242 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

All we have to ignore (according to Clam apologists) about Clan tech are the following:
Clan XL (IS XL is insta-side core death and LFE comes at a greater tonnage deficit while inheriting the same penalties as Clan XL)
Clan FF (usually able to be picked up on most non-Clan Omnimechs, rarely selected by IS due to crit considerations)
Clan Endo (IS always pays double in slots)
Clan DHS (IS DHS takes more slots and by nature of crits can't fit as many as a Clan mech can - you know, math)
Clan Weapons (can fit an CERLL on the head or CERPPC on the CT whenever possible - IS gets weaker options - totally not limited to energy weapons)

You know... everything.

I mean, all we need is a complicit man to balance the game in favor of potatoes (willfully ignorant or intentional - either result is plausible) and what do we have? Virtually every comp player running a Clan mech under 95+% of the instances.

But no, let's just pretend it's all equal, because Clans always win, or something infallible logic.

For the most part I believe Clans are superior in a comp environment due to Comp focusing heavily on trading. Clan has the best traders in general but IS has great mechs for other roles such as overwatch, brawling, DPS, damage sponging, anything involving being a light mech or fast medium, and often times damage spreading. I find it kinda funny how the winning team ended up bringing a Dragon of all things, one IS mech that's normally considered to be terrible did have its use in the tournament on overwatch, though we all know its not winning any trades.

Jay Leon Hart, on 23 December 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

More likely, that HBR will aim at the ST of the BLK-KNT and, since humans have a reaction time, maybe spread 0.15s of that burn, so let's say 10% less damage for the HBR, putting it at 63 damage vs the BLK-KNTs 57.

[Edit]
BLK-KNT Armour/Structure/Quirk
RT/LT = 64 + 32 + 12 = 108
CT = 92 + 46 + 17 = 155

HBR Armour/Structure/Quirk
RT/LT = 60 + 30 + 0 = 90
CT = 84 + 42 + 0 = 126

Minimum damage to kill BLK-KNT = 108, so at 63 damage per shot, that's a potentially dead BLK-KNT in 8.85s.

Minimum damage to kill HBR = 126, so at 57 damage per shot, that's 9.5s to kill the HBR.
[/Edit]

Could go with an LFE instead of the XL and have 20 DHS while only going 3 KPH under 70, which is just fine to do since with an IS team most people are only moving 70 at best and there are many assaults sitting at 60kph or below. That'd help a lot for the BK, he'd win if the two just stood there staring eachother down, but that's not really how trading works anyway.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6056408571a9500


Trying to win trades against a Clan mech as an IS one is an uphill battle though, decking your BK out in MPLs, using the ample cover found in 90% of maps, and taking the fight up to the Clan mech is an easy fight instead. Most Clanners aren't going to be bringing brawl decks in the first place since they're so used to trading in the first place, so you're going to be going up against a mech who hits you with a 78 damage alpha (if they use 6 ERML and 2 HLL as usual) but you can hit them twice for every alpha they do with 9 MPL each time. 108 damage every time they fire 78 and you out sustain them so they can't really put in that third strike without coolshots.




Basically all I'm saying here is Clans OP in some circumstances while IS OP in others. Clan's circumstances just happen to fit the poke meta much more than IS's.

[Deathlike]

Dakota1000, on 23 December 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

For the most part I believe Clans are superior in a comp environment due to Comp focusing heavily on trading. Clan has the best traders in general but IS has great mechs for other roles such as overwatch, brawling, DPS, damage sponging, anything involving being a light mech or fast medium, and often times damage spreading. I find it kinda funny how the winning team ended up bringing a Dragon of all things, one IS mech that's normally considered to be terrible did have its use in the tournament on overwatch, though we all know its not winning any trades.

Clans can brawl. People simply don't exercise the Clan's ability to brawl until it had gotten nerfed into the ground, and technically they are still pretty good at it. It's hard to compare the 6 ASRM6 Huntsman (or people ignore the Artemis these days? I haven't paid attention) to an IS mech that even attempts to do the same (I think the Archer is the closest thing, and even that thing isn't even ideal for many obvious reasons). Splatdog is nice, but Splatbackers were ridiculous vs most disorganized groups. You have to remember that Clan tonnage savings is one of the reasons it's easy to slap on Artemis, compared to IS.

Also, Proton is special. People wish and design their mechs based on what he does w/o the coordination, understanding, and everything (foundational) that is required of that build to succeed (something that may be called "skill"). It doesn't make the Dragon a great mech necessarily - it's the pilot that made the mech do something above and beyond the average casual/potato dream of accomplishing.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 December 2017 - 07:11 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 07:10 PM, said:

Clans can brawl. People simply don't exercise the Clan's ability to brawl until it had gotten nerfed into the ground, and technically they are still pretty good at it. It's hard to compare the 6 ASRM6 Huntsman (or people ignore the Artemis these days? I haven't paid attention) to an IS mech that even attempts to do the same (I think the Archer is the closest thing, and even that thing isn't even ideal for many obvious reasons). Splatdog is nice, but Splatbackers were ridiculous vs most disorganized groups. You have to remember that Clan tonnage savings is one of the reasons it's easy to slap on Artemis, compared to IS.

Also, Proton is special. People wish and design their mechs based on what he does w/o the coordination, understanding, and everything (foundational) that is required of that build to succeed (something that may be called "skill"). It doesn't make the Dragon a great mech necessarily - it's the pilot that made the mech do something above and beyond the average casual/potato dream of accomplishing.

>Attempts to competitively brawl as Clan in an assault mech
>Gets 12 damage
Clans BTFO, how can they even compete?

Joking aside, IS counter to the 6 ASRM6 Huntsman and even the 6 ASRM6 Mad Dog would just be the Bushwacker. Also, what are you running the Linebacker with, just 4 ASRM6? Doesn't have room for 6 unless you're just bringing 2 tons of ammo and no head armor, looks like it would get countered pretty well by Bushwackers too. Better yet IS can bring out the Archer and use 6 ASRM6 effectively, even more crushing with their extra damage from being IS and better spread and the 20% less damage the Archer takes to its side torsos when the bay doors are closed, and the huge armor quirks ontop of all that, just super tanky.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e35cef35ee1cd82

I wonder just how good the Archer will be in the 1v1s and 2v2s of Solaris, its a very underrated mech, many people think its bad and most know it for LRMs, but its ASRM6 power combined with tanking place it way higher up than the Mad Dog at brawling if you can stand losing about 12 kph. In the 1v1s and 2v2s you could probably cut out a ton or two of ammo for some RLs for some additional burst damage.

Something like this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9ad38582905206e

Even you said the Archer wasn't ideal, but look at that potential. It seems ideal to me, not even adding on skill tree the side torsos on that thing with the 20% damage reduction have an equivalent health value to 125 while the CT has 154. Compared to the MDD-A's 91 side torso health and 120 CT health, and lower damage and more spread per shot. MDD only has more cooling compared to the Archer, though the Archer is still quite manageable as is. I'll compare the Linebacker to it if you share your build.

[Scout Derek]

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 07:10 PM, said:

Clans can brawl. People simply don't exercise the Clan's ability to brawl until it had gotten nerfed into the ground, and technically they are still pretty good at it. It's hard to compare the 6 ASRM6 Huntsman (or people ignore the Artemis these days? I haven't paid attention) to an IS mech that even attempts to do the same (I think the Archer is the closest thing, and even that thing isn't even ideal for many obvious reasons). Splatdog is nice, but Splatbackers were ridiculous vs most disorganized groups. You have to remember that Clan tonnage savings is one of the reasons it's easy to slap on Artemis, compared to IS.

As someone who exclusively brawls with an Orion IIC, I can say this; it can brawl if played carefully, like any other brawler. I have yet to meet a 75 ton mech that can do the same as it, minus it's IS counterpart, which I've only two-thirds successfully made work okay.

Clan mechs are at times, weaker than IS mechs. But that again, goes back on how you play them. IS mechs mostly get armor a majority of the time, and in those cases will win in extremely heavier in extremely light-weight battles. Examples Include the Viper VS Assassin, Dire Wolf VS Atlas, Urbanmech VS Arctic Cheetah.

However in Medium and Heavy brackets, is when the two tech sides are at times mostly on the same level or are outgunned by the clans. As you mentioned already, one example is the SRM huntsman. (Personally, I don't use Artemis simply because I'm not aiming for components, that's already done via 120-200M when brawling) The huntsman can bring 8M hardpoints, and have them all filled up with SRM 6 packs each. I haven't seen a single IS mech that can do that, or stand up to that kind of firepower.

Another example of clan tech beating IS tech is, from my experience, is the Orion IIC VS Black Knight, or any other IS mech just about within the same tonnage bracket. The Orion IIC-A gets 4SRM6+A + LBXAC/20, basically, it's a actual mini clan Atlas, going a minimum speed if necessary 83KPH, or a tad bit higher ~87KPH. And in a brawl, you want all the firepower you can get, including speed. No IS mech can do what the IIC can do, I've tried it and in most 1 on 1 Scenarios, it wins if it gets within 400M of it's target closing in. No cover, no running away, will save most mechs. Majority are killed and ended very quickly.

Edited by Scout Derek, 23 December 2017 - 07:42 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Dakota1000, on 23 December 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

Even you said the Archer wasn't ideal, but look at that potential. It seems ideal to me, not even adding on skill tree the side torsos on that thing with the 20% damage reduction have an equivalent health value to 125 while the CT has 154. Compared to the MDD-A's 91 side torso health and 120 CT health, and lower damage and more spread per shot. MDD only has more cooling compared to the Archer, though the Archer is still quite manageable as is. I'll compare the Linebacker to it if you share your build.

Archer will be... okay in 1v1. It's Maddog-like STs are definitely an issue; however, and I hope they don't, if it gets paired up against a PP mech, such as lasers or heavy ballistics, this thing will have trouble. The main point of this mech is SRMs and MRMs, not lasers or LRMs in Solaris. If it does, then it will lose very badly, as will the Maddog.

Now, if you are going up against, let's say, the LRM awesome, then there's a chance the Archer could win, which I see very likely happening. Or maybe up against the Dragon.

[Deathlike]

Dakota1000, on 23 December 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

>Attempts to competitively brawl as Clan in an assault mech
>Gets 12 damage
Clans BTFO, how can they even compete?

Joking aside, IS counter to the 6 ASRM6 Huntsman and even the 6 ASRM6 Mad Dog would just be the Bushwacker. Also, what are you running the Linebacker with, just 4 ASRM6? Doesn't have room for 6 unless you're just bringing 2 tons of ammo and no head armor, looks like it would get countered pretty well by Bushwackers too. Better yet IS can bring out the Archer and use 6 ASRM6 effectively, even more crushing with their extra damage from being IS and better spread and the 20% less damage the Archer takes to its side torsos when the bay doors are closed, and the huge armor quirks ontop of all that, just super tanky.

IIRC, I've run the Linebacker with 6 SRM6 before. It was glorious TBH (this is way prior to the SRM/Artemis nerf).

The Bushwacker gives too much in this trade. Going XL means accelerated side torso death (not hard to perform) or being slower with a STD engine. At that point, the Huntsman still have JJs to play with and still has the overall advantage while being 5t smaller.

Quote

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e35cef35ee1cd82

I wonder just how good the Archer will be in the 1v1s and 2v2s of Solaris, its a very underrated mech, many people think its bad and most know it for LRMs, but its ASRM6 power combined with tanking place it way higher up than the Mad Dog at brawling if you can stand losing about 12 kph. In the 1v1s and 2v2s you could probably cut out a ton or two of ammo for some RLs for some additional burst damage.

Something like this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9ad38582905206e

Even you said the Archer wasn't ideal, but look at that potential. It seems ideal to me, not even adding on skill tree the side torsos on that thing with the 20% damage reduction have an equivalent health value to 125 while the CT has 154. Compared to the MDD-A's 91 side torso health and 120 CT health, and lower damage and more spread per shot. MDD only has more cooling compared to the Archer, though the Archer is still quite manageable as is. I'll compare the Linebacker to it if you share your build.

I remember farming Archers. It was never a serious threat then or the last time I played vs them.

The Linebacker build looked something like this:
LBK-D

I think that was the build - I forego the Artemis for just more splatammo. Splat or die.

[Deathlike]

Scout Derek, on 23 December 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

Clan mechs are at times, weaker than IS mechs. But that again, goes back on how you play them. IS mechs mostly get armor a majority of the time, and in those cases will win in extremely heavier in extremely light-weight battles. Examples Include the Viper VS Assassin, Dire Wolf VS Atlas, Urbanmech VS Arctic Cheetah.

While true to some degree, they are not weaker just by the nature of the Clan XL. Lose a side torso? You didn't die? Great! Still going like the Energizer bunny. Compare the tonnage saved from Clan XL vs STD or LFE. You can do quite a bit of stuff with that tonnage. In the case of Clans, more DHS for more sustainable DPS. IS doesn't get the fair shake. The tonnage spent for the "over-durability" isn't always well spent.

[MischiefSC]

I'll take a Huntsman vs a Bushie. In fact I do it a lot in scouting. Assassin is a lot tricker; that's an incredible mech right now. I was arguing broken hitboxes but the actual problem is that the hitboxes are so small that even with a mild lag difference it's really hard to pick a leg or side torso.

Pick a tonnage range, I'll brawl you 1 v 1 in a Clan mech equal tonnage or smaller.

Most people don't brawl in Clans because they don't have to, because the Laservomit is stupid strong. However I can say from experience that Clans are significantly stronger brawlers in almost all situations because more speed = control of engagement, faster cooling means more sustained DPS, bigger alpha means better burst.

There are no downsides to Clan mechs for brawling, range or trade. If we're brawling my weapons will hit you first almost universally. I will out-position you, I will pick when and where we fight and i'll be able to break off when I want. Unless I'm really stupid and just walk up to your face and trade it's really one-sided. Even if I do in almost every example I'm going to win anyway because bigger alpha, faster cooling.

Most people don't brawl in Clans because you can kill the enemy before they can really even hurt you with trade builds. However to say that Clans can't out brawl IS is something I can say, with comfortable certainty, is just silly.

[Kimchi4u]

As an off topic to this conversation, in accordance with the lore, shouldn't we be at the point where the IS are using captured clan mechs and the clans using captured IS mechs (or their second line mechs)? By the time the civil war tech rolled out, didn't IS start developing their own omnimechs? At this point in the timeline, I thought that the focus was more on IS vs IS and Clan vs clan.

Could we not just throw out all of the crap and say, pick whatever you want to run up to a certain tonnage?

Or am I a heathen?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 07:56 PM, said:

IIRC, I've run the Linebacker with 6 SRM6 before. It was glorious TBH (this is way prior to the SRM/Artemis nerf).

The Bushwacker gives too much in this trade. Going XL means accelerated side torso death (not hard to perform) or being slower with a STD engine. At that point, the Huntsman still have JJs to play with and still has the overall advantage while being 5t smaller.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dca9f2ecd5372e6

No XL engines on this thing, LFE going same speed as the Huntsman. Bushwacker has massive advantage in durability, gets a free alpha+ in with the dual RL20s, brings the pain with quad ASRM6 with ability to deadside.

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 07:56 PM, said:

I remember farming Archers. It was never a serious threat then or the last time I played vs them.

The Linebacker build looked something like this:
LBK-D

I think that was the build - I forego the Artemis for just more splatammo. Splat or die.

I remember mostly farming Archers too, but I *never* see anyone running them with a decent build, its always some weird stuff with like light ppcs, SN ppcs, a mix of SRMs and LRM or streaks or MRMs mixed with something, or someone trying to spam as many SRM4s as possible and overheating trying to do it. I've never seen anyone go 6 ASRM6 on an Archer.

Archer vs Linebacker, Archer gets more DPS, more sustained DPS, more alpha damage, more durability, way better spread since IS ASRMs vs Clan SRM with no Artemis, but loses out on speed. In a brawl that Archer's going to dominate.

Its honestly really weird thinking of the Archer as good though. Like everyone underestimates them because no one ever even sees them with a good build and the 70 ton SRM boat brawler role on IS is somewhat marginal with all the other brawlers that the IS has around.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

MischiefSC, on 23 December 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

I'll take a Huntsman vs a Bushie. In fact I do it a lot in scouting. Assassin is a lot tricker; that's an incredible mech right now. I was arguing broken hitboxes but the actual problem is that the hitboxes are so small that even with a mild lag difference it's really hard to pick a leg or side torso.

Pick a tonnage range, I'll brawl you 1 v 1 in a Clan mech equal tonnage or smaller.

Most people don't brawl in Clans because they don't have to, because the Laservomit is stupid strong. However I can say from experience that Clans are significantly stronger brawlers in almost all situations because more speed = control of engagement, faster cooling means more sustained DPS, bigger alpha means better burst.

There are no downsides to Clan mechs for brawling, range or trade. If we're brawling my weapons will hit you first almost universally. I will out-position you, I will pick when and where we fight and i'll be able to break off when I want. Unless I'm really stupid and just walk up to your face and trade it's really one-sided. Even if I do in almost every example I'm going to win anyway because bigger alpha, faster cooling.

Most people don't brawl in Clans because you can kill the enemy before they can really even hurt you with trade builds. However to say that Clans can't out brawl IS is something I can say, with comfortable certainty, is just silly.

The only IS mechs that can brawl clans is the Splatclops or Splatssassin. Two extremes of the pack. The IS has good brawlers, sure, but against equivalent weight mechs? The edge universally goes to the Clan.

[Deathlike]

Dakota1000, on 23 December 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dca9f2ecd5372e6

No XL engines on this thing, LFE going same speed as the Huntsman. Bushwacker has massive advantage in durability, gets a free alpha+ in with the dual RL20s, brings the pain with quad ASRM6 with ability to deadside.

Please compare apples to apples. SRM6s are not Rocket Launchers.
Even then, if everyone was "this dumb" it would be a thing in comp play right? I facepalm at that.

Dakota1000, on 23 December 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

I remember mostly farming Archers too, but I *never* see anyone running them with a decent build, its always some weird stuff with like light ppcs, SN ppcs, a mix of SRMs and LRM or streaks or MRMs mixed with something, or someone trying to spam as many SRM4s as possible and overheating trying to do it. I've never seen anyone go 6 ASRM6 on an Archer.

Archer vs Linebacker, Archer gets more DPS, more sustained DPS, more alpha damage, more durability, way better spread since IS ASRMs vs Clan SRM with no Artemis, but loses out on speed. In a brawl that Archer's going to dominate.

Its honestly really weird thinking of the Archer as good though. Like everyone underestimates them because no one ever even sees them with a good build and the 70 ton SRM boat brawler role on IS is somewhat marginal with all the other brawlers that the IS has around.

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 23 December 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

The only IS mechs that can brawl clans is the Splatclops or Splatssassin. Two extremes of the pack. The IS has good brawlers, sure, but against equivalent weight mechs? The edge universally goes to the Clan.

Johan's spot on.

The thing you forget in that slow Archer build is that speed allows a Linebacker to get in and out. Despite being over-engined, it does bring 65-tons of armor to the table vs a Huntsman, but has a lot more going for it. You're treating the Archer as if its targets are always fat and slow. Linebackers (and Assassins) with their splatbuilds are meant to give as much splat as possible while going back into cover. Of course we know that in team play, that's enough time for someone to assist in a double team vs a slower mech that is the Archer. At best the Archer needs an actual buddy to begin with to get some level of cover fire or assistance. Things get more complex from here... but the essence is that you're already in a losing battle if such a matchup is to occur.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 December 2017 - 08:54 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 23 December 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

The only IS mechs that can brawl clans is the Splatclops or Splatssassin. Two extremes of the pack. The IS has good brawlers, sure, but against equivalent weight mechs? The edge universally goes to the Clan.

Just was comparing Splatclops to that Archer that I'm theory crafting.

Cyclops side torso health is 124, Archer with the 20% reduction to damage from missile doors being closed has 125 effective health there. Archer does have 18 points less health on the CT compared to the Cyclops though. Archer also has 2 heatsinks less. Archer moves slightly faster with LFE300 compared to Cyclops with LFE375.

This Archer is looking to be a hidden gem, compares favorably to a mech 20 tons heavier than it. No one ever factors in missile bay door damage reduction into things, usually people only ever think about it on arms like the catapult, king crab, and stalker, but on STs it can be extremely useful. Just got to open them up when your missiles are ready and you want to attack then close them once you fire your shot or better yet you can actually just leave them closed since you have 6 ASRM6 and must avoid ghost heat, the missile bay door half second opening time means that you can just click and your arm guns fire then the torso ones fire perfectly on time to avoid ghost heat. This is even better.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 08:53 PM, said:

Please compare apples to apples. SRM6s are not Rocket Launchers.
Even then, if everyone was "this dumb" it would be a thing in comp play right? I facepalm at that.

Well what else do you do with that extra bit of space and weight that just perfectly fits a pair of RL20s? Do we just completely discount 80 extra damage thrown into the mix when that's over 20% of a huntsman's total armor? I rarely see huntsmen or bushwackers in comp play that are brawling.

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 08:53 PM, said:

Johan's spot on.

The thing you forget in that slow Archer build is that speed allows a Linebacker to get in and out. Despite being over-engined, it does bring 65-tons of armor to the table vs a Huntsman, but has a lot more going for it. You're treating the Archer as if its targets are always fat and slow. Linebackers (and Assassins) with their splatbuilds are meant to give as much splat as possible while going back into cover. Of course we know that in team play, that's enough time for someone to assist in a double team vs a slower mech that is the Archer. At best the Archer needs an actual buddy to begin with to get some level of cover fire or assistance. Things get more complex from here... but the essence is that you're already in a losing battle if such a matchup is to occur.

I'm just comparing mech vs mech here, if you have 2 linebackers why is there only 1 archer that you guys are double teaming? Why isn't that archer in range of his allies and why aren't those allies firing back at your linebacker? In a 1v1 the Linebacker must get into SRM range of the Archer and the Archer just has superior firepower and durability for each "trade" that they do before the Linebacker runs away again, running away doesn't really help it at all unless it needs to cool off.

[Deathlike]

Dakota1000, on 23 December 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

Well what else do you do with that extra bit of space and weight that just perfectly fits a pair of RL20s? Do we just completely discount 80 extra damage thrown into the mix when that's over 20% of a huntsman's total armor? I rarely see huntsmen or bushwackers in comp play that are brawling.

Using Mechlab damage numbers is pretty misleading (like Flamers in the actual MWO mechlab). Like all missiles, they do a lot damage on multiple things, but I don't consider it necessarily as useful as concentrated fire.

Quote

I'm just comparing mech vs mech here, if you have 2 linebackers why is there only 1 archer that you guys are double teaming? Why isn't that archer in range of his allies and why aren't those allies firing back at your linebacker? In a 1v1 the Linebacker must get into SRM range of the Archer and the Archer just has superior firepower and durability for each "trade" that they do before the Linebacker runs away again, running away doesn't really help it at all unless it needs to cool off.

For an SRM based Archer, you are not in the real position to chase anything that isn't within short range within a few seconds. A Linebacker can dictate where it wants to engage from - even if it takes some time to do just be circling around the area to attempt a backshot kill attempt. SRM Archers ideally would have to hide in the bulk of their allies before they are set to properly engage. A Linebacker has more potential to start an indirect pincer, which is a far greater benefit to the team than the Archer that is wholly reliant on cover to cover protection.

You might have the DPS, but Archers are still super fragile based on their hitboxes (similar to a Maddog) whereas the Linebacker has its choice of entry point - assuming a non-sniper friendly map (for the most part).

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

Using Mechlab damage numbers is pretty misleading (like Flamers in the actual MWO mechlab). Like all missiles, they do a lot damage on multiple things, but I don't consider it necessarily as useful as concentrated fire.

That's why I stated that the 80 damage from RLs was over 20% of the huntsman's total armor, rather than talking about any section in particular even if the rockets are obviously going to cluster around one section in particular or have a bias to the torso resulting in more than 20% of the CT armor being removed in one shot. I don't consider it close to concentrated fire either, but its like an arty strike consumable. All other things equal, the guy hit by the arty before the fight started is at a disadvantage.

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

For an SRM based Archer, you are not in the real position to chase anything that isn't within short range within a few seconds. A Linebacker can dictate where it wants to engage from - even if it takes some time to do just be circling around the area to attempt a backshot kill attempt. SRM Archers ideally would have to hide in the bulk of their allies before they are set to properly engage. A Linebacker has more potential to start an indirect pincer, which is a far greater benefit to the team than the Archer that is wholly reliant on cover to cover protection.

You might have the DPS, but Archers are still super fragile based on their hitboxes (similar to a Maddog) whereas the Linebacker has its choice of entry point - assuming a non-sniper friendly map (for the most part).

I'm thinking about this scenario in a 12 v 12 FW wave environment where one team is sending a wave of Linebackers and the other is using a wave of Archers as a counter. Can we nail down the actual perimeters of this situation so that we can be on the same page for our comparisons?

I'm doubting the fragility of the Archer, at least compared to the Linebacker. Linebacker has a huge bulbous CT that is easy to just nail repeatedly similar to an EBJ. Archer has similarly bad hitboxes but is just flat out more durable with its higher weight, quirks, and that damage reduction. If anything the Linebacker is extra super fragile if we're saying the Archer is super fragile.

[K O Z A K]

Very little can stand up to asrm40 cyclopses in the choke points on invasion maps

[Deathlike]

Dakota1000, on 23 December 2017 - 09:30 PM, said:

That's why I stated that the 80 damage from RLs was over 20% of the huntsman's total armor, rather than talking about any section in particular even if the rockets are obviously going to cluster around one section in particular or have a bias to the torso resulting in more than 20% of the CT armor being removed in one shot. I don't consider it close to concentrated fire either, but its like an arty strike consumable. All other things equal, the guy hit by the arty before the fight started is at a disadvantage.

I'll just roll my eyes on this.

Quote

I'm thinking about this scenario in a 12 v 12 FW wave environment where one team is sending a wave of Linebackers and the other is using a wave of Archers as a counter. Can we nail down the actual perimeters of this situation so that we can be on the same page for our comparisons?

I'm doubting the fragility of the Archer, at least compared to the Linebacker. Linebacker has a huge bulbous CT that is easy to just nail repeatedly similar to an EBJ. Archer has similarly bad hitboxes but is just flat out more durable with its higher weight, quirks, and that damage reduction. If anything the Linebacker is extra super fragile if we're saying the Archer is super fragile.

The only way the Archers would win in this scenario is that if they "stood their ground" the critical entry points on a brawling mech. Archers are not really designed to "catch up" with Linebackers - not that they can chase, but that makes it more difficult to provide a proper "SRM firing line" (which I don't think happens outside of old Nova-12SPL fights that got nerfed a while back).

If there potential for the Linebacker to even "get around" and generate a pincer, the Archers are going to likely fail, but this requires significant coordination on the part of the Linebacker group to actually do their job and not just attempt to hog the glory to themselves. Lob and go. That's the goal, and ideally move in a pattern to make the most of that. It's not trivial, but there's plenty more situations to expose an enemy's flank on many various maps (FP/CW or QP) instead of trying to camp out your spawn or a particular location and hope for success. Standing around in MWO has long been a recipe for failure from experience. When standing around works is if you have range (usually long) and are just spamming ERLL on targets that are unable to fire back... and that still isn't always a good solution at the highest of levels.

It's kinda like "do I want to fight the Annihilator within close range" type of answer. The answer probably lends towards a "no" for obvious reasons. The proper counter is to find the angles to shoot them at mid-to-long range. The Annihilator's speed its technically its weakness, and while it's obviously never a great idea to "make it drive" into the opponent (unless we're talking brawl), you don't attempt to exploit its strength. It's just stupid.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 December 2017 - 09:47 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Hazeclaw, on 23 December 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

Very little can stand up to asrm40 cyclopses in the choke points on invasion maps

I thought it had long been established that Invasion (Siege) maps are absolutely dreadful?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

I'll just roll my eyes on this.

I just consider the RLs to make the mech really a perfect storm combination. The armor quirks plus the RL damage end up giving the Bushwacker basically a free trade and a half off the bat in terms of how much the Huntsman has to go through to catch up with the Bushwacker. The RLs spread damage, sure, but so do the SRMs of both teams. The RL damage is going to be a bit more spread than the SRMs, but due to the sheer volume of damage, you still get approximately an extra alpha's worth of damage off the bat to where you want it if we also consider the spread of SRMs when seeing how much of their printed damage hits where you aim.

It an advantage and I don't understand why you just play it off. If we're going based on the comp builds for the Huntsman we'd be sitting here with streaks and ERLLs if we're using the WC as an example. Its clear that the situation in scouting is totally different than that in comp, and thus calls for builds that wouldn't be seen in comp. You wouldn't really feel the impact of RLs that much on the team when you have the larger teams in comp matches, but when its 4 v 4 and the enemy gets in 320 points of extra damage before closing into SRM range that's enough to flat out vaporize one of the enemy's mechs if focus fire is a thing.

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

The only way the Archers would win in this scenario is that if they "stood their ground" the critical entry points on a brawling mech. Archers are not really designed to "catch up" with Linebackers - not that they can chase, but that makes it more difficult to provide a proper "SRM firing line" (which I don't think happens outside of old Nova-12SPL fights that got nerfed a while back).

If there potential for the Linebacker to even "get around" and generate a pincer, the Archers are going to likely fail, but this requires significant coordination on the part of the Linebacker group to actually do their job and not just attempt to hog the glory to themselves. Lob and go. That's the goal, and ideally move in a pattern to make the most of that. It's not trivial, but there's plenty more situations to expose an enemy's flank on many various maps (FP/CW or QP) instead of trying to camp out your spawn or a particular location and hope for success. Standing around in MWO has long been a recipe for failure from experience. When standing around works is if you have range (usually long) and are just spamming ERLL on targets that are unable to fire back... and that still isn't always a good solution at the highest of levels.

It's kinda like "do I want to fight the Annihilator within close range" type of answer. The answer probably lends towards a "no" for obvious reasons. The proper counter is to find the angles to shoot them at mid-to-long range. The Annihilator's speed its technically its weakness, and while it's obviously never a great idea to "make it drive" into the opponent (unless we're talking brawl), you don't attempt to exploit its strength. It's just stupid.

So the linebackers winning relies on a *massive* skill indifference that allows the linebackers to not only get a pincer on the archers, but also for the archers to be unable to counter coordinate to cover eachother and fight back. Alternatively it requires the linebackers to single out one guy at a time on the edge of the enemy group who isn't within his allies firing lines and having the linebackers form a conga line of alpha strikes that fires then gets out of range quickly.

We could also come up with a counter scenario in which the Archer team is equally skilled and positions there mechs well instead of in some way that allows a pincer or conga line to work, for example using cover and standing close enough together that any enemy who is in range of one archer is in range of multiple archers. Archers really aren't cripplingly slow like an Annihilator, they can still track targets just fine and have rather average movement profiles.

Wave vs wave I'd rather be on the 12 Archer team than the 12 Linebacker team, especially if we are playing by full FW rules where the IS team would have 55 tons left over for a 4th wave mech while the clans only have 45, though honestly I'd rather just use an Assassin to counter the potential Ice Ferret kite.