347 replies to this topic

[A1Ste4kSauce]

The game is really balanced right now. Competent IS teams will close to brawling range and annihilate clanners, especially on maps like rubellite. Clans simply can't out dps at that range. On more open maps clans still dominate though.

[El Bandito]

A1Ste4kSauce, on 12 February 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

The game is really balanced right now. Competent IS teams will close to brawling range and annihilate clanners, especially on maps like rubellite. Clans simply can't out dps at that range. On more open maps clans still dominate though.

Can't call it balanced until IS is good enough not to require that extra 25 tons. Cause QP doesn't have extra tonnage for the inferior IS mechs, so such a bandaid is stupid.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 February 2018 - 10:41 AM.

[mogs01gt]

lmao Clans > *

[sycocys]

Hobbles v, on 12 February 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

Ha. Those of us in BCMC and EVIL (probably kcom too) have actually had to remove all members of MS except for bandito and kwea from our friends lists because the rest of them dodge us.

Entirely possible, I've just never had that experience with them. If we had a group dropping and let them know they'd usually show up within a drop or two.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 12 February 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

The exact balance choices per weapon types would take too much time to write out. But I first need to correct one thing you said. Clan ballistics have better DPS/T than IS ones, not equal. A simple check on Smurphy will tell you that.

As for tech balance, not only weapons and engine, Endo/FF/DHS/CASE/BAP/NARC/AMS etc should all be addressed, as Clans currently have superior versions of them without a downside. Gotta be thorough in eliminating the imbalance.

Clan UAC vs IS UAC, the jam chances are lower on IS UACs leading to both having the same effective DPS per ton. The lower shell count per volley also gives IS higher DPS since each additional shell adds a 0.11 second delay before cooldown starts. So CAC20 would have 4.33 second cooldown while the IS one is 4, so the IS gun in this case has a 92% cooldown compared to the clan one, though that doesn't entirely make it equal in DPS/T but the pinpoint nature of it balances it out.

For UACs the clans have an extra shell, so 0.22 longer cooldown per double tap, IS jam rates are 15% while clans are 17%, and IS has a 7.5 second jam time while Clans have an 8 second jam time.

Effective dps formula is:
(((1-Jam Chance)*Double tap damage))+(Jam Chance*Single Tap Damage)) / (((1-Jam Chance)*Cooldown)+(Jam Chance*(Jam Penalty + Cooldown)))
or

IS
(((1-0.15)*40))+(0.15*20)) / (((1-0.15)*4.22)+(0.15*(7.5 + 4.22)))
Clan
(((1-0.17)*40))+(0.17*20)) / (((1-0.17)*4.33)+(0.17*(8 + 4.33)))

6.922 DPS for IS, 6.432 DPS for Clan, 15 tons vs 12, 0.462 dps/t for IS, 0.536 for clans. Basically same case as above.

I honestly forget that IS doesn't have the higher base DPS off the bat with their UACs seeing as every IS mech I boat UACs with has a 20-40% jam chance reduction along with 10% cooldown quirks. Every other time I do the math I include those so I get the real current ingame numbers between IS and Clan ballistic boats rather than the weapons in a vacuum.

[El Bandito]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 February 2018 - 10:57 AM, said:

Stuff

Yeah, you just proved that Clan ballistics do have better DPS/T, if we focus on that part.

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 February 2018 - 10:57 AM, said:

I honestly forget that IS doesn't have the higher base DPS off the bat with their UACs seeing as every IS mech I boat UACs with has a 20-40% jam chance reduction along with 10% cooldown quirks. Every other time I do the math I include those so I get the real current ingame numbers between IS and Clan ballistic boats rather than the weapons in a vacuum.

Never include quirks into the equation, cause not all IS mechs have jam reduction quirks for UACs, or energy range quirks for lasers. Including quirks into balance discussion is bad for actual balancing of the tech. Tech should be balanced first without factoring in quirks, and then quirks should be fiddled with according to the tech change.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 February 2018 - 11:06 AM.

[Requiemking]

dario03, on 12 February 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

Wait what?

Prior to April of 2016 the IS absolutely dominated the game on nearly every level. The Black Knight(which at the time was referred to as the "God Knight) was so amazingly overquirked that it allowed the IS to push the Clans right back to their homeworlds within a very short amount of time. Not only that, the Clan's had overall worse mechs in nearly every weightclass. This was especially apparent at the Assault weightclass, where not only did the IS have overquirked juggernauts in the form of the Banshee and the Battlemaster, but the roster of Clan Assaults all had some form of built in flaw that prevented them from being able to keep up, whether that was in the form of being under-engined(Direwolf and Highlander IIC), being overburdened by hardlocked equipment(Executioner, Gargoyle, Warhawk), having just plain terrible hitboxes(Direwolf and Warhawk) or some combination of the above. The only area where Clans held mechs of comparable ability was in the Medium weightclass with the Stormcrow and the Nova. Even then, the margin of power between those two Clan mechs and their IS competitors was not that great.

However, in April of 2016, two major changes occured which shifted the balance of power to be more fair. The first was that the Black Knight finally got the nerfs that were coming for it. However, in an almost ironic twist of fate, this was also the sole intelligent balancing change to ever come out of Paul's office. The Knight was nerfed, yes, but it was nerfed just enough to make it not be the sole meta choice, but it was also still competitive against the other IS laser Heavies(the Thunderbolt and the Grasshopper). The other major change was that the Kodiak was released. At the time, the Kodiak wasn't actually all that OP, in fact most of the variants were either in line with or inferior to the IS comparable(with exception to the 3).Thanks to the fact that the Kodiak was the first ever Clan Assault mech to lack a crippling built-in flaw, Clans managed to gain a slight dominance in the Assault catagory.

And thus began the most balanced period in MWO's history. The Clans were slowly pushing out of their homeworlds, and each side was balanced in terms of what weightclasses they held the better mechs in. Clans had somewhat better Mediums and Assaults(although, their capability in the Assault class was more due to the Kodiak), and IS had better Lights and Heavies. Not onyl that, but there was a balance between the weightclasses themselves. On average each weightclass had enough mobility to keep up with the weightclass directly beneath them, while having enough firepower and armour to put them down. The system cycled back upon is self at the Light weightclass, who hunted Assaults with a combination of speed, size, and fast-cycling weapons. However, this was not a hard system. You had your outliers, such as the Gargoyle, which could turn Light's own advantages against them. Also, a sufficiently skilled player could overcome the weight-class advantage through intelligent play. A skilled Medium pilot verses a less skilled Heavy pilot could win by exploiting a Mediums superior mobility to out-manoeuvre the Heavy.

The only real outlier was the Jenner "Oxide". This variant had been OP for quite some time, however it never became totally prominent till the Black Knight was nerfed. The meta drifters quickly latched on to it and defended it tooth and nail to try and avoid the same fate as the Knight. The Oxide was OP because it had stupidly high durability quirks, something a Light mech that already possessed high firepower and mobility didn't need. Most of the other players at the time, however, had already agreed that this was what needed nerfing, and were simply waiting for PGI to do the right thing.

Unfortunately, in June of 2016, came the Rescale. This patch brought heavy nerfs to the IS and the Light weightclass in general, thus laying the foundation for what the game has become today. The Kodiak-3 became OP because it's primary competition got heavily nerfed, the Timby and Cheeto rose to dominance because all their competitors were brutalised, and the game became heavily weighted towards the Clans.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 12 February 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

Yeah, you just proved that Clan ballistics do have better DPS/T, if we focus on that part.

Never include quirks into the equation, cause not all ballistic IS mechs have jam reduction quirks.

Why use an IS mech not quirked for UACs to use UACs on? Would be like solely laser boating in a Dire Wolf, sure it can do it, but there's much better platforms to do it on. I really honestly, just cannot see the reasoning behind balancing things in a vacuum, it doesn't take into account any of the complexities of balance that arise from how things interact with eachother. This game has loads of different mechs with different hardpoint locations and different quirks. There's lots of nuance to balance, between different mobility levels of each mech, all the hitboxes, the hardpoint heights compared to cockpit height, how each weapon's soft stats affect their hard stats, even the skill tree which gives IS higher cooldown buffs, heat buffs, and duration buffs than Clan.

Rather than just looking to balance tech one for one, which I feel would totally invalidate lots of mechs and cause further unbalance unless there is a total overhaul of quirks, the skill tree, faction play tonnage, and all the equipment. I suggest just overhauling quirks in the first place so that lower performing mechs get some boosts they need.

[El Bandito]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 February 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

Why use an IS mech not quirked for UACs to use UACs on? Would be like solely laser boating in a Dire Wolf, sure it can do it, but there's much better platforms to do it on. I really honestly, just cannot see the reasoning behind balancing things in a vacuum, it doesn't take into account any of the complexities of balance that arise from how things interact with eachother.

Because balancing things in a vacuum is the best way to bring more stable and accurate balance. Quirks can be adjusted afterwards. Without base tech balancing, we had three years of PGI's fail attempt at quirk bandaging. That should not continue.

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 February 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

Rather than just looking to balance tech one for one, which I feel would totally invalidate lots of mechs and cause further unbalance unless there is a total overhaul of quirks, the skill tree, faction play tonnage, and all the equipment. I suggest just overhauling quirks in the first place so that lower performing mechs get some boosts they need.

Total overhaul is needed for this game for the longest time. Quirk overhaul will simply repeat PGI's folly for the last three years. Techs must be balanced against each other. Especially the most important ones such as engines, and upgrades such as Endo/Ferro.

After that, quirks can be added to the under performers. Instead of many mechs becoming invalidated, we will have many mechs becoming useful.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 February 2018 - 11:18 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 12 February 2018 - 11:16 AM, said:

Because balancing things in a vacuum is the best way to bring more stable and accurate balance. Quirks can be adjusted afterwards. Without base tech balancing, we had three years of PGI's fail attempt at quirk bandaging. That should not continue.




Total overhaul is needed for this game for the longest time. Quirk overhaul will simply repeat PGI's folly for the last three years. Techs must be balanced against each other. Especially the most important ones such as engines, and upgrades such as Endo/Ferro.

After that, quirks can be added to the under performers. Instead of many mechs becoming invalidated, we will have many mechs becoming useful.

I have my doubts that PGI can manage to balance the tech bases flat out seeing as they can't even add some quirks to mechs that haven't been meta for 3 years. Looking at the poor Stalker now.

[El Bandito]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 February 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

I have my doubts that PGI can manage to balance the tech bases flat out seeing as they can't even add some quirks to mechs that haven't been meta for 3 years. Looking at the poor Stalker now.

They'll have to balance the tech if they wish to sell more IS mechpacks. Recent IS mechs have not been selling well, I think. Hellspawn, Osiris, Thanatos, Nightstar, Uziel... all rarely seen. PGI is basically throwing away potential revenue by ignoring tech imbalance issue.

[Kanil]

Requiemking, on 12 February 2018 - 11:04 AM, said:

The other major change was that the Kodiak was released... And thus began the most balanced period in MWO's history.

Yeah, quad UAC/10 Kodiak was literally the most balanced thing ever.

[dario03]

Requiemking, on 12 February 2018 - 11:04 AM, said:

Prior to April of 2016 the IS absolutely dominated the game on nearly every level. The Black Knight(which at the time was referred to as the "God Knight) was so amazingly overquirked that it allowed the IS to push the Clans right back to their homeworlds within a very short amount of time. Not only that, the Clan's had overall worse mechs in nearly every weightclass. This was especially apparent at the Assault weightclass, where not only did the IS have overquirked juggernauts in the form of the Banshee and the Battlemaster, but the roster of Clan Assaults all had some form of built in flaw that prevented them from being able to keep up, whether that was in the form of being under-engined(Direwolf and Highlander IIC), being overburdened by hardlocked equipment(Executioner, Gargoyle, Warhawk), having just plain terrible hitboxes(Direwolf and Warhawk) or some combination of the above. The only area where Clans held mechs of comparable ability was in the Medium weightclass with the Stormcrow and the Nova. Even then, the margin of power between those two Clan mechs and their IS competitors was not that great.

However, in April of 2016, two major changes occured which shifted the balance of power to be more fair. The first was that the Black Knight finally got the nerfs that were coming for it. However, in an almost ironic twist of fate, this was also the sole intelligent balancing change to ever come out of Paul's office. The Knight was nerfed, yes, but it was nerfed just enough to make it not be the sole meta choice, but it was also still competitive against the other IS laser Heavies(the Thunderbolt and the Grasshopper). The other major change was that the Kodiak was released. At the time, the Kodiak wasn't actually all that OP, in fact most of the variants were either in line with or inferior to the IS comparable(with exception to the 3).Thanks to the fact that the Kodiak was the first ever Clan Assault mech to lack a crippling built-in flaw, Clans managed to gain a slight dominance in the Assault catagory.

And thus began the most balanced period in MWO's history. The Clans were slowly pushing out of their homeworlds, and each side was balanced in terms of what weightclasses they held the better mechs in. Clans had somewhat better Mediums and Assaults(although, their capability in the Assault class was more due to the Kodiak), and IS had better Lights and Heavies. Not onyl that, but there was a balance between the weightclasses themselves. On average each weightclass had enough mobility to keep up with the weightclass directly beneath them, while having enough firepower and armour to put them down. The system cycled back upon is self at the Light weightclass, who hunted Assaults with a combination of speed, size, and fast-cycling weapons. However, this was not a hard system. You had your outliers, such as the Gargoyle, which could turn Light's own advantages against them. Also, a sufficiently skilled player could overcome the weight-class advantage through intelligent play. A skilled Medium pilot verses a less skilled Heavy pilot could win by exploiting a Mediums superior mobility to out-manoeuvre the Heavy.

The only real outlier was the Jenner "Oxide". This variant had been OP for quite some time, however it never became totally prominent till the Black Knight was nerfed. The meta drifters quickly latched on to it and defended it tooth and nail to try and avoid the same fate as the Knight. The Oxide was OP because it had stupidly high durability quirks, something a Light mech that already possessed high firepower and mobility didn't need. Most of the other players at the time, however, had already agreed that this was what needed nerfing, and were simply waiting for PGI to do the right thing.

Unfortunately, in June of 2016, came the Rescale. This patch brought heavy nerfs to the IS and the Light weightclass in general, thus laying the foundation for what the game has become today. The Kodiak-3 became OP because it's primary competition got heavily nerfed, the Timby and Cheeto rose to dominance because all their competitors were brutalised, and the game became heavily weighted towards the Clans.

The KDK3 was completely OP as soon as it came out. Banshees and Battlemasters were already OP and even they were no match against the KDK3. There was also way to big of a gap between the top few mechs and the rest. Which is why the Oxide was considered so good, it really wasn't even that great compared to the top heavies and assaults, but compared to any other light it was the terminator. IS vs Clan balance might have been some what ok (depending on how you judge that) but as a whole, the game was not balanced.

I agree about the re scale throwing things off more though.

Edited by dario03, 12 February 2018 - 12:57 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 12 February 2018 - 11:23 AM, said:

They'll have to balance the tech if they wish to sell more IS mechpacks. Recent IS mechs have not been selling well, I think. Hellspawn, Osiris, Thanatos, Nightstar, Uziel... all rarely seen. PGI is basically throwing away potential revenue by ignoring tech imbalance issue.

I have ceased buying any packs at all because of this issue. I wanted to buy a Piranha pack, but as long as PGI continues to release poor-performing IS 'Mechs while releasing paradigm-shifting Clan 'Mechs, I ain't buyin'. They've completely obsoleted the Spider 5K, the Locust 1V/3V, and even the still-fresh MLX and ACH variants are feeling a little burned.

[Bud Crue]

Requiemking, on 12 February 2018 - 11:04 AM, said:

Prior to April of 2016 the IS absolutely dominated the game on nearly every level.

I feel like this is a wee bit disingenuous.
When was Tukayyid 1? What followed? A map reset.
So from January 2016 (I think Tuk 1 was in November or December 2015) until April you are in effect arguing that because the IS managed to take a handful of clan worlds (remember the map reset) and that translates to the “IS absolutely dominating”? I don’t think so. Even when the BK was the clan boogy man it was a match for the brawling Timber but neither it nor the OP Oxide was allowing the IS absolute domination at the time you are asserting. Well at least not in faction play.

[Tarl Cabot]

Kanil, on 12 February 2018 - 12:44 PM, said:

Yeah, quad UAC/10 Kodiak was literally the most balanced thing ever.

UAC/10 ghost heat mechanics was itself broken, reported by still stayed broken for several years. It took the introduction of the Kodiak with its high hardpoint locations as a CLAN BATTLEMECH instead of an OMNI to really make it shine, and stayed that way for sometime. Once PGI DECIDED to make changes it took many patches to work out the bugs followed by PGI piling more restrictions on top of it while making changes to Kodiak itself.

The Kodiak-UAC10 sorta falls in the same line as the Highlander/Victor (first assaults to go live w/JJ) era, pop-tarting and GR/PPC/AC5 era. PGI practically neutered JJ primarily for most heavies/assaults as well as made massive changes to GR/PPC/ballistics (extremely fast to slower velocities, charge ups, etc), ... The only real issues I really disliked was how severe JJ were neutered for all assaults and many heavies using all available JJ. But that is another thread.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 12 February 2018 - 01:38 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Bud Crue, on 12 February 2018 - 01:16 PM, said:

I feel like this is a wee bit disingenuous.
When was Tukayyid 1? What followed? A map reset.
So from January 2016 (I think Tuk 1 was in November or December 2015) until April you are in effect arguing that because the IS managed to take a handful of clan worlds (remember the map reset) and that translates to the “IS absolutely dominating”? I don’t think so. Even when the BK was the clan boogy man it was a match for the brawling Timber but neither it nor the OP Oxide was allowing the IS absolute domination at the time you are asserting. Well at least not in faction play.

I remember the old days arguing that Black Knight vs Timber Wolf, the BK would kill a TW CT before the TW could take out a side torso on the XL based builds mathematically speaking, then on top of that the BK had way better hitboxes and could run STD engine builds without much trouble.

[Jay Leon Hart]

For anyone who truly thinks the sides are balanced, or that IS is stronger than clan, I challenge you to do what I did.

Take 1 full season of playing one faction in solo QP, with one type of build. Lasers, PPCs, dakka, splat, gauss vomit, whatever. Pick a few 'mechs and only play them for the full season. Next season, repeat with similar builds at similar chassis weights with the other faction. Then, compare the results.

[naterist]

reset the tonnages and then see whos getting rolled. IS only succeeds because they can bring big mechs in bulk. take away the weight advantage and theyll have nothing.

[GrimRiver]

Yup, I remember when IS won EVERY event since this game came out...

...Wait, what's that? IS never won anything and all the top tier mechs were mostly clan and it took new tech to "almost" equal the playing field you say.

It seems clanners never want to give IS a chance to actually put some hurt out for a change after being on the blunt end for the past 3 years.