125 replies to this topic

[Tlords]

Right now, with few exceptions assaults Mechs do not hit above the weight of heavies. Assaults are slow. Assaults are large and easy to hit. Assaults do not have the armor to make up for their lack of agility and speed in a game where 60-90pt alphas are common. I want to see this change.

I want to see an Atlas brawling four mechs as long as a locust does running around between the same four mechs. I want to see the Direwolf feared again. I want to see an Atlas and think to myself... omg that's going to be hard to put down. Assaults need some love.

I have my own ideas on how this can be done. More structure and more armor quirks. Changing the survival tree to make the percentages for armor and structure nodes equal for all weight classes. As well as a few others...

I admit all mechs need some love. Assaults should be feared. Assaults lack of speed should be made up by their ability to soak damage.

What are your thoughts on how to do this?

Edited by Tlords, 13 November 2017 - 09:07 PM.

[N0ni]

The problem isn't really that assaults aren't tanky enough, it's that once someone on your team or enemy team sees one they focus fire to bring it down, so they don't have to deal with its firepower later as it closes the gap. In which, explains why one shouldn't tank in an assault alone.

[SteelMantis]

Tlords, on 13 November 2017 - 09:05 PM, said:

I want to see an Atlas brawling four mechs as long as a locust does running around between the same four mechs.

While at the same time doing much more damage than the Locust?

I think assaults are fine. I mostly pilot assaults in QP and do fine. The Atlas, Direwolf and most older mechs are not great but that is true across weight classes, many of the older chassis are not as good as they once were with a more limited pool of mechs to choose from.

[Scout Derek]

N0ni, on 13 November 2017 - 09:16 PM, said:

The problem isn't really that assaults aren't tanky enough, it's that once someone on your team or enemy team sees one they focus fire to bring it down, so they don't have to deal with its firepower later as it closes the gap. In which, explains why one shouldn't tank in an assault alone.

Even then alot of mechs have so much firepower that three alphas of their weapons can literally take them down. rediculous.

[BrunoSSace]

In most QP, Assults are always called primary. Then its Heavies and it works it way down the ladder for the threat level. I have never heard anyone call a Locust a primary, when it was standing next to an atlas. If they did, then we know what team would of won that engagement.

[Tlords]

BrunoSSace, on 13 November 2017 - 09:56 PM, said:

In most QP, Assults are always called primary. Then its Heavies and it works it way down the ladder for the threat level. I have never heard anyone call a Locust a primary, when it was standing next to an atlas. If they did, then we know what team would of won that engagement.

I agree as it should be.

Now for a four on one scenario. Put a pilot in an atlas against four mechs. Put a pilot in a locust against the same four mechs. With exception of a streak boat being around and a lucky shot on the light... most pilots will live longer in the locust. I want the assault to live at least as long as the locust.

[Troa Barton]

Yes to everything. Assaults used to be feared, an Atlas was a big problem, brawling was far more common when there was an Atlas to lead the way.

Now one or two mechs can strip even the mighty Annihilator in seconds. Had my side torso one shot before I could even react despite full survival skills.

All assaults are now are slow heavies to farm damage on and people wonder why they don't push.

Clan and Inner Sphere alike need to be tankier respectively, and a lot tankier at that.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

MWO's doubled armor values already benefit assaults far more than any other weight class. Even with a lower multiplier, armor nodes on the skill tree also benefit assaults more because they start with a higher value to multiply.

A light with 2x TT armor values still cannot survive a customized assault 'Mech hitting it with 60-90 points of damage. That's an instagib if it hits, even in the CT.

An assault, in contrast, can simply laugh off the 20-40 points of damage the light 'Mech is capable of, where in TT that would have been a powerful blow even to a 100-tonner. In MWO, a 100-tonner can carry around 120 points of CT armor even before quirks if it frontloads.

Thus, the assault loses none of its lethality (except against heavies and other assaults), while the light 'Mech is already only 50% as effective as it would be with stock armor values against any other 'Mech including other lights. Exactly how much tankier do you think assaults ought to be? At what point do you have to concede that what you actually want is for light 'Mechs to not be viable anymore?

[JediPanther]

I think a few assaults like the atlas need a lot of torso speed and arm armor buffs. If it has to be slow moving it should be able to at least let an arm or two get shot off since most of its main fire power are torso mounted. All the ranged alphas ct mechs like the atlas in 2-3 alphas.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Vomit alphas are just too high, especially clan ones. Heavy lasers' long duration is meaningless when your target is a moleass slow assault with barn-size hitboxes and slow twisting. It hardly matters when your target is a typical heavy or a slow med.

[LowSubmarino]

Are you kidding me.

After skill tree and massive increase in TTK, theres assaults that are basically immortal. The annihilator wont die. No matter what you punch it with. The dmg that thing can absorb is obscene.

I think it can almost take as much dmg as the escort bot Atlas. Maybe not as much. But its reaching towards that level.

I dont know how long you have been playing. But right now, mechs are sturdier, last longer, can take way more dmg that ever before.

Give ppl even more armor and structure or make weapons weaker or with more cooldown and it will start to get pathetic. Nobody would ever create weapon systems, that simply do not have any impact whatsoever. It is already quite laughable, that ppcs or gauss arent scary at all. You can absorb multiple shots even in lighter mechs. Someting, that simply wasnt ever the case in any book I read.

The constant whining has turned sniping into a niche, not very effective role, specially with mwos arcade style, nascaring style. Before sniping was risky but highly profitable and very effective.

Haha damn...really cant believe that all of that insane survivability boost ist still not enough for some ppl. Honestly. How long do you think a metal man should last vs heavy weapons? Where did ppl ever read, that mechs are immortal gods that simply wont die.

Read the books ppl

I never even care about lore and only about fun, awesome gameplay.

But how many of you ppl actually read books?

Do it.

Youll get a very, very different picture of how mech combat really looked like.

It was/is ruthless, totally unfair, you die quickly and your mech wont take even half or anywhere near the dmg we have here in whiney warrior online.

Stop whining. Stop destroying sniping, immersion and great gameplay by constantly whining weapons are too strong or mechs too weak.

All of you that did that over the years.....you damaged the gameplay significantly already. Turning it into a blind, arcade nascar race each game. Even the worst players can just run over open fields and - nowadays - often even survive even though thousands of missiles pepper them.

Why do you ppl want to play a babys and kiddies game which is notoriously user friendlich and very, very forgiving.

Make it hard. Make it ruthless. Give me real combat.

This is already way too vanilla. I would make it 1000 times harder.

Mechs get hit with heavy weapons and they die much, much faster.

And id reintroduce a very ruthless rearming and repairing and give each mech a battle value. And playing bad, dying, not doing dmg, not getting assists, just melting with no effect in high tier mechs....oh.....oh, id make that very expensive. A mans game. Not this baby nonsense.

[Snazzy Dragon]

It's not so much making them more survivable so much as making the terrible assaults better in general and taking the powerhouses down a notch somehow that doesn't completely ruin a weapons system or weight class.

[Wolfways]

Speaking as a non-meta player...

The problem is that assaults are the easiest to kill because their only real armour is the ct because they are so slow. Other classes can spread damage easier or even just disengage from the fight if they're fast enough. It's hard to get out the same damage as a brawler light mech when you are the enemies main focus and you have way less survivability than a light.
If there were decent, realistic open area maps it would be different, but in MWO's small arenas nipping in and out of cover is the playstyle and speed is more important than armour.

Honestly though, if something was buffed I'd rather they increased internals instead of armour. It would be nice to take damage to systems and be ripped apart instead of just getting shot and you're dead or half your mech is gone.

[LowSubmarino]

Snazzy Dragon, on 14 November 2017 - 03:12 AM, said:

It's not so much making them more survivable so much as making the terrible assaults better in general and taking the powerhouses down a notch somehow that doesn't completely ruin a weapons system or weight class.

thats exactly the mentality that kills mwo. Has been killing it slowly.

You cannot standardize mechs and make them all equally viable. Some are very good in terms of tech and design, hitboxes or combination of eg. masc, ecm, speed or other variables.

That very mindeset to try and make all mechs kinda good and competitive, is bad.

Instead, it is much better, to actually appreciate the fact, that mechs arent the same and some mechs are very strong. Others arent.

Instead, go the complete opposite direction.

Winning or playing well in much weaker mechs, should be be rewarded. Give players a areal, tangible incentive to play a much wider range of mechs, even the weaker once. By giving them prestige and rewards or much less rearming repairing costs when fielding weaker chassis.

But thats sadly not the route mwo players or the devs wanne go.

They go the direction to whine about how weak or too strong some mechs are and constantly, hysterically demand a fix or nerf for everything. Quite pathetic.

Thats not a good way to handle inherent and very natural differences in terms of generel prowess or combat value of mechs. They try to counter that. Instead of making it a strength.

I would have handled it completly the other way.

No.

Stop trying to equalize all mechs or balance them all the time.

Weird and random distribution of buffs/quircks is the consequence. And not even the devs will be able to say with any certainty, of a 5 % energy buff or range buff or mobility buff will actually make a mech competitive compared to other mechs with better design and hardpoints. Its just a random, weird exception that follows no real laws are a deeper, transparent system.

They are still trying to bandage this inherent dysbalance. Not only with individual mechs but with the inherent dysbalance of clan vs IS.

As I said.Thats not the way to handle such unique and actually great differences. They went and still go the wrong way with all of that. Its quite easy to understand.

Sadly. the community or devs dont see that.

Make bad choices over and over again.

You still go in that direction. A kazillion ppl before you said 'make this mech stronger and that weaker'. Thats basically all they ever demand.Never seeing the greater picture and finding an ultimate, satisfying, fun, encouraging and immersive solution.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

[Paigan]

N0ni, on 13 November 2017 - 09:16 PM, said:

The problem isn't really that assaults aren't tanky enough, it's that once someone on your team or enemy team sees one they focus fire to bring it down, so they don't have to deal with its firepower later as it closes the gap. In which, explains why one shouldn't tank in an assault alone.

That and the experience that, for example DWF players seem particularily reluctant to torso twist or go back into cover when fired upon.
Every now and then, I have an enemy DWF that I 3-ERLL at long range into its CT, while he defiantly stares at me until he's dead. Similar with KDKs, but not as often. Hardly ever with Atlasses.
It really must be some kind of psychological thing: "Me be mighty DWF, me no have need to evade damage."


Assaults like that die like flies. No kidding.

Edited by Paigan, 14 November 2017 - 04:00 AM.

[Mole]

oneda, on 14 November 2017 - 03:33 AM, said:

thats exactly the mentality that kills mwo. Has been killing it slowly.

You cannot standardize mechs and make them all equally viable. Some are very good in terms of tech and design, hitboxes or combination of eg. masc, ecm, speed or other variables.

That very mindeset to try and make all mechs kinda good and competitive, is bad.

Instead, it is much better, to actually appreciate the fact, that mechs arent the same and some mechs are very strong. Others arent.

Instead, go the complete opposite direction.

Winning or playing well in much weaker mechs, should be be rewarded. Give players a areal, tangible incentive to play a much wider range of mechs, even the weaker once. By giving them prestige and rewards or much less rearming repairing costs when fielding weaker chassis.

But thats sadly not the route mwo players or the devs wanne go.

They go the direction to whine about how weak or too strong some mechs are and constantly, hysterically demand a fix or nerf for everything. Quite pathetic.

Thats not a good way to handle inherent and very natural differences in terms of generel prowess or combat value of mechs. They try to counter that. Instead of making it a strength.

I would have handled it completly the other way.

No.

Stop trying to equalize all mechs or balance them all the time.

Weird and random distribution of buffs/quircks is the consequence. And not even the devs will be able to say with any certainty, of a 5 % energy buff or range buff or mobility buff will actually make a mech competitive compared to other mechs with better design and hardpoints. Its just a random, weird exception that follows no real laws are a deeper, transparent system.

They are still trying to bandage this inherent dysbalance. Not only with individual mechs but with the inherent dysbalance of clan vs IS.

As I said.Thats not the way to handle such unique and actually great differences. They went and still go the wrong way with all of that. Its quite easy to understand.

Sadly. the community or devs dont see that.

Make bad choices over and over again.

You still go in that direction. A kazillion ppl before you said 'make this mech stronger and that weaker'. Thats basically all they ever demand.Never seeing the greater picture and finding an ultimate, satisfying, fun, encouraging and immersive solution.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

You seem to be suggesting something like Battle Value. As if PGI would do it right.

[Novakaine]

I used to be afraid of assaults in the early years.
Now I just tend to panic when I see a pack of light backshooters.
And that's just plain arse backwards.
Consequentially every mech should have a role.
Assaults seem to have none nowadays except cannon fodder.
Kinda like IS mechs huh?

[Paigan]

Novakaine, on 14 November 2017 - 04:42 AM, said:

I used to be afraid of assaults in the early years.
Now I just tend to panic when I see a pack of light backshooters.
And that's just plain arse backwards.
Consequentially every mech should have a role.
Assaults seem to have none nowadays except cannon fodder.
Kinda like IS mechs huh?

If you take the RIGHT assault (like speed of a heavy, laser vomit and HS like an assault with awesome hardpoints and hitboxes), it's still better than heavies .
Agreed on the role thing, though.

[Asym]

NO.
The entire skill tree fiasco is about extending the time it takes to kill assaults and other classes of mechs ! All of the weapons nerf's are designed to extend the time it takes to finish a match by makinbg them less deadly.... Why? To extend the buying window because you can't fix what PGI has taken and you get frustrated and buy something else. To slow down the number of matches: to extend the MM cycle in an overtaxed game engine in desparte need of replacement. (and, few if any major fixes because they know they need to replace it.)

This is a people problem, not a technology issue..... And, don't worry, Solaris is coming and 1x1 or 4x4 will test your brawling mettle and for the rest of us, we can't wait to read about the torrent of tears Solaris will create when brawlers face brawlers, mech to mech, bullet to bullet in a close, mostly open space ! I can't wait for the Grand Melee of assaults !

Edited by Asym, 14 November 2017 - 06:47 AM.

[Wolfways]

Novakaine, on 14 November 2017 - 04:42 AM, said:

I used to be afraid of assaults in the early years.
Now I just tend to panic when I see a pack of light backshooters.
And that's just plain arse backwards.
Consequentially every mech should have a role.
Assaults seem to have none nowadays except cannon fodder.

I agree

Quote

Kinda like IS mechs huh?

Up to a point.