126 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

Why not 2AC10, 2snubs? If poptarting can do 2AC10, 3LPPC to have extra tonnage for JJs and ECM.

[Gas Guzzler]

2 10s and snubs might work. Only 2 E hardpoints though. Another variant could also do 2 HPPCs and a UAC10. That might require an XL though

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 10 November 2017 - 09:30 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 10 November 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

It has nothing to do with Metalords, it has to do with PGI's arbitrary scaling methods
It's certainly not standard for all materials to have the same density

Do weapon boxes count as Geo?
Dynamic weapons?
Catapult missile boxes count as Density?
Madcat Mk2s or Timby missile boxes? What happens when you remove them?



Some weapon geometry is MASSIVE, and it kinda throws the whole mass density scale off...let alone nerfing the weakest mechs in the game for no reason (without promised compensation)

yes we were much better off before when we had assault sized mediums, smurf sized lights, etc.

[Nightbird]

Ops, well a snub and a LPPC is ok as well. HPPC is too tempting to a light pilot

[process]

In my mind the Thanatos should be a chunky fellow, even if it wants to be smaller for balance. Like I wish they did for the Catapult, I think it's worth inflating its size even if it means a more robust set of armor/structure quirks.

[Armored Yokai]

the Thanny looks nice overall, the cockpit too curvy imho.

[Captain Polux]

Super stoked for this monster even if it turns out to be garbage.

[Y E O N N E]

Sjorpha, on 10 November 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

Well, it can dual goose poptart for 0 heat and up that alpha with lasers when fighting on ground, I'd say it's pretty solidly going to beat at least the marauder for poptarting.

Grasshopper poptart? 2HPPC? never really tried it tbh.

While running 64.8 kph for only 30 damage. How many Night Gyr's do you see running around with only dual gauss?

[Nema Nabojiv]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 November 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

While running 64.8 kph for only 30 damage. How many Night Gyr's do you see running around with only dual gauss?

You dont see any night gyrs running at all. You see them either standing or crawling while other assaults prancing around in joy and shooting them in the back.

Sorry, continue please.

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 November 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

2 10s and snubs might work. Only 2 E hardpoints though. Another variant could also do 2 HPPCs and a UAC10. That might require an XL though

2x HPPC + 1x AC/10 with 40 rounds can be squeezed onto Marauder using a 280 LFE featuring 3x JJ and 14x DHS. Thanatos can do it, you just swap the ballistic into the arm and the HPPCs into the torso on the TNS-4P. I wouldn't bother with a UAC/10 there, it's hot enough already.

[Bogus]

Course it's a fat *******, thanny was always a fat *******. I totally agree that it won't play well, but that makes it just another of the many designs poorly suited for Battletech COD Edition.

[Scout Derek]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 November 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

I know you are. Did you not see the 8 slots and 15 tons I left open for the second Gauss?

Can't say I have. I quickly looked last night.

[Y E O N N E]

Pariah Devalis, on 10 November 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

How many JJ can it fit? If the answer is 4, than that is a factually incorrect statement. With 4 JJ it gets off the ground just as well as the Gyr. Now, can it deploy the same sort of firepower? Probably not. However, 2x ERPPC and ECM should be a cakewalk.

Uh, no. What you just wrote is the false statement, or at best poorly informed.

You can fit 4 JJs on a Marauder or a Grasshopper, and the lack of comparable firepower is exactly what makes any of the three not compete with the Night Gyr.

And I'm not going to waste a 75 ton 'Mech on twin IS ERPPC spam. It doesn't get enough of a heat dissipation boost over lighter 'Mechs to be worth it.

[Pariah Devalis]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 November 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

Uh, no. What you just wrote is the false statement, or at best poorly informed.

You can fit 4 JJs on a Marauder or a Grasshopper, and the lack of comparable firepower is exactly what makes any of the three not compete with the Night Gyr.

And I'm not going to waste a 75 ton 'Mech on twin IS ERPPC spam. It doesn't get enough of a heat dissipation boost over lighter 'Mechs to be worth it.

Well, let's look at it:

Four JJ on a 75 ton mech, clan or IS, gets the same total lifting power. From a jump jet capability standpoint, no. I am not incorrect. They are, in fact, dead even in their capability to actually get off the ground, gain sufficient height, release, shoot, and hit the ground behind cover again.

From a firepower perspective, the NTG can fit 2 gauss and 1 ERPPC, which is probably superior firepower to what the Thanny can do. Is it possible to fit 2 GR and 1 Light PPC? Honestly asking, as I can barely get it to fit into a CTF-3D in smurfy, but have not done the numbers in a 75 ton mech. If so, the damage, pinpoint, is fairly similar. Within, what, 5 points of damage - pinpoint? However, the NTG cannot take ECM, which helps with the initial breach of cover, so you are trading a bit of firepower for a we bit of stealth. I'd call that more than fair.

So, no. I don't believe I am factually incorrect. As an overall package, it's pretty similar. It gets off the ground in the same space of time for the same total height, loses 5 practical damage (and a negligible 2.5/2.5 splash on components you don't intend to hit, anyways), but gains ECM's benefits.

Edit:

That said, it does need to use an XL to get there, and that does degrade its survivability relative to the NTG. However, counterpoint to that is that the entire idea of poptarting is to limit your exposure time. This, in turn, helps to cover any deficiencies in the survivability of the mech.

I'd also wager the Thanny won't handle like a brick covered in molasses, unlike the Gyr, so that is always nice.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 10 November 2017 - 11:51 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Pariah Devalis, on 10 November 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

So, no. I don't believe I am factually incorrect. As an overall package, it's pretty similar. It gets off the ground in the same space of time for the same total height, loses 5 practical damage (and a negligible 2.5/2.5 splash on components you don't intend to hit, anyways), but gains ECM's benefits.

Lets look at what it takes to bring equivalent pinpoint firepower.

#NotaNightGyr

It doesn't even have the 15 DHS that the Night Gyr has that allows it to alpha through ghost heat a couple times. And that speed.... LOL

And a Light PPC only travels 1200 m/s which doesn't sync with Gauss as well as 1500 m/s cER PPCs, and it also doesn't have the range, or the ability to fire point blank.

OH, AND it has the Gauss in the shoulders which means those little machine gun lights will have a field day instantly blowing up that juicy XL engine.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 10 November 2017 - 11:54 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Pariah Devalis, on 10 November 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

I'd also wager the Thanny won't handle like a brick covered in molasses, unlike the Gyr, so that is always nice.

17.7 Accel agility, so yeah that's better than the Gyr, but still not great.

[Asmerak]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 November 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

17.7 Accel agility, so yeah that's better than the Gyr, but still not great.

It's the base agility of 75-tonners except the two variants that get agility quirks (4S, Hangover), so it's average vs. Night Gyr's nerfed agility.

[Gas Guzzler]

Asmerak, on 10 November 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:

It's the base agility of 75-tonners except the two variants that get agility quirks (4S, Hangover), so it's average vs. Night Gyr's nerfed agility.

Compare to Marauder and Onion

[Y E O N N E]

Pariah Devalis, on 10 November 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

So, no. I don't believe I am factually incorrect. As an overall package, it's pretty similar. It gets off the ground in the same space of time for the same total height, loses 5 practical damage (and a negligible 2.5/2.5 splash on components you don't intend to hit, anyways), but gains ECM's benefits.

Belief doesn't factor into it. You are, empirically, incorrect.

We have, to build the way you describe:

Explosive XL (with explosive Gauss) or sub-300 engine.
Widely spaced weapons
Zero extra heatsinks
5 less damage
Slower PPC projectle
Shorter-ranged PPC projectile
Minimum ranged PPC projectile
And geometry that we know is going to be awful via experience with similarly shaped 'Mechs.

All that just to get ECM, which is a tertiary nice-to-have item that is often just as much of a hindrance as it is a benefit thanks to the Skill Tree? Please.

And aside from dual-gauss, the capabilities of the Thanatos have existed on the Marauder 5M for almost two years now. The 5M was garbage at pop-tarting compared to the Night Gyr and it still is. It's hotter, has worse range, and often slower to boot. Yay, small victories by not handling like an Assault...because it doesn't feature Assault-grade firepower.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 10 November 2017 - 01:16 PM.

[Asmerak]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 November 2017 - 12:18 PM, said:

Compare to Marauder and Onion

I'm saying it has the normal, base agility for 75 tons. The Orion is identical, and the Marauder has large agility quirks across the board.