61 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

although many will claim using Agility to balance a Chassis would never work,
the NTG is(i think) a good example of how Agility can make or break a mech Chassis,
i think the NTG needs an Agility buff, i think that will help it more so than anything,

not that other mechs dont need some as well, but i think the NTG needs it more so than others,

[chucklesMuch]

Its one of the poster child mechs for UNFUN!

[Ghogiel]

I think for a lot of people it's the peep goose GH. I think it's more it moving like complete *** for me. But the GH is pretty hard on that mech particularly

[Kanil]

Nema Nabojiv, on 08 February 2018 - 05:25 PM, said:

Ambiguous advantage to my taste. You dont take assault slot, but instead of your madcat there could be lrm highlander, and all the advantage gained by having NTG is negated.

By that logic, you could take the MCII and your heavy slot could be filled by a Cataphract.

[Trenchbird]

cougurt, on 08 February 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

also i never called you an idiot, i just said that you're wrong. the night gyr was a great mech from day one, and i feel that it still is.

Ignoring this comment for inaccuracy-still mostly garbage, especially now. And you really could've been less of a jerk about it.

cougurt, on 08 February 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

i don't have any brawler night gyrs because it's not well-suited for it. you can't say the mech is bad just because it doesn't excel at literally everything. the night gyr has a distinct role, but it's very strong in that role. it's the exact opposite of something like the timber wolf, which can do just about any build, but sucks at basically all of them.

So anyways-this is mostly what I meant. I'm not saying all mechs have or must have multiple or specific roles, but it really helps the machine's popularity, and more importantly, overall effectiveness.

There is a good reason why umpteen custom configs that you normally see amongst IS 65 tonners exist-they are effective. Same with, say, the Linebacker, or the Mad Dog, or even the King Crab. Missile boats, DPS spam, laser spam, and even big AC/20 spam or twingauss+backups. They have multiple redeeming builds capable of many useful (Or terrible, let's be honest here) things.

But the Night Gyr doesn't have that-mechs do the job it did better, or there are easier side-grades, or it's just not worth trying it on a NTG anymore-it can be any one of those. You rarely see dakka NTGs because Riflemen, King Crabs, Annihilators, Maulers, Dire Wolves, can all do it better-you rarely see LRM or SRM boats because Linebackers, Mad Dogs, Supernovas, and more do it better. You even rarely see PPFLD poptart NTGs anymore because things like the Summoner, Huntsman, Hunchback IIC, and others all do it better.

I don't find it so sad because I feel the Night Gyr was a mistake of a machine, one that should never had been added to MWO-the Thresher or another random battlemech/omnimech unrelated to it should've been released. I'm almost glad I don't see it anymore. But it got stuck in the same god-awful pit as the Spider, or Banshee, or even the damned Awesome. It's a bad mech *because* others do its role far better than it did at the start, especially now. And frankly, as much as I hate it, I'm able to look past my own bias enough to say that it needs help someday. Just hope that day's after the Banshee and Awesome are good machines.

Edited by Catten Hart, 08 February 2018 - 05:53 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Kanil, on 08 February 2018 - 05:38 PM, said:

By that logic, you could take the MCII and your heavy slot could be filled by a Cataphract.

Still a net gain for the team.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ghogiel, on 08 February 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

I think for a lot of people it's the peep goose GH. I think it's more it moving like complete *** for me. But the GH is pretty hard on that mech particularly

If you build and skill it like I describe, the Ghost heat isn't that bad.

Hit the Deck, on 08 February 2018 - 05:05 PM, said:

-62 pts of heat on 15 DHS is just too hot to poptart with.....

It's sad because I like that loadout.

It's not that much. Relook at your math. I can't right now but I'm pretty sure that's wrong. It's about as hot as 2 ER PPCs and a Gauss.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 08 February 2018 - 06:22 PM.

[El Bandito]

NGyr is still a good FP mech to bring.

[Hit the Deck]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

...
It's not that much. Relook at your math. I can't right now but I'm pretty sure that's wrong. It's about as hot as 2 ER PPCs and a Gauss.

Smurphy says 61.77 heat for 3x cERPPCs (or 2x cERPPC + 1x cGauss now that they are linked): http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

The combo now creates 2 times as much heat as before....


EDIT: now I'm not sure how much heat it creates because 2ERPPC+1Gauss is hotter than 1ERPPC+2Gauss while I thought that they would create the same heat (because of them sharing the same GH).

EDIT2: using this: http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/ and 7 as the cERPPC multiplier, I got:

• 48,27 heat for 2cERPPC+1cGR
  
• 34,77 heat for 1cERPPC+2cGR

Before the GH link, it was simply 15+2 heat =17 heat for latter.

Sorry I was just wrong.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 08 February 2018 - 07:53 PM.

[Vxheous]

Catten Hart, on 08 February 2018 - 05:50 PM, said:

Ignoring this comment for inaccuracy-still mostly garbage, especially now. And you really could've been less of a jerk about it.


So anyways-this is mostly what I meant. I'm not saying all mechs have or must have multiple or specific roles, but it really helps the machine's popularity, and more importantly, overall effectiveness.

There is a good reason why umpteen custom configs that you normally see amongst IS 65 tonners exist-they are effective. Same with, say, the Linebacker, or the Mad Dog, or even the King Crab. Missile boats, DPS spam, laser spam, and even big AC/20 spam or twingauss+backups. They have multiple redeeming builds capable of many useful (Or terrible, let's be honest here) things.

But the Night Gyr doesn't have that-mechs do the job it did better, or there are easier side-grades, or it's just not worth trying it on a NTG anymore-it can be any one of those. You rarely see dakka NTGs because Riflemen, King Crabs, Annihilators, Maulers, Dire Wolves, can all do it better-you rarely see LRM or SRM boats because Linebackers, Mad Dogs, Supernovas, and more do it better. You even rarely see PPFLD poptart NTGs anymore because things like the Summoner, Huntsman, Hunchback IIC, and others all do it better.

I don't find it so sad because I feel the Night Gyr was a mistake of a machine, one that should never had been added to MWO-the Thresher or another random battlemech/omnimech unrelated to it should've been released. I'm almost glad I don't see it anymore. But it got stuck in the same god-awful pit as the Spider, or Banshee, or even the damned Awesome. It's a bad mech *because* others do its role far better than it did at the start, especially now. And frankly, as much as I hate it, I'm able to look past my own bias enough to say that it needs help someday. Just hope that day's after the Banshee and Awesome are good machines.

Nothing does dual Gauss vomit in the heavy slot better than the Night Gyr. The Banshee 3M was meta back around MRBC season 7. The Night Gyr was so good that PGI hit it with the nerf bat twice because it was the best in-slot heavy for a good 6 months. Now with the Gauss/PPC ghost heat linked, the Night Gyr can stand to have some of it's mobility nerfs rolled back, as well as the twist angle nerf undone. When you compare mechs, you have to compare them within their weight class. Saying Mauler or Dire wolf does dakka better than a Night Gyr is not a proper comparison. Night Gyr can mount far more UAC2 than a Rifleman could

Despite that, I still average 400ish match score with the Night Gyr running a mini-Deathstrike build.

Edited by Vxheous, 08 February 2018 - 07:39 PM.

[N0ni]

Ghost heat is what holds quite a few mechs back, not just the Night Gyr. Strictly talking PPC/Gauss though yes, it holds back the Dual Gauss/1 PPC and 2 PPC/1 Gauss (Jade Kite 8/8 set for closer velocity sync). Imo it should be buffed so you can take any combination of 3 of these so we can see mechs like the Timber Wolf and and Nova Cat more often, or rather just the build in general on any IS/Clan mech (especially in the day and age of dual Heavy Gauss that puts out more damage without heat).

What can be done is keep the ghost heat penalty for dual gauss/dual peep as to not take advantage in assault mechs that are capable, but what we really need is more build variety than just "how do we avoid the broken system after this round of nerfs". Night Gyr is one of those that certainly can use it given its poor agility, but a general buff would go a long way... especially for people like me who enjoy ppc/gauss (been kinda my thing since RHoD Season 1, PGI give me my enjoyable playstyle back).

[GrimRiver]

It's sluggishness is what holds it back the most.

It's still a good gunboat of it's weightclass as there isn't many clan 75ers that can pack the same amount of firepower with weight to spare.

[cougurt]

Catten Hart, on 08 February 2018 - 05:50 PM, said:

Ignoring this comment for inaccuracy-still mostly garbage, especially now. And you really could've been less of a jerk about it.

i don't see how that's inaccurate in the slightest. the night gyr was an extremely popular mech for a long time, and for good reason. obviously it's fallen out of favor somewhat, but dual gauss + lasers is still a very solid build. i don't have any experience with dakka builds on it, but they seem to be fairly effective as well.

i apologize if my initial reply came off as insulting, that wasn't really my intent.

Catten Hart, on 08 February 2018 - 05:50 PM, said:

So anyways-this is mostly what I meant. I'm not saying all mechs have or must have multiple or specific roles, but it really helps the machine's popularity, and more importantly, overall effectiveness.

There is a good reason why umpteen custom configs that you normally see amongst IS 65 tonners exist-they are effective. Same with, say, the Linebacker, or the Mad Dog, or even the King Crab. Missile boats, DPS spam, laser spam, and even big AC/20 spam or twingauss+backups. They have multiple redeeming builds capable of many useful (Or terrible, let's be honest here) things.

most mechs have a fairly limited number of builds that they can do well, i can't say i see a whole lot more variation in the 65 tonners. the linebacker has a few different builds that work, but its available tonnage limits the use of ballistics on it. the mad dog does missiles and pretty much nothing else. the king crab is the king crab.

Catten Hart, on 08 February 2018 - 05:50 PM, said:

But the Night Gyr doesn't have that-mechs do the job it did better, or there are easier side-grades, or it's just not worth trying it on a NTG anymore-it can be any one of those. You rarely see dakka NTGs because Riflemen, King Crabs, Annihilators, Maulers, Dire Wolves, can all do it better-you rarely see LRM or SRM boats because Linebackers, Mad Dogs, Supernovas, and more do it better. You even rarely see PPFLD poptart NTGs anymore because things like the Summoner, Huntsman, Hunchback IIC, and others all do it better.

since when does the rifleman do anything better than the night gyr? it doesn't have the tonnage to out-dakka it, that's for sure.

i could make the same argument in the other direction. how come you never see dakka linebackers? or laser vomit mad dogs? because other mechs do it better. long range and heavy ballistics make the most sense on the night gyr, hence why you see that more than anything else.

Catten Hart, on 08 February 2018 - 05:50 PM, said:

I don't find it so sad because I feel the Night Gyr was a mistake of a machine, one that should never had been added to MWO-the Thresher or another random battlemech/omnimech unrelated to it should've been released. I'm almost glad I don't see it anymore. But it got stuck in the same god-awful pit as the Spider, or Banshee, or even the damned Awesome. It's a bad mech *because* others do its role far better than it did at the start, especially now. And frankly, as much as I hate it, I'm able to look past my own bias enough to say that it needs help someday. Just hope that day's after the Banshee and Awesome are good machines.

i could understand if the night gyr was being outperformed by lighter mechs, but so far i've only seen people comparing it to assaults, which should tell you how goddamn strong it actually is.

i wouldn't even be opposed to a mobility buff, i just think you're crazy if you legitimately consider it a bad mech in its current state, let alone at its peak. is it the most flexible mech? no, but it's hardly alone in that respect.

Edited by cougurt, 08 February 2018 - 08:13 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Personally, I just want PPCs de-linked with Gauss and the current NTG's stats can stay as they are now.

Poptarting with Gauss+ERPPC is what makes the NTG fun! The MCII or future Blood Asp can never do this.

[Gas Guzzler]

Hit the Deck, on 08 February 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

Smurphy says 61.77 heat for 3x cERPPCs (or 2x cERPPC + 1x cGauss now that they are linked): http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

The combo now creates 2 times as much heat as before....


EDIT: now I'm not sure how much heat it creates because 2ERPPC+1Gauss is hotter than 1ERPPC+2Gauss while I thought that they would create the same heat (because of them sharing the same GH).

EDIT2: using this: http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/ and 7 as the cERPPC multiplier, I got:

• 48,27 heat for 2cERPPC+1cGR
  
• 34,77 heat for 1cERPPC+2cGR

Before the GH link, it was simply 15+2 heat =17 heat for latter.


Sorry I was just wrong.

For sure I remember it being a little more than 2 ER PPC Gauss (pre ghost heat). Its actually not too bad with skill tree, 15 DHS, and double coolshot.

[Gas Guzzler]

Vxheous, on 08 February 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

Nothing does dual Gauss vomit in the heavy slot better than the Night Gyr. The Banshee 3M was meta back around MRBC season 7. The Night Gyr was so good that PGI hit it with the nerf bat twice because it was the best in-slot heavy for a good 6 months. Now with the Gauss/PPC ghost heat linked, the Night Gyr can stand to have some of it's mobility nerfs rolled back, as well as the twist angle nerf undone. When you compare mechs, you have to compare them within their weight class. Saying Mauler or Dire wolf does dakka better than a Night Gyr is not a proper comparison. Night Gyr can mount far more UAC2 than a Rifleman could

Despite that, I still average 400ish match score with the Night Gyr running a mini-Deathstrike build.

Yeah the Gauss vomit Gyr is pretty solid, a little sluggish for my taste, but still very strong.

I was mainly focusing on what was really holding the PPC-Gauss version back with this thread.

[Troa Barton]

[Gas Guzzler]

Troa Barton, on 08 February 2018 - 11:14 PM, said:

[The6thMessenger]

I'm pretty sure that it's still decently effective at many other builds. I enjoy 3x LB10X + 5x ERSL for one 4x UAC5 or 3x UAC5 + UAC10 works well too, even 4x MPL + 2x UAC10 also works, it can even do 2x Gauss + 4x ERML or 3xERML + LPL.

[Vxheous]

The6thMessenger, on 08 February 2018 - 11:26 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that it's still decently effective at many other builds. I enjoy 3x LB10X + 5x ERSL for one 4x UAC5 or 3x UAC5 + UAC10 works well too, even 4x MPL + 2x UAC10 also works, it can even do 2x Gauss + 4x ERML or 3xERML + LPL.

2xGauss 2xERLL 2xERML works best as the gauss vomit version. I have one that's 6UAC2 still which works fine. What mildy annoys me is the D variant so much better than the other variants due to having the CT energy mount, which didn't matter as much when it was 2xGauss+ ERPPC + 2 (or 3 on D) ERML, or 2xGauss 2xERPPC. Now my A and B variants sit gathering dust, while my Prime is the dakka boat.

Edited by Vxheous, 08 February 2018 - 11:42 PM.