1125 replies to this topic

[Johnathan Von Tanner]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

I explained why. Because we dont need to go back to that period of time where clan mechs were doing 45 damage from halfway across the map. The PPFLD sniping meta was toxic.

And I also want to nerf gauss/laser and laser vomit.

so using broken examples of gauss/laser or laser vomit as justification for why broken PPC/Gauss combos should be restored is ridiculous.

neither should exist.

Why should we all be forced to brawl and lurm?Because some people will never be able to aim? Why cant we have multiple playstyles with hard counters like we used too. PPFLD is very easy to counter.

This is a PVP shooter, while yes many lose thier matches in the mechlab, What really happens is the guy who makes a mistake 1st loses and deserves to. Because he made a mistake. Learn and re queue.

[Navid A1]

Sjorpha, on 08 February 2018 - 08:42 PM, said:

1Gauss 2PPC is very obviously not a problem, many mechs can do it and none of them was dominant in the meta before the linking.

The only potentially problematic build is Night Gyr 2Gauss 1PPC, since that was the only poptart using 3 weapons that actually was a dominant build. Now I don't feel qualified to judge if it would become a problem again or not, I want the comp folks to weigh in on that. Bad agility isn't necessarily a big drawback for static poptarting strategies, so I think it's actually possible it could become very strong again.

On the IS side I see absolutely no cause to worry about 2Gauss + 1ppc, there isn't really any good chassis that can jump high enough with that loadout on the IS side. I guess Thanatos could technically do it, but I don't think it would be a very good build

One option here is actually to increase the limit to 3 on the IS side but keep it at 2 on the clan side.

The problem with the Night Gyr was the dual gauss and dual PPC it could do. Even then one of its biggest problems was lack of speed and agility to get away from a bad situation.

Thats how PPC summoners came to power after Skill tree with agility nerfs to NTGs

[Gas Guzzler]

Sjorpha, on 08 February 2018 - 08:42 PM, said:

1Gauss 2PPC is very obviously not a problem, many mechs can do it and none of them was dominant in the meta before the linking.

The only potentially problematic build is Night Gyr 2Gauss 1PPC, since that was the only poptart using 3 weapons that actually was a dominant build. Now I don't feel qualified to judge if it would become a problem again or not, I want the comp folks to weigh in on that. Bad agility isn't necessarily a big drawback for static poptarting strategies, so I think it's actually possible it could become very strong again.

On the IS side I see absolutely no cause to worry about 2Gauss + 1ppc, there isn't really any good chassis that can jump high enough with that loadout on the IS side. I guess Thanatos could technically do it, but I don't think it would be a very good build

One option here is actually to increase the limit to 3 on the IS side but keep it at 2 on the clan side.

Nooo save the Timber!


In all honesty, if they left dual gauss single peep its fine. I've ran it on the Night Gyr for 5 matches, and I gotta say, its not prohibitively hot. I find I end up doing 3 alphas typically before I have to start consciously staggering fire, then its cool as a cucumber. So fine, leave 2 Gauss 1 PPC, but please give us back 2 PPC 1 Gauss.

[Khobai]

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Why should we all be forced to brawl and lurm?

thats not what I said at all.

I said we need to promote a balanced meta that has both sniping and brawling and ideally LRMs.


Brawling weapons have shorter range. Getting closer requires more risk. More risk should yield higher reward. So brawling builds need to have higher damage and PPFLD than sniping builds.

You want sniping builds to get the same damage/PPFLD potential as brawlers. What you want is the complete opposite of a balanced meta. You want to go back to a sniping meta. No thanks. Weve been there and it was the least fun this game has ever been.

The meta we need is a balanced meta where long range and short range coexist in harmony. So we cant have long range builds being as lethal as short range builds. Thats why gauss/PPC needs to stay where its at.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 08:55 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 08:51 PM, said:

thats not what I said at all.

I said we need to promote a balanced meta that has both sniping and brawling and ideally LRMs.

Only LRMs if they change their functionality to not be complete noob tubes as someone else put it.

But honestly you won't be happy until mid range poking is completely killed. We all know it.

[Navid A1]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 08:51 PM, said:

Nooo save the Timber!


In all honesty, if they left dual gauss single peep its fine. I've ran it on the Night Gyr for 5 matches, and I gotta say, its not prohibitively hot. I find I end up doing 3 alphas typically before I have to start consciously staggering fire, then its cool as a cucumber. So fine, leave 2 Gauss 1 PPC, but please give us back 2 PPC 1 Gauss.

I'm fine, even with 2Gauss and one ppc build.... on both clan and IS mechs

on clans, it at least requires 35 tons minus any heat sinks, and on IS side, its freakin 42 tons!!!
I'd even say that 40 damage pinpoint for those kinda tonnages should be a given!

[Khobai]

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But honestly you won't be happy until mid range poking is completely killed. We all know it.

I dont think changing ghost heat to limit laser vomit to 2 CHLL and 4 CERML is going to kill midrange poking

because thats the only nerf ive suggested to laser vomit. to link large and medium lasers so you can no longer fire more than 2 large lasers and 4 medium lasers without ghost heat.

and of course lowering CERML from 7 to 6 damage just because 7 damage for 1 ton is nuts.

So that would lower laser vomit from the current x2 CHLL + x6 CERML (78 damage) down to a more reasonable 60 damage

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 09:02 PM.

[Navid A1]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 08:51 PM, said:

thats not what I said at all.

I said we need to promote a balanced meta that has both sniping and brawling and ideally LRMs.


Brawling weapons have shorter range. Getting closer requires more risk. More risk should yield higher reward. So brawling builds need to have higher damage and PPFLD than sniping builds.

You want sniping builds to get the same damage/PPFLD potential as brawlers. What you want is the complete opposite of a balanced meta. You want to go back to a sniping meta. No thanks. Weve been there and it was the least fun this game has ever been.

The meta we need is a balanced meta where long range and short range coexist in harmony. So we cant have long range builds being as lethal as short range builds. Thats why gauss/PPC needs to stay where its at.

If you are worried about brawling then your biggest concern is ERLL spam and mid range giga-alpha gauss vomit. not 35-40 pinpoint hits every 5 seconds.


A supernova or BLR with 6 ERLLs can ruin your day from 800 meters no matter what mech you are in!

[Wodenborn]

In reply to the OP:

I fear that this initiative might be overlooked, because it is written in plain english and not in the developer's language. Developers are wonderous, ephemeral beings with the power to delight and vex us in equal measure, like the fairy creatures of olde. As such, if you want to talk to developers without scaring them off, you need talk about your feelings. This entices the developer with what they really want: your emotional investment and validation, while giving them the creative freedom to solve your problems in their own, perplexing manner.

I’ve offer a rough translation of the proposed changes, as I agree with most of them and emotional motivations behind them seem fairly obvious. Please correct me where I’m wrong.

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Process & Goals

The weapon balance suggestions outlined below are based on extensive in-game experience combined with rigorous theorycrafting on the impacts and state of each weapon. We emphasized increasing the breadth of effective playstyles, balancing by buffing wherever possible. Some weapons received “sideways” tweaks, aimed at focusing their role without affecting overall DPS. Many have been buffed extensively, all based around the current weapons at the top of the metagame. Impacts on lower tiers of play have been considered with a focus on ease of use, and the broader range of available playstyles enabled by these changes should make the mechlab a more forgiving place for less experienced players.

Translation: We are passionate about the weapon balance of MWO and want it to be the most amazing, dynamic experience we can imagine. We want all weapons to be viable, because it feels bad when we are “forced” into a certain weapon builds and it feels awesome when we combine viable weapon systems in fresh and interesting ways.

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Some issues remain outside weapon balance. In the future, we may put forth suggestions regarding quirks, agility, consumables, etc. We have elected to put our initial effort into weapon balance because it has a high impact on community satisfaction with relatively little effort required to make the changes. Global changes, such as the removal of IS Laser Range quirks in exchange for adding those bonuses into the base stats of the weapons, can certainly be discussed.
Note that this proposal is not currently final. We welcome community input on these changes, and look forward to a lively discussion.

Translation: This is far from the only MWO topic we are passionate about; this is just the beginning. We are trying to forge a consensus in the community to give you the best feedback possible.

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Energy Overview
As of the January 23rd patch, the roles and value of certain lasers remain somewhat muddy. We aim to maintain the fundamental character of each tech base while making tweaks aimed at fitting each class of laser to more clearly-defined roles, with particular focus on the value of pulse lasers vs. heavy lasers. As the strongest weapon family in the game, clan lasers were used as a general baseline for discussing changes to other systems.

Translation: Many laser systems are confusing, because they don’t seem to do anything well enough to justify taking them over the handful of good lasers.

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Standard Lasers were adjusted to provide high damage per heat for low weight. Pulse Lasers are adjusted to provide lowest durations, highest damage per tick, and good sustained DPS, balanced by high weight. Heavy Laser damage and ghost heat limits are adjusted to maintain high-alpha capability. PPCs received mixed tweaks aimed at focusing their roles and providing more useful trade-offs compared to lasers. Both Clan Micro Lasers received special attention to improve overall viability, with raised ghost heat limits.

Translation: It feels bad when my standard lasers don’t do enough damage. It feels bad when my pulse lasers don’t do enough damage. It feels bad when I overheat after struggling to get the full burn off my heavy lasers. It feels bad when PPCs perform like slower lasers. It feels bad when ghost heat prevents me from using Micro Lasers in the one kind of build they should excel at.

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Ballistic Overview
Many ballistic weapons cannot currently compete with laser-based weapons, or are sidelined by significant performance and usability problems. These changes are aimed at providing a good damage to heat ratio and a user-friendly option for sustained DPS.

Translation: It feels bad when I equip ballistic systems, because I could usually be dealing better damage, with far fewer hassles, using lasers.

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Ammunition levels have been normalized to 200 damage per ton for all Autocannons, Ultra Autocannons, and LB Autocannons. Clan Autocannons receive reductions in their projectile counts to improve precision. Ultra Autocannons receive improvements in jam chances and times to make them somewhat more reliable, balanced by increased base cooldowns to maintain their current DPS values. Standard and Ultra Autocannon 20s receive velocity buffs.

Translation: It feels bad when UACs jam. It’s such a huge pain and the damage never seems worth it, especially when the low velocity makes them so hard to use. Standard ACs don’t jam, but fire so slowly that the low velocity feels insufferable.

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RACs are currently underwhelming compared to UACs. We recommend buffed heat generation, buffed velocity to improve ease of use, and removing spread entirely to reward skilled use. Balanced by the ease of spreading constant incoming damage and the difficulty of focusing a stream of fire on target components at range. Decreased heat leaves them limited by their jam mechanic, with heat to spare for combining with other weapons.

Translation: RACs feel outright pointless. To use them, we suffer through high heat, jamming, and low up-front damage, and there is no upside.

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LBX Autocannons receive base cooldown buffs for improved DPS, balanced by their spread. LB2X and LB5X Autocannons receive spread buffs to improve their utility near optimal range. The IS LB20X receives a size reduction to 10 slots, allowing it to be used in arms and with Light Fusion Engines, bringing its trade-offs to a wider range of mechs.

Translation: LBXs are frustrating because the spread is so bad, it makes all the good things about the weapon seem irrelevant. The LB20X feels like a ripoff, since it asks so much of a build and offers little in return.

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Slightly reduced explosion chance for Inner Sphere Gauss Rifles to balance lethality of clan machine gun boats. IS Gauss Rifle cooldown buffed to improve DPS relative to smaller, lighter, clan gauss rifles. IS Machine Guns received significant base DPS increases to make them viable on hardpoint-starved IS lights and mediums. Ammunition per ton for all Heavy Machine Guns increased.

Translation: The awesomeness of machine guns (and the Piranha) have made us scared to take Gauss, for fear of exploding. IS Gauss, other than the Heavy Gauss, feel inferior to clan Gauss. IS Mechs can’t boat machine guns, and so IS dakka feels inferior to Clan. IS Ballistics feel poor and bland, lacking any unique identity.

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Missile Overview
The state of missiles is probably the best among weapon types. However, recent nerfs have reduced their effectiveness below what we consider useful.

Clan SRM4s and SRM6s receive base spread reductions, making them more viable without Artemis and providing more brawling options to Clan mechs with limited tonnage for weapons. We do not believe changes to Streak SRMs are necessary at present.

Translation: SRMs feel unfair, because the range is so short, the spread is so wide, and the damage doesn’t compensate. We want a weapon this hard to use to feel more powerful.

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Damage and heat for IS MRMs are well-adjusted at present, but their spread is large enough to make them primarily brawl weapons at present. We recommend spread buffs to improve their effectiveness near optimal range.

Translation: Too much spread can make a powerful weapon feel weak, as with MRMs near max range.

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Translation:
Inner Sphere LRMs receive heat buffs to offset their increased weight and size relative to Clan versions. Current strong IS LRM mechs usually include significant missile heat quirks, and this change will open LRM options to a wider range of chassis.

Translation: IS LRMs only feel good when using mechs quirked to optimize them. This is frustrating for players who want to run LRMs on other chassis.

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Clan ATMs are currently very strong in their lower range bracket, and while we wish to maintain this strength, we believe they’re overpowered against lights and mediums. To that end, we recommend tracking strength reductions, aimed at giving lights and mediums higher chances of successfully dodging or hiding from ATM fire. While this is a complex suggestion that would require in-game testing, and we can’t suggest hard numbers, we believe it is the best option for maintaining ATMs’ strength against harder targets while balancing their power against soft targets.

Translation: It feels unfair and unearned when my light or medium mech gets nuked by ATMs, but ATMs feels fine against heavies and assaults. This is perplexing.

Quote

To generally improve the effectiveness of missiles, we recommend buffing the Artemis bonus to 28%. This splits the difference between an old, pre-Skill Tree state (33%) and the present (25%) state. Combined with the Skill Tree’s missile spread nodes, this would restore the preexisting 33% bonus, and makes the benefit much more useful for the tonnage investment, especially for Clan SRMs.

Translation: Artemis usually feels like a bad investment. We didn’t like the pre-nerf Artemis either.

Edited by Wodenborn, 08 February 2018 - 09:11 PM.

[Khobai]

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If you are worried about brawling then your biggest concern is ERLL spam and mid range giga-alpha gauss vomit. not 35-40 pinpoint hits every 5 seconds.


A supernova or BLR with 6 ERLLs can ruin your day from 800 meters no matter what mech you are in!

yeah its true.

I said before that max ranges should be reeled in. x2 max range has always been stupid.

I have an ERLL night gyr with 1998m max range lol

+10% range quirk
+10% targeting computer
+15% range skills
740m base range * 35% range = 999m optimum = 1998m max range

bear in mind that LRMs are actually supposed to outrange ERLLs. the effective range of LRMs is what like 500m? lol. hitting anything beyond 500m is a joke because they get like 5-6 seconds to dodge the missiles.

x2 max range screwed everything up. because the longer range weapons get bigger bonuses from x2 range than the shorter range weapons. so it created this huge disparity between short and long range.

its made weapons like ERLL completely absurd

kanajashi has the right idea of increasing optimum range and lowering maximum range

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 09:13 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

You can spread the damage against a laser, sure... however, how much percentage of that you think you can divert away? 50%?

Sure, add in the fact that small targets from afar, and moving targets that the shooter has to be steady on, perhaps even more. Add in the fact that people can just choose to deadside or arm shield, you may have focused a lot of damage on a single component but maybe not the one you need to do so.

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

still more damage to a single component compared to Gauss + 2PPCs... and to top it off... with Gauss +PPC, you have to lead considering 2 different velocities.... while Gauss vomit mechs have hitscan and just need to lead one of their weapons (which usually is faster than 2k+ m/s)

I'm not going to argue about the damage alone, it's more than that, it's the PPFLD nature itself. At least Laser and Gauss Vomit poke and fade, the Gauss PPC pops and fade.

2000 and 1900 velocities ain't that far and while you could be hitting different components you are still reliably dumping a lot of damage to where the projectile hits. And consider that you have to only pop that at an instant versus beaming the target for say 1.45 seconds, the laser NEEDS a brief stare-time to do so, which gives a window of opportunity to retaliate and give a definite direction of where the beam comes from, the Gauss shell is nearly invisible, and the PPC bolt is done at an instant.

[Tlords]

My one wish... kill laser vomit. The easy fix is to link mediums and large lasers. If you fire 2 clan ERLL and 1 ERML, its the same as firing 3 ERLL.

space those shots!

[Gas Guzzler]

The6thMessenger, on 08 February 2018 - 09:09 PM, said:

Sure, add in the fact that small targets from afar, and moving targets that the shooter has to be steady on, perhaps even more. Add in the fact that people can just choose to deadside or arm shield, you may have focused a lot of damage on a single component but maybe not the one you need to do so.



I'm not going to argue about the damage alone, it's more than that, it's the PPFLD nature itself. At least Laser and Gauss Vomit poke and fade, the Gauss PPC pops and fade.

2000 and 1900 velocities ain't that far and while you could be hitting different components you are still reliably dumping a lot of damage to where the projectile hits. And consider that you have to only pop that at an instant versus beaming the target for say 1.45 seconds, the laser NEEDS a brief stare-time to do so, which gives a window of opportunity to retaliate and give a definite direction of where the beam comes from, the Gauss shell is nearly invisible, and the PPC bolt is done at an instant.

Yes that's why PPFLD is better than DoT when comparing damage 1 to 1. But when you have double damage, 30 of which is ppfld and the other 50 is lasers, its pretty clear which one is WAY better.

Pop and fade, poke and fade, sounds like kind of the same thing. The Night Gyr is so slow that its easy to out maneuver when you see one in the air. Just takes a little bit of thought, which is what we want given that this is a thinking mans shooter right? You don't just want mindless deathballing do you?

Tlords, on 08 February 2018 - 09:16 PM, said:

My one wish... kill laser vomit. The easy fix is to link mediums and large lasers. If you fire 2 clan ERLL and 1 ERML, its the same as firing 3 ERLL.

space those shots!

Sounds like a pretty dumb game.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 08 February 2018 - 09:21 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

Yes that's why PPFLD is better than DoT when comparing damage 1 to 1. But when you have double damage, 30 of which is ppfld and the other 50 is lasers, its pretty clear which one is WAY better.

Pop and fade, poke and fade, sounds like kind of the same thing. The Night Gyr is so slow that its easy to out maneuver when you see one in the air. Just takes a little bit of thought, which is what we want given that this is a thinking mans shooter right? You don't just want mindless deathballing do you?

I think it's more of the question of retaliation that just about damage. Even if you could do 50 damage with lasers, you still did 30 damage with less risk.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

its clear if you selectively ignore the fact lasers generate heat and gauss doesnt.

if youre overheating badly and an enemy mech pushes you the 30 PPFLD damage from the gauss that generates practically no heat is better than the 50 damage from lasers that would make you shut down

I'm talking about mechs that have BOTH the dual gauss and the lasers, vs mechs that are dual gauss and ppc.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

its clear if you selectively ignore the fact lasers generate heat and gauss doesnt.

if youre overheating badly and an enemy mech pushes you the 30 PPFLD damage from the gauss that generates practically no heat is better than the 50 damage from lasers that would make you shut down

I'm pretty sure that you can also use gauss with lasers.

[Cy Mitchell]

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 08:14 PM, said:

You have to remember the effect different velocities have on dual gauss, dual PPC builds.

it won't be pinpoint on a moving target if you are aiming for 700+ meters. At mid ranges... you have 80+ gauss vomit alphas that delete mechs much much more effectively than dual gauss + ppc

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 08:34 PM, said:

For example?


I'm kinda trying to find a reason a weapon combo should stay dead while we have some big offenders doing double or even triple alphas... because you can twist lasers damage..., sure you can... A gauss vomit mech still punches a 30 alpha PPFLD on your mech.... with a 50-60 damage alpha on top... even if you are a machine with instantaneous reaction time... how fast do you think your mech can twist its torso?... even if you catch 30% of that alpha damage, its already better than a SINGLE PPC!

You are also forgetting the fact that with PPCs, you can miss!... not the case with lasers!

What really bugs me about this debate is why the proposed changes do not do more to address the problem that you keep using pointing to as a reason to revert the Gauss-PPC restrictions. Laser Vomit and Gauss Vomit are a problem that needs to be addressed yet the changes to Clan lasers are pretty much insignificant. I can get behind pretty much any of the other proposals but failing to "fix" Heavy large and medium laser damage output is a major fail IMO. I just cannot wrap my head around why the people involved in this proposal ignored the elephant in the room.

Also please propose reduced UAC jam percentages for single or double UAC builds. Whatever system controls UAC boating but still allows the effective use of UACs in mixed laser/ballistic builds is fine with me.

Edited by Rampage, 08 February 2018 - 09:47 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Tlords, on 08 February 2018 - 09:16 PM, said:

My one wish... kill laser vomit. The easy fix is to link mediums and large lasers. If you fire 2 clan ERLL and 1 ERML, its the same as firing 3 ERLL.

space those shots!

I want laser vomit controlled but your proposal is way too restrictive. 2 Clan erLL and 4 erML is only 50 damage at 400 meters or so. That is actually not a problem IMO. The problem is the builds that do 150%+ of that damage at that range and even further out.

[Gas Guzzler]

The6thMessenger, on 08 February 2018 - 09:33 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that you can also use gauss with lasers.

Listen, my argument is that 2 Gauss PPC will not become a dominant force in the current game if it loses its ghost heat. Other more mobile options (Summoner) are better at it, even though the fire power is less.

But... i will concede that it is just too soon for that, so I would like to at least press for 2 PPC 1 Gauss to be allowed because it opens up a lot of options.

[Khobai]

Rampage, on 08 February 2018 - 09:39 PM, said:

I want laser vomit controlled but your proposal is way too restrictive. 2 Clan erLL and 4 erML is only 50 damage at 400 meters or so.

its 60 damage. 60 damage is fine.

CHLL x2 = 36 damage
CERML x4 at reduced damage of 6 = 24 damage
36+24 = 60 damage

The6thMessenger, on 08 February 2018 - 09:33 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that you can also use gauss with lasers.

obviously youre already using both gauss and lasers if youre in a situation where youre overheating and need to use gauss to avoid shutdown

the point was that 30 PPFLD that generates little heat is sometimes better than 50 damage that generates a moderate amount of heat.

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Listen, my argument is that 2 Gauss PPC will not become a dominant force in the current game if it loses its ghost heat.

2 clan gauss and 1 CERPPC is 45 mostly PPFLD damage how is that not dominant?

2 CERPPC and 1 clan gauss is still 45 damage too. We dont need that either.

no thanks we really dont need to go back to that. it was taken out of the game for a reason.

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Read my whole post...

no point I still wont agree with it

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 10:11 PM.