1. It would also still not be like TT because the pilots wouldn't be better.

Or are we saying that only the top 10% of players get to play Clans? That would be like lore.

Sure, that would be awesome. Harder to balance than what we have, would still have stats wildly divergent from lore to make work and only a small % of players gets to play clans. Effectively the game design is comps and vets in advanced superior tech farming new players and bads in bad mechs.

That would be amazing. I bet you could almost get enough players to fill a single match a few times per week.

How about you run private matches, IS in 3025 stock mechs and Clans in whatever meta they want and do 10 v 12. See how many show up to play. Then try to run that 24x7 because it's representing the only option to play.

Let us know how that works out for you.

[MechWarrior5367362]

Didn't read the whole thread, but has anyone bothered to tell OP that the Hunchback and Hunchback 2C are not similar mechs, despite their shared nomenclature?

The Hunchback is usually run as a tough-as-nails, asymmetrical ground-pounder. The 2C is a symmetrical glass cannon that can jump very well if you'd like it to.

OP: If you did much better in the 2C, perhaps it's because the glass cannon fits your playstyle better. There are glass cannons on the IS side, but it is a type of build that clans typically do better. So: If you want to expand your stable of glass cannons and play them heavily in the future, you better get over your aversion to clan mechs.

[Clownwarlord]

I went clan for the money, others went for the tech, and over all just do what you want for the fun.

[AncientRaig]

The Weka, on 24 September 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

Didn't read the whole thread, but has anyone bothered to tell OP that the Hunchback and Hunchback 2C are not similar mechs, despite their shared nomenclature?

The Hunchback is usually run as a tough-as-nails, asymmetrical ground-pounder. The 2C is a symmetrical glass cannon that can jump very well if you'd like it to.

OP: If you did much better in the 2C, perhaps it's because the glass cannon fits your playstyle better. There are glass cannons on the IS side, but it is a type of build that clans typically do better. So: If you want to expand your stable of glass cannons and play them heavily in the future, you better get over your aversion to clan mechs.

It's rather hard to dispute that Clan mechs are superior machines though. I have a TBR-Prime I keep set aside for rainy days that I can all but guarantee a good match score in, and it's not even set up to abuse the meta as much as it possible could. I don't really have any IS mechs that I can say the same about, and I have some very good IS mechs.

[MechWarrior5367362]

TBRs have been nerf-whacked. I wouldn't run one.

In my neck of the woods (lights and fast mediums), IS mechs are probably a little better. The best evidence is the scouting meter, which gives the IS an advantage pretty regularly.

Edited by The Weka, 24 September 2017 - 07:42 PM.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2017 - 04:36 PM, said:

Except we have already gone over what an abject failure having OP clans vs red shirt IS would be.

So 60% of the population needs to consistently elect to be the redshirts who win by smothering the other team with their dead bodies.

Given the advantage of focused fire it wouldn't work with stock TT stats - you would need to buff Clans even more. It would in no way, shape or form be "easier" than balancing 1 to 1. It would also still not be like TT because the pilots wouldn't be better.

Or are we saying that only the top 10% of players get to play Clans? That would be like lore.

Sure, that would be awesome. Harder to balance than what we have, would still have stats wildly divergent from lore to make work and only a small % of players gets to play clans. Effectively the game design is comps and vets in advanced superior tech farming new players and bads in bad mechs.

That would be amazing. I bet you could almost get enough players to fill a single match a few times per week.

How about you run private matches, IS in 3025 stock mechs and Clans in whatever meta they want and do 10 v 12. See how many show up to play. Then try to run that 24x7 because it's representing the only option to play.

Let us know how that works out for you.

The 10 vs. 12 tests resulted in the so-called red shirts winning -- consistently. Dwell on that for a minute.

...

Done?

Dwell on this next:

Mystere, on 23 September 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

Now if only the game used lore-friendly Clan and IS formations and tailored them to the proper game modes.

Of course, if generic eSpurts was really the goal all along and the now long forgotten "4 pillars" were just a smokescreen ...

But I'm probably getting into tinfoil hat territory here, right?

Edited by Mystere, 24 September 2017 - 07:54 PM.

[Kanil]

Mystere, on 24 September 2017 - 07:46 PM, said:

The 10 vs. 12 tests resulted in the so-called red shirts winning -- consistently. Dwell on that for a minute.

Done?

So either one of two things happens.

A: We don't buff the Clanners, and they perpetually lose. We've created an imbalance even worse than what we have now.

B: We do buff the Clanners, and the Clanners win exactly half the time. Clan players now get ~50% more kills than a typical IS player.

"Make the game more imbalanced" or "Make IS players cannon fodder" are both worse choices than "nerf Clan 'mechs until they're roughly as valuable as an IS 'mech".

[Mystere]

Kanil, on 24 September 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

So either one of two things happens.

A: We don't buff the Clanners, and they perpetually lose. We've created an imbalance even worse than what we have now.

B: We do buff the Clanners, and the Clanners win exactly half the time. Clan players now get ~50% more kills than a typical IS player.

"Make the game more imbalanced" or "Make IS players cannon fodder" are both worse choices than "nerf Clan 'mechs until they're roughly as valuable as an IS 'mech".

Sigh! Here is another one who keeps missing one simple point. Alas, I am now forced to do this:

Mystere, on 23 September 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

tailored them to the proper game modes.

I think you need to dwell on this for much much more than a mere minute.

Edited by Mystere, 24 September 2017 - 09:23 PM.

[Kanil]

Well, instead of just increasing the font size and quoting yourself repeatedly, how about you offer an example of a "proper game mode" that doesn't result in the Clanners getting massacred or the IS being fodder?


Edit: I suppose, while asking you to explain why you think it will work, I will offer my reason why I do not think it will work.

12v10 results in there being 12 kills divided between 10 Clan players, giving an "average" Clan player 1.2 kills per match. For the IS, it's 10 kills divided between 12 players, for 0.83 kills per match. Good players will score more, bad players less, but ultimately most players will be getting about 50% more kills playing Clan than they will IS.

People typically like killing 'mechs, so I'd imagine if one faction offers 50% more kills than the other, most players will head to that faction, creating a pretty massive population imbalance. Doubly so if overall winrates between the two are even, as balance would more or less require them to be.

I would only play IS in 12v10 during events, effectively having to be bribed MC to bother play the fodder faction.

Edited by Kanil, 24 September 2017 - 09:44 PM.

[Vellron2005]

Electroflameageddon, on 22 September 2017 - 09:05 PM, said:

I am totally confused.

I have been a IS loyalist for the last 2-1/2 years. Nothing but IS mechs in my Mech Bay.

I bought the Hunchback IIC hero as a lark. Figured that the Grid Iron is total crap, so I may as well try a Clan Hero mech to make up for the lackluster Hero Huchie.

After pressure washing the cockpit and hanging up an air freshener to get rid of Clanner stink, decided to take it out for a test run. First match 3 kills. Second match 2 kills. This thing is awesome. I already have 8 SP in 4 matches. Nothing in the IS has been this good....

Now what do I do? This mech is everything that the Grid Iron is not. Am I going to the dark side? Do I need to clone myself and be a vat born?

I'm so conflicted....

Well you know.. the Clans did not come to the Innnersphere to conquer, murder and pillage, but to teach and unify.

So we will always be happy to teach your our honorable ways, and make you a bondsman. Our tech, for instance, is not as superior as you might think, although it might seem so.

You will learn as you familiarize yourself... There are strengths and weaknesses to everything.. be it a hundread-year old hunchback or a brand new one..

Don't feel conflicted. Many have stood where you now stand. And many have embraced the wisdom the Clans bring.

Don't stand against us. Don't resist what you know in your heart is right.

Join us.

The Clans welcome you.