123 replies to this topic

[Lux Monolithic]

Kiiyor, on 18 October 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

You forgot about heat, duration and cooldown!

Yeah I know there are obvious weapon differences. But I am focusing on the statistics that have the greatest effect on total mech efficiency for tonnage.

10 Damage for 1 Ton. That's very efficient.
10 Damage for 7 Tons. Not so much.

In the case of the 55 Ton Stormcrow you can mount 8 HML. Tell me what 55 ton IS mech can come remotely close to an 80 laser firepower?

Yes there are other factors but they are not the main concern. It's the tonnage an IS LPL eats up for the damage.

[Thorqemada]

Jun Watarase, on 18 October 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

>this thread

If all we do is compare one aspect of a weapon while ignoring everything else, then i can do this to make pretty much anything look OP. Watch this :

SRM-6 : 3 tons for 12.9 damage
LRM-10 : 5 tons for 10 damage

SRMs OP right? You pay 2 tons less for 2.9 more damage!

Why do you ask a question when you already know the answer?

Ofc is the SRM better if not OP compared to LRM...

[Shifty McSwift]

Kiiyor, on 18 October 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

You forgot about heat, duration and cooldown!

This made my day.

[Lily from animove]

Illuminous Owl, on 18 October 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

Clan Heavy Medium - 10dmg, 1 ton, 270m
IS Large Pulse - 10dmg, 7 ton, 365m

This is ridiculous. 7 Tons for the same damage and only slightly more range!? Honestly, how is IS expected to compete at all with that? We all know its alpha strike peeking that dominates this game. IS have limited energy hardpoints and no omnis. I mean this is just blatantly stupid. 7 tons? So my Catapult has to use 21 tons to equal 30dmg where a Clan mech only uses 3 tons? O_O (Has far better cooling, more hardpoints, higher mounted, faster)

I have been playing this game a long time, but I just feel the need to talk about this because its so incredibly stupid. Why would anyone ever play IS? Most of the mechs are just plain inferior, and drastically so.

I am of the opinion that there should at least be a discernable advantage to take IS over Clan, that allows the adaptation of a different playstyle to narrow the gap against Clan.

I enjoy playing both sides, but this is just plain stupid.

yeah lets just ignore heat efficiency. And the ability to bring the damage in the relevant component. if you know how to twist you won't find the HML scary. more than 2x the beamduration. but of course vs sitting ducks like lrm's that seems to be op and working increadibly nice to unload high alphas into one segment with low tonnage.

and range matters a lot as well, because not many battles happen at the ranges of the c-HML while the LPL can still be nicely used at 1.5x of it's optimum range. While the HML at this rnage makes nearly no damage anymore.

so yeha nicely gathered numbers, but numbers alone don't make facts, situations ingame create facts to compare weapons.

the efficiency of a weapion is not in it's numbers, it's in it's result on the battefield

how much of the damage the HML fired will land in the desired component. TAHTS what matters.

and here range, heat efficiency and beamduration (because proper opps twist) are way more important than those raw tonnage + damage numbers.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 October 2017 - 12:16 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Illuminous Owl, on 18 October 2017 - 07:20 PM, said:

In the case of the 55 Ton Stormcrow you can mount 8 HML. Tell me what 55 ton IS mech can come remotely close to an 80 laser firepower?

Let be honest here, when did you last saw 8 hml stormcrow? That thing would have huge facetime to do two burns in a row and will be at max hit after that. It looks good in mechlab but it is not a viable build.

[Baba Yogi]

Funny thing is how they actually picked a rather weak clan laser to compare it to IS LPL. I dont even see HvMeds on battlefield, because how good HvL+ERMed is in general. It has brawling range without the heat efficiency of a brawling weapon, has such a long duration to exploit, utterly useless against lights unlike IS LPLs. And cooldown actually matters on short range weapons like these because when you can use them it's just a matter of time for a brawl. There is a reason they are 1 ton weapons, they are backup weapons. Only viable as main weapons on lights. For heavier mechs you get heavier but more efficient weapon systems. And the fact that some still choose to ignore how important burn duration is baffling.

Personally i think HvMeds are useless, it has the characteristics of a backup weapon but generally you want backup weapons for something like missile systems, or you use lbx's and can spare some heat. In first case its best to use mass spls because they are alot more heat efficient and burn duration is great. My atm boat Maddog has 5spls as backup and ive scared away brawling mechs because of repeated CT burns that cored them. Cant imagine doing same with HvMeds, enemy would just change vectors while twisting and most of that damage would go to waste. (not to mention you are easy to target with long duration weapons, as you are not twisting) With spls they already take most of the damage on CT by the time they twist. If you want something with a bit more range however ERMeds are good for that, or Med Pulse. One has more range, other does more focused damage.

Edited by Lordhammer, 19 October 2017 - 01:15 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

FupDup, on 18 October 2017 - 06:32 PM, said:

If only the IS LPL had 11 damage or something.

Nah, that would be cray-cray.

Yea lets further make PPCs and ballistics pointless by buffing the LPL.

[FupDup]

Jun Watarase, on 19 October 2017 - 03:02 AM, said:

Yea lets further make PPCs and ballistics pointless by buffing the LPL.

For ballistics they got lower heat and more DPS, and for PPCs they got more range and PPFLD. I guess the IS LPL could use a slight nudge upwards for its beam duration if the damage got restored, then it's not quite as "pseudo-PPFLD."

[Lux Monolithic]

Nema Nabojiv, on 19 October 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

Let be honest here, when did you last saw 8 hml stormcrow? That thing would have huge facetime to do two burns in a row and will be at max hit after that. It looks good in mechlab but it is not a viable build.

Umm since last time I played my Stormcrow since that's the build I currently use and it works great.

[Khobai]

Quote

This is ridiculous. 7 Tons for the same damage and only slightly more range!? Honestly, how is IS expected to compete at all with that?

I like how you completely ignored beam duration in your comparison. biased much?

The absurdly short beam duration is actually why ISLPL is one of the top weapons in the game right now

If youre going to compare two lasers, at least compare all the characteristics fairly, oh wait then you wouldnt have an argument.

Yes we know clan lasers vomit is better than IS laser vomit. But its not because the CHML is too good or because the ISLPL is lacking. its got absolutely nothing to do with that AT ALL.

Its mostly a result of CDHS only taking up 2 crit slots while ISDHS take up 3 crit slots. It also a result of CES/FF taking up way less crits than IS ES/FF. The crit slot savings allows clans to take about 50% more DHS than IS mechs can. Not just becuase of more crit slots but also because 2-crit slot DHS fit in locations like legs, CT, etc... that 3-slot DHS cant fit in. Clans being able to take more DHS is why clan laser vomit is much more efficient.

wanna fix the energy weapon balance? balancing DHS is the place to start.

Edited by Khobai, 19 October 2017 - 10:55 AM.

[Lux Monolithic]

Khobai, on 19 October 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

I like how you completely ignored beam duration in your comparison

Beam duration is why ISLPL is easily one of the top weapons in the game right now

And why CHML arnt...

Lower beam duration is not worth 7 tons. Most IS Mechs have terrible hardpoint locations making actually hitting the target at all f*cked. To take more than 3 LPL you can't really alpha, and good luck with cooling since you won't have the heatsinks. OOOHHH BEAM DURATION... who cares when you're overheated. It's not worth 7 tons.

All the people complaining IS LPL are OP and the best weapon... lol do you even play IS? I see all your factions as Clan.

How about a TDR-9SE - Think the 3 LPL build is godly? No. It's garbage due to low hardpoints and a 27 alpha. It sucks. It's embarrassingly low firepower for a 65 ton mech. Many other IS have similar shortcomings.
Want to jump into Steiner with my 8 HML Stormcrow Vs. your 3 LPL Thunderbolt? Hell... take any Thunderbolt you want. IS gets 30 DMG for 21 Tons, Clan gets 80 DMG for 8 Tons with better cooling, better hardpoints, significantly faster. If you think a lower beam duration makes up for the tonnage difference... well, I don't know what to tell you. I disagree.

Edited by Illuminous Owl, 19 October 2017 - 11:01 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Lower beam duration is not worth 7 tons.

but it doesnt just get lower beam duration. it gets faster cooldown. better range. better heat efficiency. and much better laser quirks than clans get.

and thats why the ISLPL is considered one of the best weapons in the game. CHML not so much.

I mean FFS the CHML has twice the cooldown. The ISLPL fires twice in the same time it takes the CHML to fire once.

This is why you need to look at ALL the stats when comparing weapons. Not just the stats you want to look at.


Again the problem here is not the ISLPL vs the CHML. The problem is the massive disparity between CDHS and ISDHS. Clans can have way more heatsinks, so they can fire bigger alphas, and fire those alphas more often.

Edited by Khobai, 19 October 2017 - 11:20 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 19 October 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

The absurdly short beam duration is actually why ISLPL is one of the top weapons in the game right now

I'm pretty sure the LPL hasn't been a top weapon since the damage reduction.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 19 October 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

The absurdly short beam duration is actually why ISLPL is one of the top weapons in the game right now

It really isn't, even standard laser vomit builds switched away from LPLs, too much tonnage for not enough damage. LLs/ERMLs are a better combination than LPL/ERML.

[Lux Monolithic]

Khobai, on 19 October 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

but it doesnt just get lower beam duration. it gets faster cooldown. better range. better heat efficiency. and much better laser quirks than clans get.

and thats why the ISLPL is considered one of the best weapons in the game. CHML not so much.

I mean FFS the CHML has twice the cooldown. The ISLPL fires twice in the same time it takes the CHML to fire once.

This is why you need to look at ALL the stats when comparing weapons. Not just the stats you want to look at.

The IS LPL is way less heat efficient when you factor in significantly more heatsinks on a Clan mech.

And too much tonnage for not enough damage is precisely the entire point I have made from the beginning. It's very simple. It's not about duration or anything else. You can't tell me the lower duration makes up for the ridiculous weight, combined with all of the other shortcomings of IS Mechs. Slower, less heatsinks, low slung hardpoints, etc. I mean, you can tell me that... but I think it's ridiculous.

Edited by Illuminous Owl, 19 October 2017 - 11:23 AM.

[Lux Monolithic]

55 Ton Stormcrow on Smurfy: 8x HML, 18 DHS, T-Comp 1, 97.2 KPH - Firepower 80
Maximal DPS: 11.51
Sustained DPS: 3.80

65 Ton Thunderbolt TDR-9SE on Smurfy: LFE 280, 3 LPL, 16 DHS, 69.8 KPH - Firepower 27
Maximal DPS: 8.17
Sustained DPS: 3.92

So a 55 Ton Clan Mech has higher DPS, way higher burst DPS, is 28 KPH faster, doesn't break ghost heat firing 4, and has 2 more heatsinks, better hardpoints, symmetrical build so not all weapons lost in one torso. With Clan T-Comp and skills you're negating range advantage.

Go ahead... Add one more LPL for 7 tons and now you only have 12 DHS. Good luck.

This is just one example... there are many.

Edited by Illuminous Owl, 19 October 2017 - 11:35 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 19 October 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

but it doesnt just get lower beam duration. it gets faster cooldown. better range. better heat efficiency. and much better laser quirks than clans get.

and thats why the ISLPL is considered one of the best weapons in the game. CHML not so much.

I mean FFS the CHML has twice the cooldown. The ISLPL fires twice in the same time it takes the CHML to fire once.

This is why you need to look at ALL the stats when comparing weapons. Not just the stats you want to look at.


Again the problem here is not the ISLPL vs the CHML. The problem is the massive disparity between CDHS and ISDHS. Clans can have way more heatsinks, so they can fire bigger alphas, and fire those alphas more often.

Okay. Again. Because you seem to be dodging this -

For the same weight as 3 LPLs I can run 2 HLLs, 2HMLs and 9 extra DHS. That gives me more damage/tic which destroys the value of the shorter burn duration, more DPS which eliminates the point of faster cooldown, significantly better heat management which wipes out the value of lower heat generation and almost 2x the alpha.

Nobody seriously uses IS LPLs anymore because they lose out on every single front for applying them vs Clans.

Take 2 large and 5 ERMLs and 6 DHS. You will still lose out on damage/tic, DPS, alpha, and heat management but at least not by as much and the DPS is almost comparable (which it isn't with LPLs). You're also in a better place for range. Not by nearly enough to make up for being behind by 50% on alpha and damage/tic but the DPS is pretty close so if you're lucky, you're a better play than the guy in the Clan build and you can win a couple trades at range and then push and he has no teammates you'll squeeze out a win.

However equal skill to equal skill for the same build in the same bracket Clans absolutely win every single option on laser builds. Most especially around LPLs for IS, which are now the LBX of lasers. It's possible that the Wolfhound is still better than the MG ACH for lights after the nerfing of IS laser DPS (which had almost no impact on 90% of clan laser builds but significant impact on 90% of IS laser builds) but you'd have to ask someone like Quicksilver about that to be sure.

[HGAK47]

One cannot simply compare weapons in a vacum. I would say the same to PGI too. Base stats alone do not tell the whole story when every mech has a variable amount of hardpoints.

I mean **** my beloved Spider 5V got a slight overall nerf with the skill tree but at least I had ER Medium lasers to slap on as a small token gesture. Did those whole two lasers really need to be weaker? How about the two lasers on my Yen Lo, did they need to be weaker?

#screwyouoldmechs

[Lux Monolithic]

HGAK47, on 19 October 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

One cannot simply compare weapons in a vacum. I would say the same to PGI too. Base stats alone do not tell the whole story when every mech has a variable amount of hardpoints.

I mean **** my beloved Spider 5V got a slight overall nerf with the skill tree but at least I had ER Medium lasers to slap on as a small token gesture. Did those whole two lasers really need to be weaker? How about the two lasers on my Yen Lo, did they need to be weaker?

#screwyouoldmechs

Duh. I am most certainly not. It comes from my incredible frustration from playing crappy IS Mechs that can't hold a candle to their Clan counterparts that weigh 10 tons or more less. I have over 1500 hours in the game. I'm not an expert, but I do believe I have a pretty viable opinion on the subject. And my opinion certainly isn't gospel. Basically I just have a problem with a weapon that does 10 DMG for 7 Tons. That's f*cked.

<brokenrecord> Yes yes I know. Muh duration, muh cooldown. Sorry, I don't think these things outweigh the disadvantage of severe tonnage restrictions, along with all of the other IS disadvantages. </brokenrecord>

Edited by Illuminous Owl, 19 October 2017 - 12:03 PM.

[MischiefSC]

HGAK47, on 19 October 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

One cannot simply compare weapons in a vacum. I would say the same to PGI too. Base stats alone do not tell the whole story when every mech has a variable amount of hardpoints.

I mean **** my beloved Spider 5V got a slight overall nerf with the skill tree but at least I had ER Medium lasers to slap on as a small token gesture. Did those whole two lasers really need to be weaker? How about the two lasers on my Yen Lo, did they need to be weaker?

#screwyouoldmechs

More to the point, IS mechs have no real options for 'light weight' weapons for use in their often oddly placed (CT/Head) hardpoints. IS lights and mediums took a heavy hit.

My Nova build won't really notice at all. It was always heat that controlled my rate of fire, not cooldown. IS Crabs though? They'll take a hit.