209 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Yet every time I bring it up, I get told "nobody would want that" which is just... Clan logic, I guess?

because its not needed if the CERPPC is fixed. And we want the CERPPC fixed.

splash damage that disappears into thin air is unacceptable. it needs to be addressed.

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The point is simple - claiming cERPPC does 15 legit damage is just blatant hypocrisy.

especially since half the splash damage disappears if you hit a head/arm/leg.

splash damage is worth at best 1/3rd of pinpoint damage

CERPPC would be fine if splash damage didnt disappear. It doesnt need to do 15 pinpoint damage. But it needs to reliably do 10+5 damage.


Also I still support the idea of undoing the clan skill tree nerfs and just making all external ISDHS into true double heatsinks to address the heat disparity vs CDHS. And buffing all non-heavy PPCs (including CERPPC) to ghost heat limit of 3. And replacing the zero damage deadzone on ISPPCs with damage dropoff instead.

That would make all PPCs better. And do more for IS vs Clan balance than PGI has done in years.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 11:16 AM.

[Koniving]

Yes.

Yes, I am.

Heavy duty PVC pipe, for all your fluid logistical needs.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

And replacing the zero damage deadzone on ISPPCs with damage dropoff instead.

Why even bother with that. 90 meter deadzone was made because PPCs were the ultimate weapon back in the day and no one used ERs so they made a more snipey weapon more potent in close combat because logic.
Now, as we have ghostheat, they can just remove deadzone and it wont break the game. That and giving other PPCs some quirks to keep them viable. Like some splash to snubs, velocity to ERs, etc.

Not revisiting old design decisions is one of the most irritating things in how PGIs address balance.
Gauss charge invented to break gauss+ppc combo? Lets keep it just in case.
AC20 ghostheat in a world of dual MRM40 and dual HGR? Yup keeping that one.
LRM deadzones because they are such a mighty weapons? Of course!

[Khobai]

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Why even bother with that. 90 meter deadzone was made because PPCs were the ultimate weapon back in the day and no one used ERs so they made a more snipey weapon more potent in close combat because logic.
Now, as we have ghostheat, they can just remove deadzone and it wont break the game. That and giving other PPCs some quirks to keep them viable. Like some splash to snubs, velocity to ERs, etc.

because if PPC does full damage under 90m theres no reason to use the SNPPC

so PPCs should still do reduced damage under 90m to keep the SNPPC relevant

SNPPC forces other PPCs to be crappy. Id rather just delete it. But for some reason IS players wanna keep it.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 11:42 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:39 AM, said:

because if PPC does full damage under 90m theres no reason to use the SNPPC

There could be if snubs were doing 10+2.5+2.5 or whatever splash to keep it a valid choice over regular PPC. Or if it were making less heat at the cost of range. Lots of options really.

[ROSS-128]

Tell you what, the CERPPC can do 15 damage when it becomes 10t and 4 slots.

[Y E O N N E]

Nema Nabojiv, on 26 January 2018 - 11:06 AM, said:

The point is simple - claiming cERPPC does 15 legit damage is just blatant hypocrisy. We can stop bullshіting each other for a minute and admit CERPPC is a weapon capped at 20 damage for 30 heat, and in current meta it cannot compete with any other weapon combo in anything save for poptarting. Maybe that is PGI's idea for how it should be used, but well, I dont like it.

That being said, I dont of course claim IS ERPPCs are any better.

It does do 15 legit damage. Shredding 5 off of a side torso for each hit with a pair allows your friends to shoot squishy parts even if they can't necessarily see the CT. It allows you to get a kill or remove a limb even when you miss the CT. All the little advantages add up the longer the match progresses. If all you needed was the 10 damage then the BJ-3 would have been a viable alternative to the HBK-IIC-A with its previous heat, range, and velocity quirks, but it wasn't.

And you can not like poptarting all you want, that doesn't change the fact that the Summoner (and Warhawk) would be ridiculously powerful with ERPPCs that do a full 15.

If you want the full damage to one point, then you will have to accept a penalty elsewhere or accept some significant buffs to the IS PPCs. And I'm not talking about a token 0.5 point reduction to heat, either.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 26 January 2018 - 01:16 PM.

[Snowbluff]

ROSS-128, on 26 January 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

Tell you what, the CERPPC can do 15 damage when it becomes 10t and 4 slots.

HOLY **** PLEASE! I would want this soooooo bad. :0

[ROSS-128]

Back on the topic of actually using HPPCs, well I've been considering using a Thunderbolt variant (haven't decided on which one, but leaning toward 5SS because of its generic energy quirks and the fact I already have one) with two HPPCs in the tightly clustered RT slots. It'd be kind of like having a longer-ranged, 65 ton Hunchback.

Not sure whether to fill the rest of the hardpoints with 5 medium lasers for extra damage/backup weapons, spend the 5t on more heatsinks since the PPCs will need them and the ML range band doesn't play too nicely with the PPC range band, or take something like a large laser as a compromise.

On the more hilarious but much less practical side... an Awesome 8Q can handle 4 of them, in theory. It'd need something like 20 seconds to cool down between shots though, and would have to fire 2x2 to avoid ghost heat.

Edit:

Snowbluff, on 26 January 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

HOLY **** PLEASE! I would want this soooooo bad. :0

Which I hope serves to illustrate why 15/15 for 6t and 2c at ERPPC range is absolutely ridiculous and out of the question.

Edited by ROSS-128, 26 January 2018 - 01:31 PM.

[Snowbluff]

ROSS-128, on 26 January 2018 - 01:27 PM, said:

Back on the topic of actually using HPPCs, well I've been considering using a Thunderbolt variant (haven't decided on which one, but leaning toward 5SS because of its generic energy quirks and the fact I already have one) with two HPPCs in the tightly clustered RT slots. It'd be kind of like having a longer-ranged, 65 ton Hunchback.

Not sure whether to fill the rest of the hardpoints with 5 medium lasers for extra damage/backup weapons, spend the 5t on more heatsinks since the PPCs will need them and the ML range band doesn't play too nicely with the PPC range band, or take something like a large laser as a compromise.

On the more hilarious but much less practical side... an Awesome 8Q can handle 4 of them, in theory. It'd need something like 20 seconds to cool down between shots though, and would have to fire 2x2 to avoid ghost heat.

Doesn't the awesome have like -20% heat for PPCs in total? That's pretty significant. It's like having only 11.5 heat/PPC. Another 10% in skills would make it 10.5 ish. I thin kthe problem would be fitting in enough heat sinks.

Edited by Snowbluff, 26 January 2018 - 01:32 PM.

[Khobai]

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Which I hope serves to illustrate why 15/15 for 6t and 2c at ERPPC range is absolutely ridiculous and out of the question.

how is it ridiculous

you say they get "erppc" range but they really dont due to their lower velocity.

cerppc velocity is garbage. they cant hit anything other than stationary targets at erppc range with that garbage velocity.

they have to take a targeting computer which makes them weigh far more than 6t and 2c. they end up weighing more than ISERPPC with the targeting computer.

CERPPC in a vacuum is really not that good. Its only because CDHS are so much better than ISDHS that CERPPC gets an advantage because it can fire more often. Its a heatsink imbalance more than anything. Ive been saying that ISDHS need to be buffed to be on par with CDHS.

People confuse CERPPC being good with CDHS being good. CDHS are causing the balance problems. Even with laser vomit, CDHS make clan mechs better at it than IS mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 01:44 PM.

[Snowbluff]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 01:35 PM, said:

how is it ridiculous

you say they get "erppc" range but they really dont.

cerppc velocity is garbage. they cant actually hit anything at erppc range with that garbage velocity.

they have to take a targeting computer which makes them weigh far more than 6t and 2c

HUh? Isn't it higher than a PPC? I don't have trouble hitting anything with those.

[ROSS-128]

Snowbluff, on 26 January 2018 - 01:30 PM, said:

Doesn't the awesome have like -20% heat for PPCs in total? That's pretty significant. It's like having only 11.5 heat/PPC. Another 10% in skills would make it 10.5 ish. I thin kthe problem would be fitting in enough heat sinks.

That is precisely the problem, since 4 HPPCs take up 40 tons and 16 slots on an 80 ton mech. Fully half your tonnage will be PPCs.

You'll need endo-steel and an LFE so you can have enough tonnage for a 250 (thus maximizing your TruDubs), and then you'll only have enough tonnage left for 5 more heat sinks. And enough crit slots for 4. I guess the remaining 1.5t can go to an AMS or maximizing armor, since it won't buy you enough engine to squeeze another heat sink in there.

[Snowbluff]

ROSS-128, on 26 January 2018 - 01:37 PM, said:

That is precisely the problem, since 4 HPPCs take up 40 tons and 16 slots on an 80 ton mech. Fully half your tonnage will be PPCs.

You'll need endo-steel and an LFE so you can have enough tonnage for a 250 (thus maximizing your TruDubs), and then you'll only have enough tonnage left for 5 more heat sinks. And enough crit slots for 4. I guess the remaining 1.5t can go to an AMS or maximizing armor, since it won't buy you enough engine to squeeze another heat sink in there.

Eugh, I know it doesn't make sense, but I have an urge to blow my 15 mill on making this happen. o.o

[ROSS-128]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 01:35 PM, said:

how is it ridiculous

you say they get "erppc" range but they really dont due to their lower velocity.

cerppc velocity is garbage. they cant actually hit anything at erppc range with that garbage velocity.

they have to take a targeting computer which makes them weigh far more than 6t and 2c

Isn't the fact that players would be willing to take that statline for 10/4 an indication on its own that the *exact same statline* for 6/2 is maybe, possibly, just a little bit over the top?

For 10/4 it would already be strictly better than every IS PPC in the game, including the HPPC that it's a near-clone of. Because it would have a better optimum range (which is relevant even if the max range is off into "who cares at that point" territory). It would also be going on clan robots, which can have more spare tonnage, more spare crits, and more cooling capacity to spend on it because of how all their other equipment is smaller and lighter.

So with that as a reference point, what makes you think getting that for 6/2 would be remotely fair?

"Woe is us, our lasers are so good that we can't consider using our PPC unless it's blatantly OP!" Clanners, man.

[Khobai]

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HUh? Isn't it higher than a PPC? I don't have trouble hitting anything with those.

a PPC at 1200m/s has an easier time hitting something at 540m

than an CERPPC at 1500m/s trying to hit something at 810m

the CERPPC has a longer travel time to get to its max range.

you have to take a targeting computer to increase the velocity which increases the tonnage/crits the CERPPC takes up. to get the CERPPC to go the same velocity as a ISERPPC requires a level 5 targeting computer, thats 5 extra tons and 5 extra crits.

to get similar velocity and long range performance out of a CERPPC you actually have to invest MORE tonnage than an ISERPPC. its not a hard concept to grasp.

the only thing that barely keeps the CERPPC afloat is the fact CDHS are vastly superior to ISDHS. Which makes the ISERPPC too hot for IS mechs to handle. Like I said, the problem here is the heatsink imbalance. The CERPPC itself is not all that great. It has more to do with CDHS being like 25% better than ISDHS.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 01:57 PM.

[Metus regem]

ROSS-128, on 26 January 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

Tell you what, the CERPPC can do 15 damage when it becomes 10t and 4 slots.

And loses 270m off of the optimal range too...

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

but it has I have difficulty hitting things at that farther range due to its velocity

I, too, find it hard to hit things at range with PPCs (among other things), which is why I keep practicing.

[Metus regem]

Snowbluff, on 26 January 2018 - 01:30 PM, said:

Doesn't the awesome have like -20% heat for PPCs in total? That's pretty significant. It's like having only 11.5 heat/PPC. Another 10% in skills would make it 10.5 ish. I thin kthe problem would be fitting in enough heat sinks.

AWS-8Q

Hot as hell, and you are fracked if anyone gets inside of that 90m dead zone....

Jay Leon Hart, on 26 January 2018 - 01:52 PM, said:

I, too, find it hard to hit things at range with PPCs (among other things), which is why I keep practicing.

Once you get good with PPC (a targeting computer helps alot), you look at all the laser-taders and roll your eyes.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

you have to take a targeting computer to increase the velocity which increases the tonnage/crits the CERPPC takes up. to get the CERPPC to go the same velocity as a ISERPPC requires a level 5 targeting computer, thats 5 extra tons and 5 extra crits.

to get similar velocity and long range performance out of a CERPPC you have to invest MORE tonnage than an ISERPPC. its not a hard concept to grasp.

So where is my +5 splash damage item for IS?
Or my -1 ton, -1 crit option?

Oh, yeah, right...