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#121 MischiefSC

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 02:45 PM

I don't mind charge up removal from light Gauss and longer range and GH 3. Wouldn't bump it to 10 damage or anything else with that though.

I would also be good with giving it a faster cooldown so it's better up close too - that would be a weapon with a niche, a long range no heat ballistic you can push with if needed. Give it a DPS of 3.25 or so. Then it's useful. 2 LGauss and some lasers.

#122 Khobai

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 02:50 PM

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The point of charge-up on all those other games is to provide a drawback for the expected reward.


the point of chargeup is an intuitive means of selecting the level of charge you need for the weapon while providing the appropriate drawback for higher levels of charge.

the difference between that and gauss, is that gauss doesnt have different levels of charge. it only has one level of charge. so chargeup is purely used as an unintuitive form of punishment for the weapon.'

if gauss had several different levels of charge, that would be different, but thats not how it works. the chargeup mechanic is being used improperly.

for example if a PPC+capacitor could fire immediately for 10 damage at 10 heat or charge upto 5 seconds with each second of charge adding an additional 1 damage for 1 heat. That is proper use of the charge mechanic.

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2017 - 02:52 PM.


#123 Y E O N N E

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 02:52 PM

View PostKhobai, on 25 November 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:


the point of chargeup is an intuitive means of selecting the level of charge you need for the weapon while providing the appropriate drawback for higher levels of charge.


Hitting a button to cycle through those modes is just as intuitive; if they are building it into the fire mode of the weapon then it's purely to provide a drawback.

And we still have multiple weapons as a supplement to the Gauss. Only its top-level firing mode would be relevant regardless.

#124 Khobai

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 02:54 PM

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Hitting a button to cycle through those modes is just as intuitive; if they are building it into the fire mode of the weapon then it's purely to provide a drawback.


of course its to provide a drawback. more power comes at a cost.

but the key difference is you can fire the weapon uncharged or charge it and choose what level of charge you want while paying an appropriate cost in charge time.

gauss doesnt work like that. with gauss the chargeup mechanic is strictly punitive. you cant choose to snapfire a weaker gauss immediately or charge it up to do more damage if needed.

chargeup is supposed to give you variety and options for how to use a weapon. but the way its used for gauss only serves to stifle the weapon and punish you for using it. thats bad game mechanic usage.

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And we still have multiple weapons as a supplement to the Gauss. Only its top-level firing mode would be relevant regardless.


yeah but how long is that gonna last before gauss is linked to lasers for ghost heat?

they linked gauss with ppcs. theres no reason to think gauss and lasers wont be linked eventually too.

gauss + laser vomit is a major problem afterall.

im expecting a nice christmas surprise of large lasers, medium lasers, and gauss all getting linked together.

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2017 - 02:59 PM.


#125 The Basilisk

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 02:55 PM

View PostKhobai, on 25 November 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:


what variety? people dont use light gauss or heavy gauss. they barely use std gauss lol.

chargeup is a large part of why people DONT USE THEM and why we DONT HAVE variety.

if you want variety, then buff gauss, dont oppress it behind crappy mechanics that add nothing beneficial to the game.

there is zero benefit to gauss having chargeup.

the chargeup mechanic is being used completely wrong

chargeup as a mechanic should be used for variable charge weapons. Like if we had PPC capacitors that worked similar to megaman's arm cannon. thats an example of where chargeup should be employed.

in that situation theres an actual benefit to the chargeup mechanic because you can use it to choose the level of charge on the weapon. Fire a weaker shot immediately, or spend some heat to charge it up for a stronger shot. that is intuitive use of the chargeup mechanic.

thats how you use chargeup mechanics properly in a game. megaman got it right. MWO got it wrong.


Hmm sorry to break the news to you but YOU got almost everything completely wrong.
The charge up mechanic has nothing to do with any benefits or mechanik to use for any purpose but rather preventing the Gauss from beeing the completely hillarious OP weapon that invalidated everything else it was from the beginning.

At the beginning of the game there was no charge up mechanic and the extreme range of gauss was doubled and nobody used even gauss and ppc together. You just used dual gauss (there where only one or two mechs that could do this) and you where the one doing 8 kills before the enemy could figure out from where the fire came.
Gaussers justed hillpoked or cornerpoked fired and faded. No visible flash hardly a visible projectile and when you turned into the direction where the gauss came from there was nothing to see.

To aleviate this charge up was introduced. PPL whined a bit and those that could adapt where still suppream.
Then The hillarious doubled overrange was removed and gauss became pretty much what they are now.
A situational weapon for experts.

And now due to various nerfs clan weapons, other weapon buffs gauss became a liability.
If you would remove the chare up it would become the bane of all fast and light armored mechs.
Those remotely able to aim would get completely op with gauss.
Rather leave it aside and good ridance I realy do not know how to balance a weapon that does no heat and makes 15pp damage the moment you press the trigger when you are below 400m.

#126 Khobai

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 03:02 PM

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The charge up mechanic has nothing to do with any benefits or mechanik to use for any purpose but rather preventing the Gauss from beeing the completely hillarious OP weapon that invalidated everything else it was from the beginning.


but removing chargeup wouldnt suddenly make gauss OP like it was before. Because the game has changed significantly since chargeup was added.

you people are forgetting that the state of the game has changed. gauss isnt competing against the same weapons it used to.

its no longer gauss vs AC20 for example. yeah gauss without chargeup was way better than AC20. gauss was better at long range and nearly as good a short range.

but gauss vs UAC20 is a different story. gauss without chargeup is never going to beat a UAC20 at brawling. gauss just cant physically put out 40 damage in the same cooldown period that the UAC20 can.

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Rather leave it aside and good ridance I realy do not know how to balance a weapon that does no heat and makes 15pp damage the moment you press the trigger when you are below 400m.


the same way its always been balanced in every other MW game. by giving it a very long cooldown. that ensures that gauss users will always lose to more aggressive dps oriented builds.

gauss firing once every 5 seconds or so has always been ridiculous too. gauss should have much longer cooldown than that.

you could also give gauss a minimum range like its supposed to have... why enforce the min range for PPCs but not gauss? makes no sense. gauss should at least have linear damage dropoff within its min range.

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2017 - 03:11 PM.


#127 Y E O N N E

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 03:14 PM

View PostKhobai, on 25 November 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:


of course its to provide a drawback. more power comes at a cost.

but the key difference is you can fire the weapon uncharged or charge it and choose what level of charge you want while paying an appropriate cost in charge time.


I will keep repeating it: the key difference between those games and this one is that you have several other weapons on tap, here. The charge is here specifically to stop a snap-fire. It has nothing to do with limiting DPS or de-synchronizing PPCs, etc. and everything to do with forcing you to take longer on your exposure to spit out 15 heatless, long-range, fast-flying damage so other weapons have a chance to return.

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gauss doesnt work like that. with gauss the chargeup mechanic is strictly punitive. you cant choose to snapfire a weaker gauss immediately or charge it up to do more damage if needed.


Yes, it is purely punitive, because the only thing that makes Gauss worthwhile is the part that needs to be punished. The entire point of charge on any weapon in any game is to prevent you from snap-firing the top-level shot. This game included.

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chargeup is supposed to give you variety and options for how to use a weapon. but the way its used for gauss only serves to stifle the weapon and punish you for using it. thats bad game mechanic usage.


No, charge-up is supposed to just make sure that you can't instantly snap out your high-powered shot.

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yeah but how long is that gonna last before gauss is linked to lasers for ghost heat?

they linked gauss with ppcs. theres no reason to think gauss and lasers wont be linked eventually too.

gauss + laser vomit is a major problem afterall.


Clan Gauss + Laser vomit is a problem. IS Gauss + Laser vomit is no stronger than pure IS vomit, which is just moderate and runs sufficiently hot and slow that it self-balances with other play types within its own tech base.

That said, they don't necessarily need to link Gauss and lasers. What they need to do is tighten the Clan laser ghost heat groupings to the point where using a build that gives you more than ~60 points in a single shot is basically unfeasible, because that's where the IS limit is. That means Larges and Mediums all bundled into one group where the lowest common denominator rules. You could then even allow Clan ER Large/Large Pulse to have a grouping of 3, Mediums at 5. Heavy Larges stay at 2.

Dual Gauss builds would then net you 65 (5x cERML) or 66 damage (2x HLL/3x LPL). Single Gauss builds get to 50 with ERML, 51 with HLL. Ta da, we've successfully cut 30 points of damage off of Clan alphas, no linking of Gauss required, and that's exactly where the IS volleys fall. The only remaining problem then would be Clans now dedicating those tonnage savings to ridiculous numbers of heatsinks and/or way faster engines. Those...are actually less threatening than giant volleys because neither can directly maim a 'Mech.

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im expecting a nice christmas surprise of large lasers, medium lasers, and gauss all getting linked together.


If they do it to both factions, that would be broken and stupid.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 25 November 2017 - 03:15 PM.


#128 Khobai

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 03:20 PM

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No, charge-up is supposed to just make sure that you can't instantly snap out your high-powered shot.


but a sniper weapon is the type of weapon that most needs to be able to snapfire out high powered shots.

so not only is chargeup being used improperly but its counterintuitive to the role of gauss too.

gauss should be able to snapfire. but it should be balanced by other factors like super long cooldown, min range, limited ammo, etc...

other mechwarrior games didnt have a problem balancing gauss around long cooldowns. it worked fine for them.

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If they do it to both factions, that would be broken and stupid.


because pgi has never done anything broken or stupid before lol

I was right about them linking PPCs and gauss. I said it months ahead of time. and everyone said I was wrong and it would never happen.

this is so happening. link all the weapons together.

at the very least im expecting large and medium lasers to get linked. but I wouldnt be surprised if they threw gauss in there too just because.

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2017 - 03:26 PM.


#129 davoodoo

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 03:24 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 25 November 2017 - 03:14 PM, said:

I will keep repeating it: the key difference between those games and this one is that you have several other weapons on tap, here. The charge is here specifically to stop a snap-fire. It has nothing to do with limiting DPS or de-synchronizing PPCs, etc. and everything to do with forcing you to take longer on your exposure to spit out 15 heatless, long-range, fast-flying damage so other weapons have a chance to return.

********, you can precharge before exposing yourself, you even have skill nodes for that.

#130 Khobai

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 03:28 PM

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********, you can precharge before exposing yourself, you even have skill nodes for that.


yep you can basically snapfire gauss anyway

it would be better if they didnt make you jump through the stupid hoops of precharging it though

i use a macro that automatically charges the gauss and holds the charge when I press fire until I press fire a second time and then it fires the gauss.

makes it easier to snapfire with the awful chargeup mechanic.

but like I said the chargeup mechanic is useless. it doesnt even stop you from snapfiring lol. it literally has no purpose for existing. and it actually impedes the use of light gauss and heavy gauss.

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2017 - 03:41 PM.


#131 R Valentine

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 03:38 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 25 November 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:


That's actually you conflating the point with the execution.

The point of charge-up on all those other games is to provide a drawback for the expected reward. Because you can usually only use one weapon at a time and swapping takes valuable moments away in those extra-twitchy games, the concession is that they can bang out weak rounds so you aren't totally helpless. In MWO, we have multiple weapons. We almost always pair our Gauss rifles with lasers, and that is our equivalent to those weaker uncharged rounds.

The current Gauss does provide a suitable reward for its charge-up. The LGauss does not. If the LGauss could cycle faster, do more damage, etc., then it would be fine including the charge-up because it would have something on offer. Power-position with quad LGauss would be useful if they each did > 2.6 DPS (regardless of how that is obtained); it would be comparable to quad Gauss from something like a KDK-3. Niche, but useful. At that kind of DPS, just a pair alone would be analogous to massed ERLL fire in terms of output and could command a field over the long game.


Quad L-Gauss will never be useful if you can't fire all 4 at once. Relegated to 2, they only do 1 more damage than a single gauss rifle, and a single gauss rifle ways a lot less than 2 light. Even without charging or ghost heat, all 4 only do 32 damage. That's pitiful for the incredible amount of tonnage invested. COOL DOWN IS NOT GOING TO FIX THEM. They have to do more damage.

#132 Y E O N N E

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 04:20 PM

View PostKiran Yagami, on 25 November 2017 - 03:38 PM, said:


Quad L-Gauss will never be useful if you can't fire all 4 at once. Relegated to 2, they only do 1 more damage than a single gauss rifle, and a single gauss rifle ways a lot less than 2 light. Even without charging or ghost heat, all 4 only do 32 damage. That's pitiful for the incredible amount of tonnage invested. COOL DOWN IS NOT GOING TO FIX THEM. They have to do more damage.


Quad-Gauss was useful even not being able to fire all at once, and the reason is because it was high-DPS and never down due to heat. It was excellent at stopping a push. Pushes are full-expose. DPS > alpha on a full expose maneuver. LGauss having more DPS, therefore, makes them powerful on a full-expose maneuver.

Whether we get that DPS through 10 damage or a 2.5 second cool-down doesn't make a difference for this particular niche. Either way gives you DPS that begins to exceed that of a standard Gauss, rendering it the better option for extreme range power-position. If we go the damage route, though, that also makes the LGauss more potent as a poking tool.

I, personally, don't actually care whether we get more damage or shorter cool-down. What I care about is that it does get buffed and that it keeps the charge-up, because I actually enjoy playing with the charge-up.

View Postdavoodoo, on 25 November 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

********, you can precharge before exposing yourself, you even have skill nodes for that.


Yes, and that takes a couple mental cycles.

If the charge isn't doing anything, then there is no point in removing it.

#133 davoodoo

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 04:27 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 25 November 2017 - 04:20 PM, said:

Yes, and that takes a couple mental cycles.

If the charge isn't doing anything, then there is no point in removing it.

https://yourlogicalf...loaded-question

if it isnt doing anything it shouldnt be there to begin with so maybe think why it is.

Reason for charge is simple, jump sniping...but if lgauss is supposed to be dps gauss then its not gonna be used for jump sniping.

Edited by davoodoo, 25 November 2017 - 04:28 PM.


#134 Y E O N N E

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 04:30 PM

View Postdavoodoo, on 25 November 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

https://yourlogicalf...loaded-question

if it isnt doing anything it shouldnt be there to begin with so maybe think why it is.
Reason for charge is simple, jump sniping...


Even if it isn't doing anything mechanically, it's still there for flavor.

And I am not the one saying it isn't doing anything. You and the others voting to remove it are, by trotting out every example under the sun on how it isn't stopping XYZ from happening and/or how you bypass it or deal with it.

You've all shot yourselves in the foot by trying to take that angle.

#135 davoodoo

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 04:34 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 25 November 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:


Even if it isn't doing anything mechanically, it's still there for flavor.

And I am not the one saying it isn't doing anything. You and the others voting to remove it are, by trotting out every example under the sun on how it isn't stopping XYZ from happening and/or how you bypass it or deal with it.

You've all shot yourselves in the foot by trying to take that angle.

Its not me arguing that it does something that it doesnt and then confirming that it is the case when confronted about it...

#136 FupDup

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 04:35 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 25 November 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:

Even if it isn't doing anything mechanically, it's still there for flavor.

And I am not the one saying it isn't doing anything. You and the others voting to remove it are, by trotting out every example under the sun on how it isn't stopping XYZ from happening and/or how you bypass it or deal with it.

You've all shot yourselves in the foot by trying to take that angle.

If the charge-up didn't do anything, I don't think so many people would be campaigning so hard against it. It's clearly doing something to them...

#137 Y E O N N E

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 04:36 PM

View Postdavoodoo, on 25 November 2017 - 04:34 PM, said:

Its not me arguing that it does something that it doesnt and then confirming that it is the case when confronted about it...


I never said it did anything at any point in this thread. I only ever said it was an entertaining mechanic.

And, if you actually follow the thread, the people who did say it does something stuck to that story. It is purely the people saying it doesn't do anything saying that...it doesn't do anything, and then trying to convince themselves that that is true despite the fact that they want it gone because it is nebulously annoying. Meaning it must be doing something.

View PostFupDup, on 25 November 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

If the charge-up didn't do anything, I don't think so many people would be campaigning so hard against it. It's clearly doing something to them...


Precisely.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 25 November 2017 - 04:37 PM.


#138 MischiefSC

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 05:14 PM

View PostFupDup, on 25 November 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

If the charge-up didn't do anything, I don't think so many people would be campaigning so hard against it. It's clearly doing something to them...


Yes, it keeps Gauss from just being the ultimate ballistic. Which is exactly what it's supposed to do.

#139 panzer1b

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 05:38 PM

View PostKhobai, on 25 November 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

people dont use light gauss or heavy gauss. they barely use std gauss lol.


I dont know what planet ur living on, but i see both HGR and GR every single bloody game on at least 1-2 mechs per team (sometimes over half the team is using it, just had a game this morning where my team has 2 HGR maulers, evemy had a HGR nightstar, misery, and marader, and there was a deathstrike with them too, as well as a hellbringer i was driving with GR). Myself, over half my heavys and assaults have GR, HGR, or dual GR on them, so maybee im an exception and i just like GRs, but since half my mechs run it (and most of them are extremely reliable 500-1300 dmg per game mechs) i dont think id say GRs are bad or even close to that. Especially true for clam gauss which is really strong with lasers, but even IS GR/HGR is a solid weapon if you know how to use it and dont treat it as a AC or something expecting same results.

LGR is very rare (for obvious reasons), but even then i see something like a dual LGR rifleman or MAD3R every few games (usually on my team as any enemy with LGRs doesnt really attract my attention quickly).

Anyways, as for HGR being a bad short range weapon, its purely a matter of getting used to teh chargeup time and preloading the gauss in anticipation of a shot. 90% of the time when im about to expose i start charging before i even clear cover, so the whole chargeup thing is completely irrelevant in terms of my performance with said weapon (its just a little awkward to use but still fine). Im also of the opinion that the HGR is very very well balanced as a sidegrade in current meta (and i see a crapload of dual HGR maulers, and even single mounts on things like the marauders. Its damage/ton of ammo is bad without skills, but when you get both ammo nodes its 175dmg/ton compared to 180dmg/ton for normal gauss, 5 point difference, eg irrelevant unless u wanna bring 1/2 ton packages which are inefficient. It weighs ~21t, compared to 33t for dual GR, same rate of fire, and its 25 vs 30 dmg. You save a grand total of 12t swapping from 2 GR to 1 HGR, and the swap from LFE to STD is not gonna cost you 12t unless its a assault or something with a massive engine. In other words, HGR gives you more tonnage to play with (and at short range is almost as good as dual GRs), but with the obvious tradeoff of only being effective at 300m or less. I think thats pretty damn balanced right there...

Finally, did i mention that my single best loadout on the MAD-BH2 is a HGR with 6ERML+1ERSL. Its a mech that gets more consistent results then half my clan mechs in QP at least (havent ever used in in faction since im a clammer loyalist), i just need to make sure i engage properly and dont do something dumb like overexposing or charging into more then 1 enemy. I might not be able to outtrade clam laser vomit at range, but if i can get within 300m of a clam mech, its game over for them unless they have aimbot levels of accuracy and nail my RT every single shot (happens so rarely i dont consider it a big deal).

Edited by panzer1b, 25 November 2017 - 05:44 PM.


#140 R Valentine

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 10:57 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 25 November 2017 - 05:14 PM, said:

Yes, it keeps Gauss from just being the ultimate ballistic. Which is exactly what it's supposed to do.


Light Gauss isn't even a used ballistic right now, let alone the "ultimate" one.





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