145 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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If you de-legitmize the vote, then what does that leave us with?
You don't like my solution for this problem, but you don't offer a better one.

What about my suggestion of a 12 damage clan gauss rifle? with rate of fire and range of a light gauss rifle.

That would allow for x3 ghost heat limit on cgauss/cerppc without it being as over the top as before

The clan gauss rifle is really the whole problem. Because its so much lighter than the IS gauss. I mean the PPFLD isnt really an issue on the IS side because of the sheer amount of tonnage it requires.

With a 12 damage clan gauss you could conceivably even unnerf some of the night gyrs agility too.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 04:12 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

What about my suggestion of a 12 damage clan gauss rifle? with rate of fire and range of a light gauss rifle.

That would allow for x3 ghost heat limit on cgauss/cerppc without it being as over the top as before

Giving the Clan Goose the same RoF as the Light Goose would be kind of unfair given that it's only one critslot bigger for the same tonnage. No, increasing the LGR to 10 damage would not fix this.

I'm not disagreeing with the weaker/faster Clan Gauss idea on principle, but the LGR has to remain even faster than a reworked CGR still unless they both dealt the same damage per slug.

[Khobai]

Quote

Giving the Clan Goose the same RoF as the Light Goose would be kind of unfair given that it's only one critslot bigger for the same tonnage. No, increasing the LGR to 10 damage would not fix this.

Its okay if the clan gauss is a little better.

I think between LGR being 10 damage and IS quirks it would be fine

The whole point is that the clan gauss shouldnt be A LOT better.


So something like:

[IS Gauss]- 15 tons, 7 crits
15 damage, 5.0+0.75 cooldown, 660m range

[Clan Gauss] - 12 tons, 6 crits
12 damage, 3.25+0.5 cooldown, 750m range

[Light Gauss] - 12 tons, 5 crits
10 damage, 3.25+0.5 cooldown, 900m range

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 04:30 PM.

[Chester Rico]

With the current mobility of all mechs (especially lights), that's a big NOPE.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

Its okay if the clan gauss is a little better.

I think between LGR being 10 damage and IS quirks it would be fine

The whole point is that the clan gauss shouldnt be A LOT better.

The LGR should have some kind of advantage (something more significant than -1 critslot) over the CGR just as the latter has some advantages over the former. Be it range, DPS, heat, whatever. But definitely not a direct upgrade.

Edited by FupDup, 11 February 2018 - 04:25 PM.

[G3 Heathen]

the twin guass ppc builds took a lot of the fun out of the game for me, the twin guass madcat II is bad enough right now.
but the ghost heat made kinda sense lorewise because both the ppc and guass use capacitors. so you would be charging and releasing the energy of 4 capacitors at once.
any how we all know what this is about, the ability to kill mechs with one shot.

Edited by G3 Heathen, 11 February 2018 - 04:28 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The LGR should have some kind of advantage (something more significant than -1 critslot) over the CGR just as the latter has some advantages over the former. Be it range, DPS, heat, whatever. But definitely not a direct upgrade.

well the LGR needs to outrange the normal gauss anyway

so range would be the obvious advantage to give it over clan gauss

[justcallme A S H]

Mech The Dane, on 11 February 2018 - 03:56 PM, said:

You postulate that the mwo forums are over-represented by competitive players. I don't think that is any where in evidence. I think that is an assumption you've made without tangible evidence to back it up. If you want to take a snap shot of everyone online in the last 24 hours, cross-reference their names with competitive leagues, and let me know how many of them are in Div A or Div B teams, I'd would be interested to know. I think many competitive players would easily assume the opposite of you though, that here on the forums they are the minority. Either way, if you actually want to prove your theory, I think you could doing the methods I indicated above.

The vast majority of Comp level players do not come to the forums... I know many, many of them... None of them post, ever.

Why?

Because you just cannot have a meaningful discussion with people that do not understand MWO, do not understand balance and cannot play and thus, think things are "unbalanced" when they are not.

[Khobai]

comp players only represent like 1% of the player base anyway

they shouldnt be making decisions for the other 99%

that whole elitest mentality is stupid. its exactly like that episode of the simpsons were mensa took over everything and failed miserably.

the goal should be to have a game thats both balanced and fun for everyone of all skill levels. That requires compromise. Where nobody gets everything they want, but the game is still better overall than it was before.

Quote

Because you just cannot have a meaningful discussion with people that do not understand MWO, do not understand balance and cannot play and thus, think things are "unbalanced" when they are not.

if comp players were allowed to balance this game it would be a ghost town within 6 months.

they would raise the skill ceiling by killing off all the weapons potatos rely on and have fun using like LRMs, bring back garbage like PPFLD poptarting, shout at everyone else to gitgud, and people would quit the game in droves. because theres never going to be a good matchmaker in this game, its a pipedream. you will always have players of mixed skill level in games, so you cant sacrifice those players' ablity to have fun.

most people play the game for fun and because of a love of giant stompy robots. they dont play it because they expect it to be difficult or competitive lmao. So everyone is equally entitled to an opinion on what they think would make the game more fun for them.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 05:13 PM.

[Ignatz22]

Mech The Dane, on 11 February 2018 - 03:56 PM, said:

If you de-legitmize the vote, then what does that leave us with?
You don't like my solution for this problem, but you don't offer a better one.

I could have just let the debate happen, with no effort to gain any sort of community consensus, and let Tarogato decide what he wants to do. But that didn't seem very... community-driven. I didn't want people to feel like their voices weren't being heard, but I also didn't want the people who made the loudest posts or biggest videos to get the best press. I wanted to give everyone a chance to have their say.

You postulate that the mwo forums are over-represented by competitive players. I don't think that is any where in evidence. I think that is an assumption you've made without tangible evidence to back it up. If you want to take a snap shot of everyone online in the last 24 hours, cross-reference their names with competitive leagues, and let me know how many of them are in Div A or Div B teams, I'd would be interested to know. I think many competitive players would easily assume the opposite of you though, that here on the forums they are the minority. Either way, if you actually want to prove your theory, I think you could doing the methods I indicated above.

As for top players having smurfs.. again IDK. I know many players in this game who have extra accounts. Some have an IS account and a Clan account, many have accounts they created just to understand the new player experience, others because previous accounts were banned or had a bad rep; point being there are many reasons for having it and to make it a competitive player only problem seems a bit of a stretch.

But really, I just end up back at my original argument. To me this seemed like the best way to actually gauge the communities feelings on this matter. To put the question to everyone here and free Tarogao's people up to continue working on other problems. I can't do better than that, I think.
If you know a better way, I'd certainly be interested.

I can't comment upon higher divisions, but as a low - tier player and primarily casual, I voted "no". I remember the days of pop - tarting Highlanders one - shot killing mechs from across the map. Keen for good players, disheartening for those of us who don't snipe. I recall how everyone hated missile boats taking out mechs from the same distances, before short -range builds could engage. Same effect, makes you want to go back to another game.
And if the developers listen to the snipers, and if the snipers them drop into the "quickplay" mode they'll pad their kills with these. Seen it before, no reason to think it won't happen now. There are too few players and too many accounts (no one mentioned the "free to play" second accounts or the multiple "I won't give PGI any money so I don't buy mechbays" multiple caccounts but YouTube has them) to think these newly approved snipers won't make playing as frustrating as being an urbanmech in a map full of LRM boats.
I guess the poll assumes the "community" knows the pros and cons of this, but I remember why this sort of thing as discouraged.
Then again, as a casual player I can always hibernate with other games for a while until the world turns.

[Navid A1]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

if comp players were allowed to balance this game it would be a ghost town within 6 months.

they would raise the skill ceiling by killing off all the weapons potatos rely on and have fun using like LRMs, bring back back garbage like PPFLD poptarting, shout at everyone else to gitgud, and people would quit the game in droves.

most people play the game for fun and because of a love of giant stompy robots. they dont play it because they expect it to be difficult or competitive lmao. So everyone is equally entitled to an opinion on what they think would make the game more fun for them.

It BECAME a ghost town a long time ago, when PGI stopped listening to comp players, and started to pander to the lowest level of skill in this game.

Ignatz22, on 11 February 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

I can't comment upon higher divisions, but as a low - tier player and primarily casual, I voted "no". I remember the days of pop - tarting Highlanders one - shot killing mechs from across the map.

There are many things that were possible in 2012 and not now.

lets talk last year before the "great" energy re-balance. Was PPC/Gauss a problem?
absolutely not.
right now JJs are not like they were in 2013, agility is lower... etc.

[BrunoSSace]

I don't want it back. I used it, it was a lame Playstyle. Plus Clans could do it so much better then the Inner Sphere. Never liked peaking and losing a quarter of my mech. Leave it dead and buried my 2 cents.

Edited by BrunoSSace, 11 February 2018 - 05:19 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

It BECAME a ghost town a long time ago, when PGI stopped listening to comp players, and started to pander to the lowest level of skill in this game.

comp players opinions were never that important. people didnt leave this game because PGI didnt listen to comp players.

besides go listen to some of the brilliant ideas comp players want like bringing back long range PPFLD, you really think that wont make players quit? lol. when you raise the skill ceiling its always going to be at the expense of someone at the bottom. And those people would rather quit than gitgud.

but the game has never really been balanced. it was just kindve something you accepted and played through. People mostly left the game because it didnt get any major content updates for over a year. and when we did finally get new content in the form of new weapons and a skill tree it was entirely disappointing. Lack of new content has been the #1 problem thats plagued this game since the start. That and more recently PGI nerfing everything constantly despite the entire community, not just comp players, telling them the nerfs were bad for the game.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 05:31 PM.

[The Lighthouse]

Dane is correct on this one. And this forum have people with far more diverse than Reddit, so it is also quite a bit fair.


And I really want to believe people would not go so low by abusing Smurf accounts.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 11 February 2018 - 05:21 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Navid A1, on 11 February 2018 - 05:14 PM, said:

It BECAME a ghost town a long time ago, when PGI stopped listening to comp players, and started to pander to the lowest level of skill in this game.

Khobai at his best. He's totally ignoring the fact the population has dropped some 25% in the last 15 months. I know he knows this, I've pointed it out many times.

But still the illogical arguments continue

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

comp players only represent like 1% of the player base anyway

they shouldnt be making decisions for the other 99%

that whole elitest mentality is stupid. its exactly like that episode of the simpsons were mensa took over everything and failed miserably.

the goal should be to have a game thats both balanced and fun for everyone of all skill levels. That requires compromise. Where nobody gets everything they want, but the game is still better overall than it was before.

if comp players were allowed to balance this game it would be a ghost town within 6 months.

1. Yet again you bring a totally made up statistic. Comp players, last season in total of Comp, was somewhere around ~1,000 from memory (could go +/- there). With ~30,000 active players in MWO month to month that means 3% comfortably. Comp players spend days, weeks, months testing builds - balance and putting in many hours to MWO

2. You don't balance any video game by the bottom of the barrell. Please provie a single game that balances from a bottom-up mentality. I mean I know you won't, you never have any evidence to back up anything you spout. You always balance from the top.

3. If you read all the threads so far and even watch the video "un-fun of MWO" by the Jarl... The game HAS become un-fun. Do you want to know who is at fault? People like you. The average-at-best who still, after 12 months of nerfs, want even longer TTK but as one example.

4. Why do you talk about "balance" without any idea what it means? I mean you complained about the heat-gen and as soon as 2 of us (myself included) provided facts / maths to back up out statements of the change being a negligeble (which it was)... You stopped posting. Presumably because you realised you were up the creek without a paddle, hell not even a boat. You were just sitting there in the creek for no reason.

I've said it before and you still have not paid attention to it, will you ever?

justcallme A S H, on 07 February 2018 - 06:05 PM, said:

Some of the usual Clan Apoligists around here need to do the same and do not derail this initiative with bottom of the barrel balance commentary or comments about things you have been proven many times, to not understand. You do not balance from the bottom, ever. Not being rude either, but this stuff needs to be fixed and it won't if it continues.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 11 February 2018 - 05:27 PM.

[Deathlike]

justcallme A S H, on 11 February 2018 - 05:21 PM, said:

Khobai at his best. He's totally ignoring the fact the population has dropped some 25% in the last 15 months. I know he knows this, I've pointed it out many times.

But still the illogical arguments continue

It's easier to write counterarguments when you ignore the facts. Ignorance is bliss, but it doesn't help the game when population shrinks consistently for one reason or another. It's easier to point out the fools that continue to think "everything is fine, the new players will be enough to replace all those that are leaving" mentality (especially this one particular fool that shall rename nameless).

Edited by Deathlike, 11 February 2018 - 05:28 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Perusing these forums it is hard to believe there is a high comp presence.

There might be tryhards, but comp players, no.

I say they should just have a tierless NHUA queue and be done with it.

[Khobai]

Quote

1. Yet again you bring a totally made up statistic. Comp players, last season in total of Comp, was somewhere around ~1,000 from memory (could go +/- there). With ~30,000 active players in MWO month to month that means 3% comfortably. Comp players spend days, weeks, months testing builds - balance and putting in many hours to MWO

the difference between 1% and 3% is entirely negligible since my point was a tiny minority should not make decisions for an overwhelming majority. 3% still constitutes a tiny majority.

Quote

You don't balance any video game by the bottom of the barrell. Please provie a single game that balances from a bottom-up mentality. I mean I know you won't, you never have any evidence to back up anything you spout. You always balance from the top.

farmville lol

I believe what I said was that balance needs to be a compromise. those were my exact words.

lots of games have weapons like grenade launchers that allow noobs to sometimes kill veteran players.

that takes the approach of balancing the game from both sides so low skill players can still have fun by sometimes taking out better players.

the game needs to be fun for players of all skill levels. thats why you need weapons with lower skill ceiling as well as weapons with higher skill ceiling.

Quote

3. If you read all the threads so far and even watch the video "un-fun of MWO" by the Jarl... The game HAS become un-fun. Do you want to know who is at fault? People like you. The average-at-best who still, after 12 months of nerfs, want even longer TTK but as one example.

I never said the game hasnt become less fun.

I just said comp players shouldnt be the only ones to decide how to make it more fun.

And how am I at fault? I have spoken out against virtually every nerf PGI has made in the last 12 months

I was against nerfing small pulse laser damage
I was against nerfing medium laser cooldowns, especially on the IS side
I was against nerfing CMPLs
I was against the way engine desync was handled
I was against all of the clan mech agility nerfs
I was against nerfing artemis and missile lockon angle

So basically I was against all of the nerfs you claim are my fault. lmao.

Quote

4. Why do you talk about "balance" without any idea what it means? I mean you complained about the heat-gen and as soon as 2 of us (myself included) provided facts / maths to back up out statements of the change being a negligeble (which it was)... You stopped posting. Presumably because you realised you were up the creek without a paddle, hell not even a boat. You were just sitting there in the creek for no reason.

I wasnt complaining about the actual heat gen changes. I was complaining because it was the wrong way to balance IS vs clan tech bases. And it set a dangerous precedent that skill points should be worth less for clans than IS.

I have continually said the best way to balance heat disparity between IS and clans is to buff ISDHS.

obviously that went way above your head like everything else.

And if you go back and actually read the thread, you would see that I did in fact keep posting. And had you actually read my subsequent post I might not have to reexplain everything to you like a child.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 05:59 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 05:42 PM, said:

farmville lol

Excellent. I was actually hoping there would be one.

Off you go. Play farmville and be happy.

You can then post unfounded drivel on forums, reddit, website to the cows come home and leave the rest of us to get MWO back to a fun FPS that rewards skill.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 11 February 2018 - 05:50 PM.