70 replies to this topic

[Cato Zilks]

The snub-nosed ppc is not really that great. It is hotter than the PPC (10 vs 9.5) and has a ridiculous range split that is exactly opposite of what a snub is supposed to have.

This is the Sarna description: "The Snub-Nose PPC is to a Particle Projector Cannon as a sawed-off shotgun is to a shotgun. The Draconis Combine-produced version of the weapon is slightly lighter than a standard PPC, but its energy discharge trails off considerably faster, leading to shorter range and reduced damage capacity over range. An interesting side benefit is the dramatically increased short range, longer than almost any other weapon."

Translation: the damage is supposed to stay constant for a ways, then fall off real fast. PGI, you did the opposite. Why? We don't need Snubs poking out to 600m. That is not their point. Now I don't just want to buff the weapon, so lets give it the same splash ratio as the cERPPC (2/3 PP & 1/3 Splash)

Lets treat the weapon like the brawling energy shotgun it is supposed to be.

1) Make optimal range 300 and max range 375.
2) Drop heat to PPC level (9.5) or just below (9).
3) Make it 7 pinpoint damage with two splashes of 1.5 (rounded, but close to the clan %).

(edit)
I am not committed to the splash damage. I thought people would be more resistant to the heat drop and the increase of optimal range. But lowering the heat on this weapon and and fixing the range are the important points.

Edited by Cato Zilks, 03 November 2017 - 01:14 AM.

[El Bandito]

Why do you want SNPPC (a seldom seen weapon) to be even worse? Cause that's all you are suggesting.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 November 2017 - 09:46 PM.

[Bombast]

If you're using TT stats, the Snubs optimal range is actually correct. 10 damage out to 9 hexes (270 meters).

The weird thing is that it's max range is so much lower than most other weapons. It only gets an extra 180 meters over its TT counterpart (1.4 optimal), while, say, the PPC gets 540 (2.0).

EDIT: Also your version is epic tier garbage.

Edited by Bombast, 02 November 2017 - 09:56 PM.

[Cato Zilks]

Then don't make it splash and just lower the heat. Right now, it is a bad trade off.

[Cato Zilks]

Bombast, on 02 November 2017 - 09:47 PM, said:

If you're using TT stats, the Snubs optimal range is actually correct. 10 damage out to 9 hexes (270 meters).

PGI is not consistent in there application of ranges from TT. I am looking to put the optimal beyond AC20s and SRMs but less than AC10s.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Sarna said:

The Snub-Nose PPC is to a Particle Projector Cannon as a sawed-off shotgun is to a shotgun.

Cato Zilks, on 02 November 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

Lets treat the weapon like the brawling energy shotgun it is supposed to be.

The Snub-Nose PPC isn't even remotely supposed to be shotgun-like. The Sarna comparison is just an analogy. Just like a sawed-off shotgun is a lighter, more compact, shorter-ranged version of the full shotgun, the Snub-Nosed PPC is a lighter, more compact, shorter-ranged PPC.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 02 November 2017 - 10:20 PM.

[Bombast]

Cato Zilks, on 02 November 2017 - 10:15 PM, said:

PGI is not consistent in there application of ranges from TT. I am looking to put the optimal beyond AC20s and SRMs but less than AC10s.

Why?

Cato Zilks, on 02 November 2017 - 10:12 PM, said:

Then don't make it splash and just lower the heat. Right now, it is a bad trade off.

You think it's a good trade to give up over 200ms of max range for 1 heat and 30 meters optimal?

That's terrible.

[sceii]

Bombast, on 02 November 2017 - 10:20 PM, said:

You think it's a good trade to give up over 200ms of max range for 1 heat and 30 meters optimal?

3 words
NO MINIMAL RANGE
this ppc sync nicely with ac20, srms and machine guns.
You can also put it in CT e hardpoint.
if you're tonnage starved, you get 1 more DHS compared to standart ppc and while snppc is on cd this extra heatsink will dissipate 1 extra heat.

[Bombast]

sceii, on 02 November 2017 - 10:50 PM, said:

3 words
NO MINIMAL RANGE

Six words.

Not what we are talking about.

[sceii]

I thought you were talking about how bad snubs are.

[Dee Eight]

Except they're not bad. Lighter, more compact, no minimum range compared to regular PPC. To achieve that, you trade out range.

[LordNothing]

i think i only use snubs when i want to put a ppc in my ct, but want something beefier than an lppc.

wouldn't mind the ranging tweaks, pure short range with rapid falloff vs gradual falloff. and bring the heat down a little to compensate. dropping damage and adding splash is probibly just going to piss people off (even though i personally like that feature of the cerppc and think at least one is ppc should have it). that may be taking the shotgun analogy a little too literally. i believe it was meant to imply short range, not scatter.

so damage stays at 10, falloff from op. maybe add 2 points splash inside 90 meters as kind of a point blank bonus. kinda backwards from the min range of some of the other ppcs. but thats just for flavor.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 November 2017 - 11:26 PM.

[davoodoo]

450m optimal, 675 maximum.
Long optimal range, short maximum range...

tt stats
snub 9/13/15
llas 5/10/15

Edited by davoodoo, 02 November 2017 - 11:45 PM.

[ForceUser]

Promessa, on 02 November 2017 - 09:46 PM, said:

No hold on, if we want it to be like a shotgun, they should make it like a shotgun and not just copy the ppc and make it splash. Just put spread on it and actually create new effects for it. Crazy idea I know.

And what you're describing would make it weaker

It's not LIKE a shotgun, it's comparable to a normal PPC in the same way as a sawed-of shotgun is comparable to a normal shotgun. It's still a PPC, it's range profile just changes. Shorter range, faster damage falloff and no minimum range.

Also it's a perfect companion weapon to AC20s. If you can only fit one AC20 you can slap on two SNPPCs to emulate a 2nd AC20 that's hotter but won't eat into your AC20s ammo and you can alpha them with your AC20 without ghost heat. Same range, same cooldown, 2 is lighter/less crits than an AC20 and don't have to spend tons/crits on ammo for them. Alpha firing two of them + AC20 is 26 heat while alpha firing two AC20s is 23.52 heat.

Example builds:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5b9a8e0190b7783
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...065037832f3bab7

(armor distribution to taste)

[Cato Zilks]

I am aware that the weapon is smaller, and that its range currently matches an AC20. As LordNothing put it, the splash was for flavor, and so an IS PPC also had splash. It is the least important part of this.

I don't like that they inverted the range dropoff dynamic, but I acknowledge that giving it a 450/675 buff maybe be a bit too much and make the PPC too weak by comparison. I think that means the Snub should not be effective at all by the time the PPC starts losing power. 400/500 may be a better split.

I also think the heat addition is stupid. There is no reason to have that the snub be a 10d/10h weapon. It is such a terrible trade on heat for a weapon that starts losing damage at 270m. A heavy ml does the same damage for 2 less heat and 5 fewer tons. The CERPPC does the same pinpoint with 50% splash bonus for 45% more heat, plus the shot goes on for a long ways.

[Daggett]

Cato Zilks, on 02 November 2017 - 10:15 PM, said:

PGI is not consistent in there application of ranges from TT.

That's probably because PGI slowly realized that the TT values and their relationships are not suitable for an FPS. Those are completely different genres with vastly different needs and mechanics.

In my opinion they should even stop to preserve TT-values for equipment weight and slots to gain really powerful possibilities for balancing.

Edited by Daggett, 03 November 2017 - 01:29 AM.

[Paigan]

El Bandito, on 02 November 2017 - 09:46 PM, said:

Why do you want SNPPC (a seldom seen weapon) to be even worse? Cause that's all you are suggesting.

You probably focus on the numbers in Cato's suggestion to get to such a quick, short and harsh verdict. Maybe they need indeed tweaking, but the numbers are not necessarily his point.

His point is this:

Cato Zilks, on 02 November 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

[...]
Translation: the damage is supposed to stay constant for a ways, then fall off real fast. PGI, you did the opposite. Why? We don't need Snubs poking out to 600m. That is not their point.
[...]

It should be a weapon with relatively "short" maximum range (whatever "short" is. Don't fixate on that) but with a relatively long optimal range inside that maximum range.

Maybe something like shorter range, but with higher heat efficiency than normal PPCs have.
That would NOT make the weapon worse. It would make it better.
If you want range, you can still use the other PPCs.
But heat efficiency is crucial in MWO.

I can only appeal to not hurl oneself into critizing the first problematic value one reads in a suggestion, but to think it through on a content level to grasp and discuss the actual point.

I think Cato has a pretty valid point in principle. Discussing numbers is a secondary thing to that.

Edited by Paigan, 03 November 2017 - 02:07 AM.

[El Bandito]

Paigan, on 03 November 2017 - 01:57 AM, said:

I think Cato has a pretty valid point in principle. Discussing numbers is a secondary thing to that.

Fine. But I haven't seen any good numbers, yet.

[FupDup]

Cato Zilks, on 02 November 2017 - 10:12 PM, said:

Then don't make it splash and just lower the heat. Right now, it is a bad trade off.

Yeah, I'd suggest somewhere around 8.5 or even just 8 heat. It's fair relative to other PPCs because of having such a short optimal range.

[Sjorpha]

Just lower heat to 8 and give it a bit more optimal range (maybe 320m?) without increasing max range, it definitely needs a buff.

Normal IS PPC and ERPPCs needs a buff too since they are worse than cERPPC, and heavy PPC needs it's old 4s cooldown back.