219 replies to this topic

[Brain Cancer]

OmniFail, on 14 December 2017 - 09:30 PM, said:

I am not a typical lurm chucker. I was born to lurm.

Anyway here is a screeny of my team carrying me on Crimson. Sorry I didn't do better on your brawler map with my fail lurms.

That's perfectly acceptable. Now, if only most people could pull that on Crimson with missiles...usually, I see lurmboats lucky to clear 400, much less 1000. But that's the point. LRMs get increasingly hosed as cover increases and people can either hide under it or close in and melt someone without taking heavy damage on the way through. Best I've done with one on Crimson:



When you have map choice determine potential performance that heavily, all it takes is people voting someplace cramped and suddenly, you're at effectively half your best or worse.

[MischiefSC]

OmniFail, on 14 December 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

Oh so I should listen to you to be good?

Given that dropping on his team literally statistically improves my odds of winning while dropping with you on my team reduces my odds of winning by about 20%, yes.

Yes you should.

Because high damage and a loss being someones *average* performance means their in game behavior is the absolute no question worst sort of player. The most deleterious sort of dead weight someone can have the misfortune of having on their team; the person hiding in the back, using their team as armor to pad their own stats.

It's one thing for someone to just be incompetent - it's another for them to be intentionally, consistently and purposefully a negative impact on their teams ability to win a match.

That's the whole 'armor sharing' thing that wins games that you don't do and have stated don't actually understand, among other things.

Yeah, you should pay attention to the advice he gives you, it would make you a benefit to your team instead of a burden.

[Xiphias]

OmniFail, on 14 December 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

Oh so I should listen to you to be good?

Spoiler

Who knows? I might be able to teach you a few tricks.



You seem like a decent player, far better than most of the LRM boats I see around. My earlier comment was addressed to that player in particular based on their stats.

That said you're still only averaging a bit over a 1 for WLR, respectable, but it could definitely be better. High match score compared to WLR and KDR also shows that you aren't doing efficient damage (LRMs). While you're definitely contributing when you do 1k plus damage with LRMs it's not nearly as effective as 1k direct fire damage would be. Having 3 kills for 1600 damage isn't ideal. Don't get me wrong, 1600 damage is good in any mech, but it shows you aren't good at finishing targets. The match I posed is 5 solo kills for a similar amount of damage.

Your response perfectly illustrates my point though. Immediate defensiveness and combativeness the moment someone brings up a negative view about LRMs. Seasoned with a nice touch of "thinks they're a better player than they are".

[Xetelian]

OmniFail, on 14 December 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

Oh so I should listen to you to be good?

1600 damage divided by 10 targets.

That is 160 damage per mech with only 3 kills.

Unless it is an ANH or a AS7 with uberquirks and a 32 points in the survival tree, it should die in under 160 damage to the CT.

160 damage / 3 chest components and two arms (I'm being generous and not counting legs)

32 damage per component. You MIGHT have taken an arm off of a light mech, but most everything else still has its weapons intact.



High damage is not the same as effective damage.

I can put 200 damage straight down the center of a DWF because they're big and can't twist. They are likely going to be dead and off the battlefield. In my HBK 4P that is 5 alphas, though I don't alpha i shoot 6 then shoot 3 .5 seconds after.


With an LRM I'm going to assume 4-6 missiles hit the CT from an LRM20, 4 LRM20s alpha firing will do a possible 20 damage to the CT of a fairly large mech, that is 80 damage worth of alpha for 20 CT damage. That also requires the mech to stand perfectly still and accept 10 LRM 80 shots to the face. You're wasting 800 missiles to do 200 damage to one component. This is why LRM dedicated mechs have to bring 10-14 tons of ammo.

You have to alpha twice as many times as a 50 ton mech with your SNV-A.


I can peak, fire and hide, reposition and peak fire hide again then do it 3 more times and have a dead DWF.

You have to rely on the team to lock a target out in the open or put up a good uav and get your shots in before the enemy shoots it down or kills the people spotting.

I can play my mech on any map with few problems. LRMs have a few good maps but they also have a few bad maps.


You may out damage my 50 ton medium, but I also have 1000 damage matches too, especially when the enemy team has 4 ANH. More people die when I do 1000 damage than when you do though.

Edited by Xetelian, 15 December 2017 - 12:58 AM.

[Asym]

This chest pounding is silly........ If a player wants to use an assualt as a LRM platform: ok ! It's a choice and it might be fun to try one and "see what happens".... good damage guys !!!

I sort of gave up LRMs as a primary weapon....and, I suck as a brawler... Oh well, LRM's have been effectively neutered (Solaris).

LRM's need to be realigned back to effectiveness.... But, with Solaris around the corner, they need to be further nerf'd to the point or competitive teams use them: never...... Can't have e-Sports with effective LRM's or any weapon that is indirect.

[Weeny Machine]

I like LRM assaults. I hump them with my Wolfhound like there's no tomorrow.

Thanks for playing LRM assaults. You give us light mech pilots good scores.

[- World Eater -]

A+ thread, would read again.

[Humpday]

Bush Hopper, on 15 December 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

I like LRM assaults. I hump them with my Wolfhound like there's no tomorrow.

Thanks for playing LRM assaults. You give us light mech pilots good scores.

I punish LRM boats in my Wolfhound as well!!

[OmniFail]

Xetelian, on 15 December 2017 - 12:55 AM, said:

1600 damage divided by 10 targets.

That is 160 damage per mech with only 3 kills.

Unless it is an ANH or a AS7 with uberquirks and a 32 points in the survival tree, it should die in under 160 damage to the CT.

160 damage / 3 chest components and two arms (I'm being generous and not counting legs)

32 damage per component. You MIGHT have taken an arm off of a light mech, but most everything else still has its weapons intact.



High damage is not the same as effective damage.

I can put 200 damage straight down the center of a DWF because they're big and can't twist. They are likely going to be dead and off the battlefield. In my HBK 4P that is 5 alphas, though I don't alpha i shoot 6 then shoot 3 .5 seconds after.


With an LRM I'm going to assume 4-6 missiles hit the CT from an LRM20, 4 LRM20s alpha firing will do a possible 20 damage to the CT of a fairly large mech, that is 80 damage worth of alpha for 20 CT damage. That also requires the mech to stand perfectly still and accept 10 LRM 80 shots to the face. You're wasting 800 missiles to do 200 damage to one component. This is why LRM dedicated mechs have to bring 10-14 tons of ammo.

You have to alpha twice as many times as a 50 ton mech with your SNV-A.


I can peak, fire and hide, reposition and peak fire hide again then do it 3 more times and have a dead DWF.

You have to rely on the team to lock a target out in the open or put up a good uav and get your shots in before the enemy shoots it down or kills the people spotting.

I can play my mech on any map with few problems. LRMs have a few good maps but they also have a few bad maps.


You may out damage my 50 ton medium, but I also have 1000 damage matches too, especially when the enemy team has 4 ANH. More people die when I do 1000 damage than when you do though.

It appears that the inefficient LRM damage is more efficient at killing than the efficient direct fire damage.

Bush Hopper, on 15 December 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

I like LRM assaults. I hump them with my Wolfhound like there's no tomorrow.

Thanks for playing LRM assaults. You give us light mech pilots good scores.

Humpday, on 15 December 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

I punish LRM boats in my Wolfhound as well!!

For all the support that light pilots give me. I think its worth dying to them (just like the rest of the assaults) every now and then. I just wish they would get more points for supporting.

Edited by OmniFail, 15 December 2017 - 08:53 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

MischiefSC, on 14 December 2017 - 11:24 PM, said:

Given that dropping on his team literally statistically improves my odds of winning while dropping with you on my team reduces my odds of winning by about 20%, yes.

Given his season stats, he's actually right at "contributing just fine", given the 1.0+ W/L and K/D.

It does take more effort to make up for how poor the LRM is on average, though. If you're on a good map, you darn well better carry hard, because the bad maps will cripple you by comparison.

As for lights? Your best friend as an assault anyway. I make a point of bullying lights in my assaults anyway, but even more so if it's one fighting ours...because I know very well what kind of disadvantage most assaults are at vs. lights. If I can mug the little pain while it's forcibly distracted, great.

[OmniFail]

MischiefSC, on 14 December 2017 - 11:24 PM, said:

Given that dropping on his team literally statistically improves my odds of winning while dropping with you on my team reduces my odds of winning by about 20%, yes.

Don't worry bro. I don't affect your numbers because I don't participate in CW seal clubing

[MischiefSC]

Brain Cancer, on 15 December 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

Given his season stats, he's actually right at "contributing just fine", given the 1.0+ W/L and K/D.

It does take more effort to make up for how poor the LRM is on average, though. If you're on a good map, you darn well better carry hard, because the bad maps will cripple you by comparison.

As for lights? Your best friend as an assault anyway. I make a point of bullying lights in my assaults anyway, but even more so if it's one fighting ours...because I know very well what kind of disadvantage most assaults are at vs. lights. If I can mug the little pain while it's forcibly distracted, great.

1.0 isn't doing fine. It means you're barely carrying your own weight, while someone else on the team is carrying the bads on your team and there are bads on every single team.

So given that your team breakdown is going to include several sub-1.0 w/l players you need to be well over 1 to be a real contributor. A 1.0 with a high damage and KDR literally indicates that what you're doing is farming damage and kills while doing nothing to contribute to the team. You are, literally, a leech. You're not driving wins, you're not carrying the bads on your team, you're just farming damage and hoping other people carry the rest of the team.

That's the worst sort of stats to have.

It's not about stat shaming - it's a game, play and have fun. I don't care if someone's having a laugh and running a sub 1.0 w/l in that regard. Happy they're playing, I hope they're having fun.

If however they are under the delusion that they're actually doing well and are promoting their bad habits as good habits, oh **** yeah I'll call that out. We have enough issues with people learning to play this game without them getting lied to and told that being bad is good.

OmniFail, on 15 December 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Don't worry bro. I don't affect your numbers because I don't participate in CW seal clubing

I club Canadian Baby Seals most of all.

However, do you understand that the leaderboards are separate? I mean I pugged in FW for 2 years with a better win/loss than you have in QP and I'm a mediocre player. Now that I'm in a unit absolutely I win a lot more than I lose - against units. Because I actually put the time and energy into understanding how the game really works and what the stats represent and how the game is won.

My QP stats reflect maybe 3 or 4 group queue matches - which I lose more of than I do in QP because the competition is way, way higher in group queue. I don't think I've ever dropped 10 matches in a month in group queue. If I'm in a group it's in FW.

Your performance in QP absolutely does impact everyone you play with. If you're doing a lot of damage and have a decent KDR but a w/l of 1 or so then you are not carrying. You're leeching. You're not driving wins, you're barely occupying space. It's not hyperbole or the like to say that literally having you on my team reduces my odds of winning significantly.

Which is okay - not everyone plays for the same things, I like winning more than I like losing. Some people just like stomping in robbits and shooting stuff and explosions. That's cool, I carry them just fine 2 out of 3 matches and again, I'm a mediocre player. However your stats are not winning stats. You're not driving wins. How you play isn't a strategy to be successful at winning - it's a strategy to maximize damage and leech kills by using your team as armor, buffing your stats at a steep cost of actually winning the game for the team. For anyone who actually likes to win I'd rather have a guy going YOLO in a flamer Commando he will do more to actually win the match, which is more important to me than my damage or kills.

Every match has winners and losers. That's determined by who actually won. Everything else is semantics. Take a look at the stats on the scoreboard; you've got very high damage relative to your w/l. Most the people who do 350+ match scores are closer to a 3.0 w/l. Because they're actually killing mechs instead of leeching damage off mechs their teammates are killing.

The difference is the difference between playing to win and playing to pad your stats.

Do what you want and have fun. It's a game. However it is not correct to say that how you play is a winning system.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

1.0 isn't doing fine. It means you're barely carrying your own weight, while someone else on the team is carrying the bads on your team and there are bads on every single team.

Considering there are multiple players per match on your team that are literally part of the losing problem, anyone who carries their own weight isn't part of the problem. They may not be part of the carry, but they're not going to make a carry harder situation worse. At worst, they're a neutral that won't give you kill advantage, but also won't disadvantage.

More likely given the nature of missile boating is that they'd actually carry more, but someone picked Crimson and Mining six times in a row instead so they're screwed, even as people chant "lurms are fine" while posting quad damage numbers on Polar.

Honestly, maps like those are Russian Roulette given the nature of people playing missile boats. Finding out your team has a lance of lurmboats on Mining is basically a self-inflicted loss, assuming you voted the map.

[MischiefSC]

Brain Cancer, on 15 December 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

Considering there are multiple players per match on your team that are literally part of the losing problem, anyone who carries their own weight isn't part of the problem. They may not be part of the carry, but they're not going to make a carry harder situation worse. At worst, they're a neutral that won't give you kill advantage, but also won't disadvantage.

More likely given the nature of missile boating is that they'd actually carry more, but someone picked Crimson and Mining six times in a row instead so they're screwed, even as people chant "lurms are fine" while posting quad damage numbers on Polar.

Honestly, maps like those are Russian Roulette given the nature of people playing missile boats. Finding out your team has a lance of lurmboats on Mining is basically a self-inflicted loss, assuming you voted the map.

It's not about 1.0 - it's about high damage and kills with a 1.0. That means you're farming damage and leeching kills but not in a way that wins matches.

What that really means is that if you've got people carrying you on the team you'll do alright and maybe even suppress the other teams ability to turn it around, which is where you get to the 1.0. However you're not contributing - you're a wash.

Which is okay. Skill is a curve and people tend to be on one end or the other and, again, it's a game.

However a 1 w/l is NOT 'doing good'. Especially with high damage/kills, it means you're just leeching. I'll take someone with an average 250 match score but 1.6 w/l over someone with a 1.0 w/l and 400 match score all day every day. The first guy is winning matches, consistently. I don't care how. The second guy clearly has a system for damage farming and using you as pug armor.

[OmniFail]

MischiefSC, on 15 December 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

So given that your team breakdown is going to include several sub-1.0 w/l players you need to be well over 1 to be a real contributor. A 1.0 with a high damage and KDR literally indicates that what you're doing is farming damage and kills while doing nothing to contribute to the team. You are, literally, a leech. You're not driving wins, you're not carrying the bads on your team, you're just farming damage and hoping other people carry the rest of the team.

Oh I see.... So no matter how much damage I do. No matter how many clowns I kill. It's my fault that I didn't carry harder.

Edited by OmniFail, 15 December 2017 - 07:43 PM.

[MischiefSC]

OmniFail, on 15 December 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

Oh I see.... So no matter how much damage I do. No matter how many clowns I kill. It's my fault that I didn't carry harder.

No. Not at all.

If I stay in the back with a dual HPPC poptart QD I can steal kills and get an absolutely insane KDR. However my w/l would go down.

Why?

Because there's a world of difference between stealing kills and making kills.

Same thing with damage. If you're hiding in the back with indirect fire (as you say you do, given that you think sharing armor is a 'myth') then all you're doing is raining largely useless damage on mechs your teammates are killing anyway. If you were not there I'd still kill someone with 2 burns from my 2HLL, 6CERML MC IIC. You might steal the kill, you might do 300 damage to the guy but he's still just 2 shots to me. Your impact is largely irrelevant. Since you're not drawing fire like everyone else (which is what sharing armor is) I can't count on you to take a turn shifting enemy attention so I have to carry harder. Playing with someone who plays like you claim you do is just more for players with a strong w/l to carry.

Which is fine; I win 2 out of 3 games regardless in QP, because I long ago gave up expecting other players to actually carry. Some are just bads who play bad, some are just leeches. Play how you want and have fun.

Just playing like a leech and then saying how amazing you are? Not fooling anyone who knows what the leaderboards are, how they work, what they mean or even the basics of how the game works - like why LRMs are bad.

A 1.0 w/l with a high damage average is literal evidence for why LRMs are bad.

[OmniFail]

MischiefSC, on 15 December 2017 - 11:28 PM, said:

Because there's a world of difference between stealing kills and making kills.

Oh I see now. Now the problem is that regardless of the insane amount of damage I do. The kills are not mine, but are stolen.

Edited by OmniFail, 16 December 2017 - 12:35 AM.

[InvictusLee]

Humpday, on 15 December 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

I punish LRM boats in my Wolfhound as well!!

Wolfhounds are crunchy!

although, I am really really helpless against PB's. lol.

[Xetelian]

OmniFail, on 15 December 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

It appears that the inefficient LRM damage is more efficient at killing than the efficient direct fire damage.






For all the support that light pilots give me. I think its worth dying to them (just like the rest of the assaults) every now and then. I just wish they would get more points for supporting.

1366 / 12 targets = 114 damage per each one.

Your 4 solo kills weren't on assaults unless you did 3 or 4 mechs worth of damage to them and then did less than 1 mechs worth to a few others.


High damage scores are nice to look at but you could have killed almost all the enemies with that.


Watch a guy with dual Gauss and PPC, especially back in the jump sniping days. You could Jump twice and do 100 damage to someone and for most mechs they'd be dead. People were clearing out entire lances by themselves and with today's Gauss/Vomit you can still watch people delete enemies at 500m.


I just put 3 LRM15s on a JM6 A
I went to tourmaline
I targeted the atlas at 187m

I alpha'd 10 times before it died.

45 x 10 is 450 missiles used to kill the CT of a mech that has 30 back armor. Just imagine if it had front loaded that armor, put 32 points into survival and twisted.

I hit everything, the legs, the arms, the sides and the head.

I'm sure I racked up 450 damage and got a solo kill though.

[YueFei]

Anecdotes are cute but they aren't statistics, and I'd rather have a teammate who averages 200 damage/match with a win/loss of 3 to 1, rather than a teammate who averages 1000 damage/match with a win/loss of 1 to 1.

Infantrymen talk about the nature of suppression, and the way in which a cascading effect can take place. That is, 1 extra man can suppress an enemy who was previously suppressing a friendly. Now that friendly, being no longer suppressed, can act to suppress an additional enemy.

Taking some heat off of a teammate so that they can survive and then continue to contribute (instead of just dying) can make a huge impact. A teammate that can survive at <50% health that can toss in an extra 2 or 3 volleys that cripple or kill an enemy can start a cascading effect that helps the team roll to victory.

As an analogy with professional team sports, some athletes are extremely self-centered, and don't put in good effort when the play isn't going to them. You have wide receivers, for example, who seem entirely uninterested in blocking. These guys are a detriment to their team. It may not seem apparent to any casual fans, but anyone serious who watches game film (and the NFL is able to keep track of quite an advanced set of statistics) will see it stick out like a sore thumb. Another example is defensive players not keeping disciplined and staying in their assigned gaps... and hunting for personal glory trying to get the tackle (which might help their own personal stats), only to over-pursue and give up a big gain. Le'veon Bell frequently takes advantage of this with his famous patience while running the ball.