196 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

Maybe make the warning reappear each login? Once is not enough and honestly I wouldn't mind.

[Ghogiel]

Yo OP. Spawn camping is a symptom not the issue.

What you will find in this thread, and all those like it, which are spawned every other day it seems, is probably load of people essentially saying "git gud" or "it's a TEAM game". Which translates to "go away".

Which you should probably just do like the vast majority of the player base has. It's the same tired **** we all listened to when we had a no MM + 8mans in the QP queue. It's exactly the same and amounts to saying **** tier competition to farm all day is fine for a "competitive" mode under a caveat "no holds bared tacticool leet mode" and "well we warned them..".

It needs sorting via MMing or better> zero solo players in FP matches against groups. Fact is PGI has dangled the MC and mech bay rewards from the LPs out there to temp PUGs into the mode to get farmed by actual design. Saying pugs should play the mode like this or do that is the curtain of BS people want to hide behind to continue the charade of "much competitive wow" while farming an influx noobs or permabads that have no other option to earn those rewards through regular play. I bet you more than half the PUGs would cease playing FW if they earnt LPs in QP.

removing pugs playing against groups is the only step to address the issue. I would also suggest MMing obviously, but that's probably not going to do much when the values are releasing in about the same waiting time as a normal match is made anyway.

Then maybe address the shambles of the actual meta, ie try making it skill based and not spam based and see if that makes a difference. or not. At this point comp units left it, the big spam units left it or broke up. most of the player base has left it generally. Anything they do can't really hurt it all that much at this point.

[MischiefSC]

Ghogiel, on 06 November 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

Yo OP. Spawn camping is a symptom not the issue.

What you will find in this thread, and all those like it, which are spawned every other day it seems, is probably load of people essentially saying "git gud" or "it's a TEAM game". Which translates to "go away".

Which you should probably just do like the vast majority of the player base has. It's the same tired **** we all listened to when we had a no MM + 8mans in the QP queue. It's exactly the same and amounts to saying **** tier competition to farm all day is fine for a "competitive" mode under a caveat "no holds bared tacticool leet mode" and "well we warned them..".

It needs sorting via MMing or better> zero solo players in FP matches against groups. Fact is PGI has dangled the MC and mech bay rewards from the LPs out there to temp PUGs into the mode to get farmed by actual design. Saying pugs should play the mode like this or do that is the curtain of BS people want to hide behind to continue the charade of "much competitive wow" while farming an influx noobs or permabads that have no other option to earn those rewards through regular play. I bet you more than half the PUGs would cease playing FW if they earnt LPs in QP.

removing pugs playing against groups is the only step to address the issue. I would also suggest MMing obviously, but that's probably not going to do much when the values are releasing in about the same waiting time as a normal match is made anyway.

Then maybe address the shambles of the actual meta, ie try making it skill based and not spam based and see if that makes a difference. or not. At this point comp units left it, the big spam units left it or broke up. most of the player base has left it generally. Anything they do can't really hurt it all that much at this point.

Comp units left in FW 1. Because it's not really a comp environment. Not sure who would say otherwise.

It is however a teamwork environment - or more to the point an environment where teamwork is a much, much bigger factor thanks to respawns. Would be better to say that teamwork has more value in FW than it does in pug or even group queue.

Rather than ban pugs completely I'd rather have a strict requirement to pug in FW. I've done it tons and enjoy it. I know a lot of people who do so. However no question they're the exception now rather than the rule.

Don't kid yourself though. People quit FW not because of MM but because it's little more than QP with respawns and no MM. The content that people were excited for in FW never showed up. Then LT, then 1 Bukkit making factions irrelevant. That killed FW. We all knew there was no MM. There's no real MM in group queue. There's barely a MM in QP. For FW though there's people who pug and plug into the teams they drop with. That's how most of us got the address of everyones TS who plays FW; you pug, you end up with a team, you do well, next time maybe just group up with them for a bit.

[Grus]

Strange Love, on 05 November 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

i understand that mwol is team based game but right now the lobby for faction play is very unbalanced.
also the way that group leaders use friends list window to let them see who is in a group\lobby\deployed - make it easy to a lot of players to avoid real fights vs other strong team and help them drop vs easy teams with random players on it.
come on we all see that and do that cra$# every day :
when you playing with group vs new players or pugs team you don't need spacial calls or tactics to kill them and win , but still 90%of groups will do that - will have some one to call the match and then boom .. we all in drop zone farming easy new players(i also do that and i feel lame when it happen) but i need to say team!!! and work with others..
just wish we had better real interesting fights.or you know what? at least balanced not 12 men vs poor souls
so maybe pgi just make extra lobby same we have in quick play - solo / group (freedom to choose , its a game !)

and about your brain dmg .. first i hope you get better soon so here few tips maybe help you understand the money making in basic gaming:(to help game live longer)

1. its a game and the main point in gaming its - Have fun in your free time - right now new players\solo not having fun !!
2. no fun - no players - if no players no one buy - no one buy - pgi die ! - if pgi die - mechwarrior die (and we love this game)
3. to have fun in gaming it means:
freedom to choose! and not been forced to play by the developers wish or bad managed for too long - and if players will continue do the same things over and over again they get bored and stop play and at the end it will kill the game.

I'm sure someone has posted a photo of the "warning" when you go for FP the first time. I think we need to add a live on to the end of it.

"Take heed new adventurer and be warned! Beyond these gate you will need strong allies. For in these lands, there be dragons"

Maybe they'll catch on....

[Grus]

It's like in Everquest when you buff the crap out of a new player and they go all "I'M INVINCABLE!!" And go run in a high level zone and then the buffs ware off... next thing they are calling a necro to summon their body...

Edited by Grus, 06 November 2017 - 02:22 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Grus, on 06 November 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

It's like in Everquest when you buff the crap out of a new player and they go all "I'M INVINCABLE!!" And go run in a high level zone and then the buffs ware off... next thing they are calling a necro to summon their body...

Or a make up raid with no stats, 2 clerics and a paladin and everyone else is a mage/rogue/warrior and one enchanter.... hehehehe.. ohh, and everyone wearing group armor from 3 expansions ago....... then WTF no heal rotation?!?!

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 06 November 2017 - 03:09 PM.

[naterist]

If you want to end farming, you got 2 options.

1)seperate farmers and farmees.
Or
2)improve the new player experience, so that they can id what the tried and true builds and associated playstyles are easily, without trial and error or google being required.

As of now, pgi doesnt do #1 in fw, and they relie on the community to do option 2 for them (which is kinda ****** of them.)

[Jun Watarase]

Joining a unit/group by itself wont guarantee you can beat top 12 man teams. It doesnt even guarantee you can beat pugs.

Perfect example :

[redacted]

The only guaranteed way to not get clubbed is to be a top player AND only drop with 11 other top players. Thats a pretty steep requirement.

Edited by McValium, 06 November 2017 - 10:07 PM.
no unmodified screenshots, please scratch the names

[MischiefSC]

naterist, on 06 November 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:

If you want to end farming, you got 2 options.

1)seperate farmers and farmees.
Or
2)improve the new player experience, so that they can id what the tried and true builds and associated playstyles are easily, without trial and error or google being required.

As of now, pgi doesnt do #1 in fw, and they relie on the community to do option 2 for them (which is kinda ****** of them.)

1 can't happen because farmees are just bads and bads are all relative. That's the biggest illusion here; the idea that pug matches are never rolls. Have you never played QP? The only reason you don't see spawn camping every other match in QP is... there's no respawns. If there was it would happen constantly. I can't count how many 12-1 matches I've had today in QP.

2 would really, really help but what it needs is better tools to help new players get into connection with people who can help them.

[MischiefSC]

Jun Watarase, on 06 November 2017 - 06:36 PM, said:

Joining a unit/group by itself wont guarantee you can beat top 12 man teams. It doesnt even guarantee you can beat pugs.

Perfect example :

[redacted]

The only guaranteed way to not get clubbed is to be a top player AND only drop with 11 other top players. Thats a pretty steep requirement.

So by clubbed you mean... lose?

I guess that's correct. The best way to reduce (but never eliminate) losing matches is to play in a 12 man with excellent players. Still no guarantee, KCom has the best W/L going and still only wins a bit over 9 out of 10 matches. We also regularly play with non-members, a full 12 KCom is very uncommon. Usually we've got others with us of varying skill.

However the need to always equate losing with 'clubbing' is part of your issue. Everyone loses. That's how you learn. Not learning from losing is what keeps people from learning how to win. Being in a group helps but you're right - it's never a guarantee. You win some you lose some, you play, you try to improve. That's it.

Edited by McValium, 06 November 2017 - 10:07 PM.
quote cleanup

[TWIAFU]

Grus, on 06 November 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

I'm sure someone has posted a photo of the "warning" when you go for FP the first time. I think we need to add a live on to the end of it.

"Take heed new adventurer and be warned! Beyond these gate you will need strong allies. For in these lands, there be dragons"

Maybe they'll catch on....

That assumes that actually read it.

They don't.

naterist, on 06 November 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:

If you want to end farming, you got 2 options.

1)seperate farmers and farmees.
Or
2)improve the new player experience, so that they can id what the tried and true builds and associated playstyles are easily, without trial and error or google being required.

As of now, pgi doesnt do #1 in fw, and they relie on the community to do option 2 for them (which is kinda ****** of them.)

Figured Join a Group would be on the list.

At least use (Listen or talk) VOIP would get an honorable mention....

But those are things the players can do themselves to improve gameplay and sadly that is to hard so nannystate, PGI, has to do it for them.

Jun Watarase, on 06 November 2017 - 06:36 PM, said:

Joining a unit/group by itself wont guarantee you can beat top 12 man teams. It doesnt even guarantee you can beat pugs.

Perfect example :

[redacted]

The only guaranteed way to not get clubbed is to be a top player AND only drop with 11 other top players. Thats a pretty steep requirement.

It does guarantee a far better game experience then playing alone with 11 other rambo's think they are gods gift to MWO.

Being a top 12man does not guarantee you beat another top 12man either.

Being part of a team does mean you will do better in a teamwork environment.

[ANOM O MECH]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 05 November 2017 - 04:16 PM, said:

This advice is really worth it's own thread....it's really far less intimidating than it might initially seem. As our units recruiting officer I can say we are far, far more likely to take a Pilot who might be a little below what we are really looking for (performance-wise) if he is a nice guy, listens and is willing to learn/improve....than we are a guy who is a pain to deal with and great numbers.

I am curious...how do you rate (performance-wise) for objective rushing?

[Jman5]

Kin3ticX, on 04 November 2017 - 07:44 AM, said:

10 second godmode after spawn

MischiefSC, on 04 November 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

So if I camp my own spawn, every time I die I get 3 alphas for free at the enemy who can't shoot back?

The best option. Would be letting players pick which spawn. To drop in so you can easily shuffle if a spawn is overrun. Buffing DZs just prompts people to camp their DZ.

You just have to disable god mode as soon as the player fires his guns. Personally, I'd shorten it to 5 seconds. Just enough time to drop, look around, and move without giving him time to be invulnerable outside the spawn zone.

Anyway, the two ideas are not mutually exclusive. You could have an anti spawn-camping shield AND give players the ability to more easily pick their drop zone.

I also think they should angle the walls around the dropzones inward so campers can't hide from dropship fire.

Edited by Jman5, 07 November 2017 - 08:53 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Nightbird, on 06 November 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

Maybe make the warning reappear each login? Once is not enough and honestly I wouldn't mind.

Make it full screen with a timer so it can't be closed until after X seconds.

[MischiefSC]

The issue with dropzone defenses is psychological. For someone who is already, well, at the risk of offending people, inherently fearful and timid it creates an illusion of protection/support/defense that they will inherently cling to even if doing so actually just ensures their defeat.

Spawn camping doesn't happen because groups vs pugs. Last night KCom had a drop where it was like a 8 or 10man of us vs a 4man and some pugs on the other side. The other side pushed HARD, every single wave. The match was one of the closest we've had in a long time against anything but a 12man and we were never even close to their DZ.

Spawn camping happens because aggression > timidity/passivity. Even a team that plays the long range game is still playing aggressively - they are setting up firing lines and lanes and they are constantly positioning to shoot the other team. They are driving initiative. Players who play from the mindset of 'how can I not get shot' instead of 'how can I best shoot the enemy' are going to lose the majority of the time.

The game mechanics need to drive aggressive behavior not passive/timid behavior. By just having it automatically shuffle your DZ based on which one has the least enemies near it you help protect people from getting spawn camped without giving them any reason to want to stay near their spawn. Any sort of protection/support you add to a spawn just makes hiding in the spawn more appealing to people who are already looking for ways to hide.

[-Quiet-]

how about if enemy in Drop zone he wil sufer Heat penalty effect similar to the one when we stand in Lava

[Holy Jackson]

If there is drop zone protection, the organized units would probably just bring LRMs and UAVs on the renforcement wave and pound you to dust in your spawn from outside the walls.

passive play always loses vs organized offence. you cant change that.

[Ghogiel]

MischiefSC, on 06 November 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

Don't kid yourself though. People quit FW not because of MM but because it's little more than QP with respawns and no MM. The content that people were excited for in FW never showed up. Then LT, then 1 Bukkit making factions irrelevant. That killed FW. We all knew there was no MM. There's no real MM in group queue. There's barely a MM in QP. For FW though there's people who pug and plug into the teams they drop with. That's how most of us got the address of everyones TS who plays FW; you pug, you end up with a team, you do well, next time maybe just group up with them for a bit.

You are doing mental gynmastics here. People don't play FW is because they have a better play experience in QP> they are actually playing that instead. If FW is just QP with respawns and better rewards but no MMer like you say, what is making it so off putting> imo it's because it is the least competitive free mode in MWO because the matches are probably more often worse than group queue match ups, your opinion it's some stuff most of the player base probably has no clue or care about and never materialised or was in the game ever. Yeah and I'm the one kidding myself.

Edited by Ghogiel, 07 November 2017 - 01:29 PM.

[Willard Phule]

For what it's worth...."Faction Warfare" never became what it was promised to be. Keep that in mind. The mechanics of setting up what they tried to set up was beyond them. It will NEVER be what it was originally promised to become. For "PUGs," all it will ever be is a mode where you get 3 respawns and the chance to win more stuff and cbills than in Quick Play. Not that this is a bad thing, it just needs to be integrated as "general manpower" towards goals and let the guys that give a damn do the map plotting.

The "problem" with all this "farming" is because of the fact that an organized, experienced team is always...ALWAYS...going to treat a new player (or someone that is incapable of achieving a level of skill beyond that) like it's a part of the scenery. They're SUPPOSED to. So, the issue isn't with the people playing the mode.

I've seen groups play against each other. Unless one group is dismally screwed up, they rarely end up farming each other the way PUGs get farmed. I've seen that, too. That same imbalance issue happens in pure PUG matches as well. Common sense would tell you that the issue with Groups farming PUGs is because they're allowed to compete together. Thing is, there's not enough population for them to put any controls on at all unless there's an event.

They can't afford to even make the tutorial mandatory before playing because it would drive away the already hemmorhaging population. Separating Groups and PUGs is out of the question. And even if there WERE enough population to justify a matchmaker that separates based on some ridiculous equation, it's beyond PGI's ability to implement. If you don't believe me, just look at the Quick Play queue.

My suggestion to the OP is to look at it like this....when you run into a group, winning would be nice, but ultimately you're just OPFOR for the other team to practice on. Doesn't mean you can't practice, too, and make some decent cbills in the process. Practice staying with your lance, practice focusing fire. Don't make it easy for the other guys, take as many with you as you can. May not be the preferred way of thinking, but it's practical.

[PFC Carsten]

Willard Phule, on 07 November 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

Thing is, there's not enough population for them to put any controls on at all unless there's an event.

They can't afford to even make the tutorial mandatory before playing because it would drive away the already hemmorhaging population. Separating Groups and PUGs is out of the question. And even if there WERE enough population to justify a matchmaker that separates based on some ridiculous equation, it's beyond PGI's ability to implement.

Why do you say that? There are already more than 16000 people who have played at least 10 matches in the first eight days of this month: https://mwomercs.com...page=806&type=0

And yes, it says quickplay. But those are MWO players nonetheless. Imagine if a decent percentage could be motivated to form up into units of at least 12 men and would be allowed into FaP!