247 replies to this topic

[Snazzy Dragon]

They are simply way too efficient for their tonnage despite the heat and slots.

Let's just compare right quick;

The previous damage "record" from using only 2 large laser family weapons were the 13 damage clan large pulse lasers, for 26 damage, at 12 tons. It's 24 damage now.
2 clan ER large lasers are 8 tons, for 22 damage, still beating out 2 isERLL (18 dmg) by a pretty noticeable margin.

IS large lasers need to be in a 15 ton trio to even compete on "equal" footing, dealing 27 damage. With large pulses you were sitting on 21 tons for 33 damage (30 now because of shortsighted nerfs).

Now, the heavy large laser pair is only 8 tons for 36 damage. Sure, you are saddled with high heat and long cooldowns, but it isn't a significant factor when the role of large lasers has generally been to shoot and fade anyway. Heavy large lasers pair even better than the cLPL does with cERMLs due to the saved tonnage despite the increase in crit space, so they've significantly boosted the potency of clan laser vomit. 2HLL + 4-6 ER medium lasers is the norm, and on mechs that can throw gauss into the mix, and with the Deathstrike being able to swap the ER mediums for heavy mediums with no real issue, things get really out of proportion for how powerful it is.
And, before the duration argument crops up, HLLs deal higher damage/tick than any other laser, so in the same time it takes other lasers to fire off and finish, you've almost always won the trade already. The extra duration is just the leg up if it lands. You're often dealing more than 8 extra damage on the other guy, and as a clan mech, you've probably just fired a crapton of other stuff with it, too.

TL;DR something needs to be done to curb their power. Cooldown is almost meaningless for balancing lasers larger than a small laser, so it needs to be in the raw damage or the duration, or in the range at which they can be used effectively.

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 27 November 2017 - 09:14 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Cooldown impacting laser performance has more to do with range than size. Below 300 meters, it's a big deal. Beyond that, it becomes increasingly marginal...to a point.

And, for the sake of being transparent, the IS LPL still has the highest damage rate out of all lasers...it's just that the total damage is a piddly 10, and it's actually limited by the longer burn on the Mediums it gets paired with. You could nerf the duration on the LPL to 0.9 seconds and nobody would really notice.

That said, I'm not sure the Heavy Large itself is actually the problem. Most of the best builds end up using cERLL instead, because the face time on the Heavies actually is a pretty suitable trade-off more often than not. The real issue, IMHO, is that the Clan lasers are simply too damage efficient for the heat. Not that the lasers themselves don't individually run hot, but that when you mass up heatsinks and find that sweet-spot, they are just too sustainable. There's no practical drawback for taking a bigger alpha with longer range when you still have the same kind of staying power, or better, that a weaker build on the other side of the fence has.

PGI has positioned the IS as focusing more on precision and repeatability to overcome lower alphas, but they undermined it by keeping IS ER Medium lasers with worse DPS than their Clan counter parts on top of worse range and identical heat performance. In order to execute on the concept properly, they have to have better DPS and better heat performance, or they just get pushed up on. And that's exactly what happens. Last month's nerf to Medium lasers did no favors, either, especially because the cMPL got off scott-free despite being the isERML's most direct competition.

[DrSaphron]

Have you actually SEEN the durration on the HLL? 1.55 second burn time is nothing to scoff at, from there consider the actual space needed for the lasers, coupled with the clan XL. That burn time, slot consumption, and heat make for a rather significant balancing mechanism as you have to literally build the entire mech around using those lasers. Sure they're 4 tons but they eat up slottage like mad and clan mechs need all the slots they can manage.

[Y E O N N E]

DrSaphron, on 27 November 2017 - 09:26 PM, said:

clan mechs need all the slots they can manage.

Lol

[Snazzy Dragon]

DrSaphron, on 27 November 2017 - 09:26 PM, said:

Have you actually SEEN the durration on the HLL? 1.55 second burn time is nothing to scoff at, from there consider the actual space needed for the lasers, coupled with the clan XL. That burn time, slot consumption, and heat make for a rather significant balancing mechanism as you have to literally build the entire mech around using those lasers. Sure they're 4 tons but they eat up slottage like mad and clan mechs need all the slots they can manage.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2e205d709367973

Didn't even need endo steel

[Khobai]

HLLs arnt the problem. If a mech only has one or two HLLs... thats not overpowered.

Its not a problem until you start combining the 2HLLs with 4-6 ERMLs.

So the easiest solution is just to link large and medium lasers for ghost heat. Based on what PGI did with PPC/Gauss im willing to bet thats the route theyll go for nerfing laser vomit.


And yeah HLL do eat up crit slots, you lose a DHS for each HLL you take compared to if you took an ERLL. HLL arnt the most heat efficient lasers. But the amount of damage they do for the tonnage is absurd.

Edited by Khobai, 27 November 2017 - 09:45 PM.

[Mcgral18]

DrSaphron, on 27 November 2017 - 09:26 PM, said:

Have you actually SEEN the durration on the HLL? 1.55 second burn time is nothing to scoff at, from there consider the actual space needed for the lasers, coupled with the clan XL. That burn time, slot consumption, and heat make for a rather significant balancing mechanism as you have to literally build the entire mech around using those lasers. Sure they're 4 tons but they eat up slottage like mad and clan mechs need all the slots they can manage.

Duration means little when it has the highest Damage/tick
It's the trade master


My SadCats like them

[Armored Yokai]

Hellbringers are the even bigger problem.
No 65 tonner can beat this mech unless the map is a city or close map
Boating 4 ERLL on the Hellbringer with the Inclusion of ECM(functions like AECM) makes it too strong for it's own good.
(Linebackers and CauldronBorns are not as problematic as the Hellbringer because they are so wide and it's easier to hit and trade with them)

Edited by Armored Yokai, 27 November 2017 - 10:05 PM.

[N0ni]

What's there to address when it's PGI's "balance" attempts that create these problems every single time? Without fail i might add.

As soon as one "OP" thing is addressed and solved, another one takes the place of the previous and we begin the forum threads all over again. Meanwhile, when you "solve" that "OP" thing... you ruin it for the underperforming mechs putting them further below the curve.

[Khobai]

Quote

Hellbringers are the even bigger problem.

I dont think ERLL hellbringers are really an issue at all lol

battlemasters wreck ERLL hellbringers

the big problem is the midrange laser vomit coming from HLL+CERML combos.

even a 50 ton hunchback can put out an 70-80 damage laser vomit alpha.

Quote

As soon as one "OP" thing is addressed and solved, another one takes the place of the previous and we begin the forum threads all over again. Meanwhile, when you "solve" that "OP" thing... you ruin it for the underperforming mechs putting them further below the curve.

usually something gets overnerfed too

I expect the madcat MKII to get overnerfed soon

Edited by Khobai, 27 November 2017 - 10:20 PM.

[Troa Barton]

The thing about heavy lasers is they aren't space efficient, you have to load up with heatsinks even if you only use one.
They have plenty of drawbacks, they are designed to be used in hardpoint limited mechs that would otherwise not have the punch with standard weapons or the weight to mount more effective weapon combinations.

There is nothing wrong with heavy lasers.

The extended burn time coupled with a long cooldown, gratuitous heat, and the cost of crit space (including heatsinks) are all drawbacks.

A Gauss rifle does similar damage but weighs more, has much more range, requires zero heatsinks, and has a max DPS of 2.61

A Heavy large laser on the other hand despite doing more damage has a DPS of 2.47.

Large pulse laser has a DPS of 2.80

EDIT: I will add to this that you can actually get the max DPS out of a gauss rifle. Both of the laser alternatives may have that DPS initially but there will come a time where you have to cool down and thus will not fire the weapon. If you aren't firing the weapon the moment it comes off cooldown your DPS suffers.

Both of the heavier alternatives are more heat efficient, space efficient, have better optimum ranges, and deal damage far faster that the HLL with less chance of return fire.

A pulse or ballistic build will out perform a heavy large laser build every time provided they are both using their mechs as they should.

Heavy lasers are working as intended and are well balanced.

Further edit: Anyone that wants to add more ghost heat to this game needs to be slapped with a moldy mop.

Edited by Troa Barton, 29 November 2017 - 03:14 PM.

[Armored Yokai]

Khobai, on 27 November 2017 - 10:17 PM, said:

I dont think ERLL hellbringers are really an issue at all lol

battlemasters wreck ERLL hellbringers

I shouldn't have to use a 85 tonner to stop a 65 tonner
not to mention, you guys get 3 Hellbringers.

[Parmeggido]

The real problem with the HLL is that it's pretty much everything the IS wants out of the Binary Laser Cannon, except at less than half the weight. Many people have requested BLazers for a long time, but just imagine if they were added to a game where the HLL exists.

[Vxheous]

Armored Yokai, on 27 November 2017 - 10:33 PM, said:

I shouldn't have to use a 85 tonner to stop a 65 tonner
not to mention, you guys get 3 Hellbringers.

You can bring 2 Battlemasters + 1 grasshopper + locust to counter, or 3 Grasshoppers + 55 tonner.

[Xavori]

I have exactly zero HLL's on any mech because no way are my delicate little Clan mechs going to spend that much time out in the open followed by having to hide while all that heat goes away.

CERLL's are way moar betterer.

Also, anyone who suggests linking up more ghost heat should be slapped with a slightly rotting tuna. We need to get rid of ghost heat so assaults can finally go back to being assaults instead of just big slow mediums with a bit of extra armor.

[FupDup]

It's just too much power for too little cost. I'd start with lowering its damage to 16 and see how things shake out from there.

[sceii]

Easy guide how to counter HLL mechs.
Step 1: Equip your mech with srm/mrm/ml/mpl/ac10-20/mg
Step 2: Find enemy mech with hll
Step 3: Use your best tactics to get in 300m range bracket
Step 4: Twist as good as you can for 1 enemy mech alpha
Step 5: Kill enemy mech when he is waiting for his lasers and heat to cooldown.
EZPZ

[Joey Tankblaster]

sceii, on 27 November 2017 - 11:16 PM, said:

Easy guide how to counter HLL mechs.
Step 1: Equip your mech with srm/mrm/ml/mpl/ac10-20/mg
Step 2: Find enemy mech with hll
Step 3: Use your best tactics to get in 300m range bracket
Step 4: Twist as good as you can for 1 enemy mech alpha
Step 5: Kill enemy mech when he is waiting for his lasers and heat to cooldown.
EZPZ

Sure - sounds nice in a 1 vs 1 situation. Does, however, not at all represent the current trade&hide laser vomit meta.

Corrected this for you:

Easy guide how to lose against HLL mechs.
Step 1: Equip your mech with srm/mrm/ml/mpl/ac10-20/mg
Step 2: Find enemy mech with hll
Step 3: Use your best tactics to get in 300m range bracket
Step 4: Get wrecked by enemy team cause you are pushing alone
Step 5: Spectate your team

[WrathOfDeadguy]

HLL isn't space efficient? It's one crit more than ISLL, one ton less, and twice the damage. It's the most efficient large laser in the game. Yes, it is powerful. No, the 1.55s duration isn't a handicap, because- guess what- it can deal over 50% more damage than an ISLL in the same 1.1s window, even if you don't land the other 0.45s of burn.

Yes, it is that good.

IMO, what PGI needs to do with HLL is to give it the stats it had in TT- essentially, to flip the damage and heat values (TT HLL dealt 16dam for 18 heat; MWO HLL deals 18dam for 16 heat). That way, it still deals much more damage than any other LL, but suffers from extreme heatgen, as it was meant to.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 27 November 2017 - 11:49 PM.

[sceii]

Joey Tankblaster, on 27 November 2017 - 11:43 PM, said:

Sure - sounds nice in a 1 vs 1 situation. Does, however, not at all represent the current trade&hide laser vomit meta.

In 12v12 it's a bit easier to sneak close to laserboats, just choose busy one.
Anyway after hide and trade phase comes brawl phase, try not to get melted before it starts.
If you want to fully embrace trade&hide and want to kill laservomit mechs, just use 97kph+mech with double erppc or gauss and outrange laserboats in their game.