167 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Brain Cancer, on 06 October 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

Yes, throwing lore out the window (along with the construction system) would do it, but then you have giant Battletech robots in name only.

That's not throwing out lore as a whole though. Clans having superior tech is a small fraction of BT lore and is probably one of the most contentious fractions of BT lore at that. Saying that without that superiority this is only a BT game in name only is absurd.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 October 2017 - 12:35 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

So then quite simply, stop complaining because MWO understandably HAD to make concessions to get Clans in the game. That doesn't suddenly RUIN EVERYTHING LORE WISE FOREVER. Just because Clan tech is not 100% superior to IS tech doesn't suddenly ruin the spirit of the lore especially given that one of the later points in the lore they try to emphasize (and rightly so) is that Clans weren't the perfect society they thought. Making Clans different but equal does the same job.

The only reason I'm saying that is because that's what's being demanded. "Something IS is inferior to what the Clans have, so it must be changed!" That's all I'm hearing throughout this entire thing. Not only do you not have to have everything exactly balanced, it would be pointless to do so.

IS tech is supposed to be OLD. Hundreds of years in many cases. The Clan invasion saw the increased availability of parts and new mechs because of the threat they became. Double heat sinks, Endo Steel skeleton and Ferro Fibrous armor are upgrades to models that have been around since the time of the Star League...they're only standard on newer models. A lot of the time, the part or ammo simply isn't available so it goes empty or gets replaced. That kind of work takes time.

Clan tech is supposed to be lighter, smaller and have better range at the cost of increased heat....and apparently Autocannons that spazz multiple rounds into the air (because that's somehow more advanced than a single projectile) and ERPPCs that do "splash" damage. That heat is offset by smaller heat sinks. Double heat sinks, XL engines, Endo and Ferro Fibrous are standard issue in the Clans.

Each has strengths, each has weaknesses. It's not a competition bewteen technology bases, it's a competition to understand how to optimize the vehicle in the tech class you're using.

If any "balance" is to be achieved, one would think the easiest way would be to adjust the recharge/reload times on weapons. If LRMs are doing too much damage, make it take longer for them to rearm. If ER Smalls are underperforming, cut the recharge time down. Heat management is still a factor. You either allot for it or you shut down.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Willard Phule, on 06 October 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

IS tech is supposed to be OLD. Hundreds of years in many cases.

Clan tech is supposed to be lighter, smaller and have better range at the cost of increased heat

However, this is a PVP FPS game, so that matters for naught.

You can gnash your teeth as much as you like, but as stated by many people in many threads, Balance > Lore or TT rules. It doesn't matter how close to Lore or TT MWO is, if no-one is playing one side.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Willard Phule, on 06 October 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

The only reason I'm saying that is because that's what's being demanded. "Something IS is inferior to what the Clans have, so it must be changed!" That's all I'm hearing throughout this entire thing. Not only do you not have to have everything exactly balanced, it would be pointless to do so.

Without having everything balanced, the actual depth of mech choice drops dramatically just like it was during the Kodiak. Shallow mech choice makes for a boring game as we saw during the Kodiak meta. So no, it isn't pointless. Is it plausible to have everything perfectly balanced? Sure is, but doesn't mean it shouldn't be a constant effort, the more diverse the meta, the more entertaining the game is at the higher levels.

Ever played a game where the beginning and learning everything is the most fun part of the game? After that it is boring. That's because of bad balance, and PvP-only games cannot afford that tail-off in enjoyment.

Willard Phule, on 06 October 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

Each has strengths, each has weaknesses. It's not a competition bewteen technology bases, it's a competition to understand how to optimize the vehicle in the tech class you're using.

Except Clan tech has no weakness in this game (and it didn't in TT either outside of higher BV counts), because all the issues with it were more centered around Clan war philosophy and other issues with the Clans (like Smoke Jag spreading themselves to thin through the IC), not the tech itself. So again, this makes ZERO sense because none of these weaknesses can even be represented in this game. So having the equipment itself be equal but different seems to suit the game well enough since it creates the strengths/weaknesses part.

Willard Phule, on 06 October 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

If any "balance" is to be achieved, one would think the easiest way would be to adjust the recharge/reload times on weapons. If LRMs are doing too much damage, make it take longer for them to rearm. If ER Smalls are underperforming, cut the recharge time down. Heat management is still a factor. You either allot for it or you shut down.

Then you create the scenario of one shots. If I can one shot you anything else after that doesn't matter. That idea ends up being plain bad. For example you still end up with alphas like are possible today even with TT level damages (2 Gauss + 2 ERLL + 4 ERML = 78 damage in TT).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 October 2017 - 01:21 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Each has strengths, each has weaknesses. It's not a competition bewteen technology bases, it's a competition to understand how to optimize the vehicle in the tech class you're using.

ideally that should be the case. in practice its not. clan tech is just outright better in a number of key ways.

clan CXL and CDHS are better than ISXL and ISDHS. they arnt "equal but different". the clan versions are just better.

clan gauss is also better than IS gauss. clan endo/ferro is better than the IS versions too.

so dont give me crap like "each has strengths and weaknesses" when the clan versions are straight up better.


balance > lore its as simple as that.

if PGI wanted to go the lore route they wouldve done 12v10. but thats not what they chose to do.

with 12v12, both tech bases have to be equal. clans cant have better tech or the game will never be balanced.

Edited by Khobai, 06 October 2017 - 01:31 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

That's not throwing out lore as a whole though. Clans having superior tech is a small fraction of BT lore and is probably one of the most contentious fractions of BT lore at that. Saying that without that superiority this is only a BT game in name only is absurd.

The game's timeline starts in 3025.

It's now 3145. Clantech came in 3050. So that's...all but 25 years worth of 120 years of progression. A small fraction indeed.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Brain Cancer, on 06 October 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

The game's timeline starts in 3025.

It's now 3145. Clantech came in 3050. So that's...all but 25 years worth of 120 years of progression. A small fraction indeed.

Yes, because all BT is about is tech base superiority

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 October 2017 - 01:28 PM.

[Khobai]

yeah but battletech has battle value anyway

MWO has nothing like that to balance out better tech. So the tech bases have to be equal.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 06 October 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

yeah but battletech has battle value anyway

MWO has nothing like that to balance out better tech. So the tech bases have to be equal.

even battle value wasnt great, it helped but it wasnt a full solution ether,

you could UM rush(yes i realize i used Urbies & Rush in the same sentence)
many times having more numbers would be better than better tech,

in a 9v12 / 10v12 / 11v12 game BV helped and worked as intended,
but many times it would end up 27v5 (27UMs vs 5TBRs) and in BV(BattleValue) thats a Fair Fight,

[Khobai]

Quote

even battle value wasnt great, it helped but it wasnt a full solution ether,

it was better than nothing. MWO has nothing. there is absolutely nothing in MWO to keep superior clan tech in check against inferior IS tech.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Yes, because all BT is about is tech base superiority

Heck, the early part of the game is about tech bases nearly falling off the deep end, because ComStar.

Then it's about recovering said tech. The 4SW had a huge Davion setup based on triple strength myomer and Liao thinking it could build super-robots, but getting tricked (and then making modern TSM).

Then it's about a massive arms race to catch up to the Clans (somewhat) as the oldtech machines are literally being wrecked by the regiments. And building up a new tech base. And getting their hands on any scrap of Clan tech to try and use/build their own.

Then it's a bunch of superhigh tech Word Of Blakists Jihading the Inner Sphere with super-robots and superheavies and Clantech Land Air Mechs, while the damage is bad enough that in many cases, people are building primitive tech machines just to try and field an army.

Then it's another tech rundown as the HPG's get sabotaged and we have the Dark Ages- all the while the closed-off Republic is building new experimental superweapons to overwhelm the mostly demilitarized Inner Sphere.

So yeah, actually a lot of it IS about tech base superiority.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 06 October 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

it was better than nothing. MWO has nothing. there is absolutely nothing in MWO to keep superior clan tech in check against inferior IS tech.

not true, MWO has some balance in the way of IS Quirks and Nerfed Clan Tech,
yes its not Perfect but we cant say Balance is the same now as when Clans were first released,

[Khobai]

Quote

not true, MWO has some balance in the way of IS Quirks and Nerfed Clan Tech,

like I said MWO has nothing.

since when has adding quirks ever improved game balance? it hasnt. its made it worse by creating lopsidedness by making certain weapons way better on some mechs than other mechs. all quirks have done is made the disparity between good and bad mechs even greater.

PGI's quirks are an example of how not to balance a game.

Edited by Khobai, 06 October 2017 - 02:05 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

many times having more numbers would be better than better tech,

So, you were actually applying force size multiplier rather than just adding 27 Urbies together and calling that the cost, riiiiiight?

27 vs 5 is a pretty huge one.

[Mcgral18]

Athom83, on 05 October 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

Because of the TT rule of 3 engine critslots being destroyed means death.

Just like how Clams are unable to adjust their armor, and weapons taking weeks to retrofit


MWO isn't exactly lore, you know

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Brain Cancer, on 06 October 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Heck, the early part of the game is about tech bases nearly falling off the deep end, because ComStar.

That's fair, but the whole point is that everyone sucks, it created an environment that was like Fallout. Comstar is your Institute/Enclave (except actually maintaining neutrality) while everyone else is fighting for territory/resources. That's the spirit of the 3025 era, the actual tech doesn't matter so long as it is understood that it was a sudden decline in tech and that tech was rare.

Brain Cancer, on 06 October 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Then it's about recovering said tech. The 4SW had a huge Davion setup based on triple strength myomer and Liao thinking it could build super-robots, but getting tricked (and then making modern TSM).

Then it's about a massive arms race to catch up to the Clans (somewhat) as the oldtech machines are literally being wrecked by the regiments. And building up a new tech base. And getting their hands on any scrap of Clan tech to try and use/build their own.

Then it's a bunch of superhigh tech Word Of Blakists Jihading the Inner Sphere with super-robots and superheavies and Clantech Land Air Mechs, while the damage is bad enough that in many cases, people are building primitive tech machines just to try and field an army.

This is missing the entire point. The spirit of BT isn't the actual arms race (that's just a story telling mechanism the provides a reason for why a conflict isn't immediately resolved), it's the conflict and drama between all the factions within the universe involved. I don't read the Sourcebooks to find out about all the new fancy tech, I read them for the conflict and the drama. Whether that involves an arms race (Clans vs IS is the biggest incident of this and even then it never gets resolved) or it involves some weird politics (Wars of Reaving is the most recent version of this).

Part of the fun of planetary leagues set in the universe isn't dealing with the arms race, its the conflict and drama that arises whether it be based in lore or not. You can argue until your blue in the face that Clans HAVE to be OP to be true BT but the rest of us really don't give a damn, not even the 3025 purists because they believe (as do the actual BT devs) that making the Clans stupidly OP was a bad move in the first place.

Essentially I like BT because it is as drama filled and silly as Game of Thrones but with giant stompy robots. Clans having all this fancy OP tech is inconsequential to that especially given that the things counter-balance them aren't even in this game (logistics, resources, philosophy, BV, etc).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 October 2017 - 02:30 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Cathy, on 06 October 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:

Losing a side torso for any xl engine, and the mech continues slightly slower, is just a stupid mechanic, that should never have existed.

...

That mechanic penalty was drawn partially from the actual TT heatscale. 2 engine crits generates 10 additional heat per round. The TT Heatscale movement penalty is at 5 heat the loss of one movement point, 10 on the heatscale is two movement points with many mechs having 3(walk)-5(run), 4-6 or 5-8 movement points. But MWO heatscale does not affect a mech until it hits 100% (commenting on THAT is useless).

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 06 October 2017 - 02:42 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Jay Leon Hart, on 06 October 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

However, this is a PVP FPS game, so that matters for naught.

You can gnash your teeth as much as you like, but as stated by many people in many threads, Balance > Lore or TT rules. It doesn't matter how close to Lore or TT MWO is, if no-one is playing one side.

So, you have a choice. You have differing tech and deal with it or you make everything equal or there's always going to be crying. At this point, they'd be better off giving up the license and renaming the thing. Then they can do whatever they want without the lore guys getting butthurt.

[Mcgral18]

Willard Phule, on 06 October 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

So, you have a choice. You have differing tech and deal with it or you make everything equal or there's always going to be crying. At this point, they'd be better off giving up the license and renaming the thing. Then they can do whatever they want without the lore guys getting butthurt.

Or you could stop asking for Clams to be OP

There's no reason Asym balance couldn't happen (aside from incompetence)
It doesn't have to be perfect, but an attempt could actually be made

The ML could at least brawl better than the cERML...which it has a very hard time doing right now (because of the other attributes the Clams have)


Balance doesn't have to be equal
It just means Clams can't have superior EVERYTHING

[Andi Nagasia]

Willard Phule, on 06 October 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

So, you have a choice. You have differing tech and deal with it or you make everything equal or there's always going to be crying. At this point, they'd be better off giving up the license and renaming the thing. Then they can do whatever they want without the lore guys getting butthurt.

the choice is less,
1) Keep everything as is and never again work on balance(Deal with it)
and
2) Give up the MW License(as clearly what makes a MW game is one side being much stronger to the other)
its less that

and more so,
1) identifying their is a Problem,
2) looking into ideas and solutions for that problem,
3) test to make sure chosen Solution doesnt case more problems than if fixes,
4) go back to 1 & 2 until game is balanced,
this is what i feel PGI is doing,

i think most of the complains against PGIs Balance is,
Less = PGI is not pursuing balance, and is just trying to cash in,
and more so = PGI isnt looking into balance the way players feel they should,

i hopeful for what the future holds,
but i also think we need better Engine Balance, as it would help the most,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 06 October 2017 - 03:27 PM.