97 replies to this topic

[LowSubmarino]

UnofficialOperator, on 20 February 2018 - 09:44 PM, said:

Weapons or mechs are balanced?

That gameplay automatically improves???

Nothing will change if the fake terribad T1 players are still stuck in T1 who have no basic idea of how to play.

I just saw 1 beat up enemy mech (82 percentile player) take on 3 mechs (34 percentile player with fresh HBR [because LL sniping], 32 percentile player with fresh Jag, 89 percentile player with 1 laser left in Blanner) & fight to a draw in assault because

1. our pair of fake T1s couldn't aim at all except for the beat up 89% player with his 1 laser
2. our pair of 30% players have no concept of torso twisting so they took in focused shots from the enemy mech
3. enemy mech was torso twisting and just trying to survive.

Ends up enemy mech kills fresh HBR first then hunts down the last 2 trying to cap. 1 laser guy dies first face tanking. Jag runs out of weapons. Enemy would have won too if not for timer.

TLDR: GAMEPLAY CAN ONLY IMPROVE ONCE EVERYONE IS IN THEIR RIGHT TIER FIGHTING THEIR CORRECT SKILL LEVEL OPPONENTS. SOMETIMES I WONDER WHETHER ITS A CONSPIRACY NOT TO FIX TIERS AND PSR.

I feel as frustrated as you.

For both sides.

Some ppl somehow land in Tier 1 and it is obvious they havent played that much and they often times dont even turn when you stand right behind them and shoot them in the back. I mean, how is that even possible. To land 3 alphas in like 10 seconds and they dont turn. And, no. That happens not very rarely haha. It happens. A lot.

And for those that are rather new and didnt accumulate a lot of experience it will be totally frustrating as well.

Whats worse than all the above (and the not) mentioned, is that newer/less experienced players are so bad at positioning that they basically suicide without wanting to suicide.

A tutorial must address positioning and show some examples of formation and underline multiple times, in easy to grasp, funny and good vidoes/tutorials that you die, just like that, over and over again, if you just wander about aimlessly. If ppl melt in the first 60 seconds then something is just off.

Thats like you play grandmaster sc2 level and the players suddenly stop walling their base vs early pool, never scout and do the most basic mistakes. It diminishes the experience and quality of encounters so greatly, that that in itself is a major contributor for the hostility you experience often times ingame.

Both sides are frustrated, cause you are stuck in that team and you just see them stretch over and over again or die to the most basic strategies.

Honestly...

And im being totally serious right now but it would be interesting what others think about that, but....

Personally, I would much, much rather wait 3 times as long for games and just listen to music or check out stuff online that im interested or what have you, while I wait longer - even considerably longer - but then have much more balanced teams with at least somewhat roughly skill level.

Cause I just had 3 matches in a row which were complete slaugthers. Enemy team kill 0, 1 and 1 mechs. I dont even know why we lost that one mech in the last game. Evybdoy wanted to greedily get the last kill and one guy with cherry red XL side torso was a little over confident and ran right in front of an ac 20 build.

But, yeah.....Im totally on your side.

As it is now the Tiers are very bad.

[JC Daxion]

UnofficialOperator, on 21 February 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

Nope. Low ping helps a lot in this game for people close to the servers. There is no lag compensation unlike other FPS like COD (which comes with its own set of problems). Lag shield only happens when you reach like 400 ping and above I believe and I've only ever seen a few players do that.

A 10 to 20 ping player sees a 250 ping player about 0.5s in advance and the hit reg is fine (I have 6 to 12 ping on Oceanic sometimes). That is 1 of the reasons why some people peek around corner and feel that they insta died when in fact they were seen way in advance. I think not many people know this about low ping players. Anyway I very seldom play Oceanic anymore because it feels unfair. With a very low ping in Oceanic, it feels like being Neo in the Matrix and I literally get bullet time. I have no issues fighting lights which come in very high pings on Oceanic. Where I shoot, I get. Not so for other servers. So I'm pretty sure your theory is wrong about frames or whatnot. (Oh and I get a min of 60 to 90 ish fps but unfortunately its on a 60 hz monitor

That is just not my experience at all.. When i am fighting fast lights, and i am having huge trouble hitting them 99% of the time it's because they have super high ping. When you combine my dips in frames and their ping is high things get out of wack. I can visually see this in game, and EVERY time i check scoreboards sure enough it's high ping on their side. It can get so that in matches i basically will just give up even bothering trying to hit said mech unless i have lock on weapons. I've even seen mechs warp, or freeze frame.. while all the other mechs are moving just normal. I've never seen a low ping player warp, it's always +350 players.

this game has a thing called hit-rewind. Someone can explain to you how it works, i don't know the whole deal, all i know is there are issues with high ping light players. The issue does not show up with slower mechs, only the fastest of the lights.

In most matches i win the "low ping" mini-game.. I have a very solid connection that dips even bellow 20 at times.. I can't stand trying to kill locusts with a +250 or 300.. Its a thing trust me. Maybe it wouldn't be if i had a computer that could sustain 60 FPS with no dips.. But seeing i don't it's an issue.


As for your 20 ton mech doing high damage.. i already stated it is one of the best lights in the game, i don't care how much it weights.

Edited by JC Daxion, 22 February 2018 - 04:44 AM.

[Cnaiur]

JC Daxion, on 21 February 2018 - 07:16 PM, said:

But it does.. If he is in T3... and the gates are opening because of low pop times that is a thing that you need to deal with. The player pop is to low in this game at certain times and people can end up in those matches..

again.. if top players want to play with top players verse top players they really need to play in groups, or one of the many leagues that run in this game. There are plenty out there.

Deal with it how? If the problem is one of low population, the only solutions are to either increase the population or subject people to longer wait times. But the problem isn't wholly one of low population because there are plenty of bad players in T1/2.

The idea that "if good players want decent MM they should ********** to comp queue" is simply offensive. QP is, and should be, for everyone. Besides, I'm far from a top player and getting lumped in with the bottom 40% players bothers and frustrates me. As others have pointed out, and as anybody with a T4/5 alt can see for themselves, the current system does little more than separate the new players and the absolute worst players from everybody else.

Quick story time. Last night I drop in my terrible unskilled trebuchet to get my win of the day. And I see an EmP player on the other team. He's in a carry hard mech, he carries hard, and we lose handily. Let's try again! Next match, same guy on the other team, same exact result. Third times a charm I guess? Yes, this time he's on my team! Same result yet again except I'm on the winning side. Every match the EmP player put up a match score well over 600. He was utterly dominant.

Sad and a couple drinks in, I switch to my T4 alt, play 3 matches in a mostly skilled Huntsman and dominated all 3. Lost one match but still did 800 damage with a 500 match score and didn't die. My point? The skill disparities in this game are VAST and are largely ignored by the MM once you get past the T4/5 basement.

[JC Daxion]

Cnaiur, on 22 February 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

Deal with it how? If the problem is one of low population, the only solutions are to either increase the population or subject people to longer wait times. But the problem isn't wholly one of low population because there are plenty of bad players in T1/2.

The idea that "if good players want decent MM they should ********** to comp queue" is simply offensive. QP is, and should be, for everyone. Besides, I'm far from a top player and getting lumped in with the bottom 40% players bothers and frustrates me. As others have pointed out, and as anybody with a T4/5 alt can see for themselves, the current system does little more than separate the new players and the absolute worst players from everybody else.

Quick story time. Last night I drop in my terrible unskilled trebuchet to get my win of the day. And I see an EmP player on the other team. He's in a carry hard mech, he carries hard, and we lose handily. Let's try again! Next match, same guy on the other team, same exact result. Third times a charm I guess? Yes, this time he's on my team! Same result yet again except I'm on the winning side. Every match the EmP player put up a match score well over 600. He was utterly dominant.

Sad and a couple drinks in, I switch to my T4 alt, play 3 matches in a mostly skilled Huntsman and dominated all 3. Lost one match but still did 800 damage with a 500 match score and didn't die. My point? The skill disparities in this game are VAST and are largely ignored by the MM once you get past the T4/5 basement.

It is for everyone and taht is exactly why you are not going to always play with great players in great mechs. and you are not always going to get to play with top players in QP.. So deal with it personally, with yourself..


We all know that if you only want to play with top players there is only one way to do that, and there is no MM changes that PGI can or is willing to do to make that work. And yes, you stated exactly the issue, there is a large skill disparity in this game. The only way to always play with skilled players is to make your own group. We all know that.

Edited by JC Daxion, 22 February 2018 - 07:10 AM.

[Cnaiur]

You're attacking a straw man. Nobody expects to only play with "great players in great mechs" in QP. But I don't think it's unreasonable to want or hope for better MM than we're currently getting; one where top 0.1% players aren't routinely lumped in with bottom 40% players. And I'm not going to stop talking about it or bringing it up; that's how I deal with it. I suggest you learn to deal with that.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Some ppl somehow land in Tier 1 and it is obvious they havent played that much

No, what's the horrifying thing is realizing these people have played, played LOTS.

And learned nothing, yet the tier bar creeps ever higher. That's why they're so bad and in T1 in the first place, it's mostly a "I played lots" bar. They were never required to git gud when they went from T5 to T4, they weren't even required to get better.

And worst of all, it tends to reinforce the horribly gameplay they produce is actually a GOOD thing, which is why that guy with the double-digit damage in his CAC2/CAC5 Dire Wolf will vehemently protest you saying a word otherwise.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 22 February 2018 - 03:12 PM.

[MischiefSC]

1. Good balance helps everyone. It reduces the gap between top meta and a regular 'good' build. Yes, there will always be terrible choices (nothing but TAG, etc) but broadening the range of what works puts more total options on the table and leans more into skill in the match than skill in the mechlab.

2. You always need better matchmaking - to a point. There should always be a challenge and a motivation to improve. You should consistently play with and against people better than yourself. That's going to help you get better in turn and motivate you to do so. An environment where you only ever play with and against people exactly at your skill level just promotes stagnation. People can do to that in single player games.

Hopefully the people who played poorly feel bad about playing poorly and put in the effort to improve. Everyone moves along that path of development, we were all bad at the game at one point. Some still are.

I'm not in favor of a 'shark tank'. That just makes people who are bad and unwilling to improve a lodestone that everyone is obligated to carry. I would much, *much* rather have a good viable Elo style system, break rankings into tiers and increase rewards as you move up in tiers. I know that's going to generate a bit of rage - personally I have more cbills, mc, XP/GXP/Skill Points than I will ever use. However this game is a team game. 12 v 12. People who consistently play poorly and do not improve make the game worse for other players. This isn't a SP game where it doesn't matter; it's just yourself. Someone who is bad and unwilling to stop being bad and improve is a net negative to the game. You can't even say 'well what if they pay money' as a justification - their negative impact on the game over time without question reduces population which in turn absolutely reduces revenue.

MW5 is my biggest hope for MWO. Everyone who really, at the core of it, should be in a SP game can go do that and MWO can drill down on being a team based PvP environment.

Solaris is irrelevant. It's going to be a glorified Comp Queue and if you're not using a good gaming mouse and playing a very well tuned 1 v 1 dueling mech you're going to get wrecked 90% of your matches which will push the great majority of players out of it. It's also going to be a super, super, super shallow environment. Nothing you can play for long stretches like MWO is currently. I'll probably do some games in Solaris periodically but it in no way, shape or form would keep my interest as a gamemode for MWO. I know i'm not alone there.

[Lazor Sharp]

This ^^^^

My Hope is PGI makes MW5 as much of a Training Grounds for MWO as possible..... Lets the uber casual PPL have a easy mode PvE sand box to play in, and new PPL a place to learn the basics, before playing PvP MWO.....

Solaris will not be great for Casual players, as they will get stomped repeatedly, and then avoid it like the Plague.......
After the new shininess wares off, Solaris will have a very limited participation, only the top 25 or so on each leader board will get any fun out of it.......

[Throe]

"True" balance isn't so objective. The hope is that the game can be balanced enough so that a variety of load outs and play styles can be feasible on the battle field.

To some degree, this is the case right now, but most folks are of the opinion that we've had better, briefly just before all the big changes last year(engine desync, new skill tree, laser "rebalance", new tech).

The Meta will always be there, but it should never be so strong as to invalidate all other builds.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Throe, on 22 February 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

"True" balance isn't so objective. The hope is that the game can be balanced enough so that a variety of load outs and play styles can be feasible on the battle field.

To some degree, this is the case right now, but most folks are of the opinion that we've had better, briefly just before all the big changes last year(engine desync, new skill tree, laser "rebalance", new tech).

The Meta will always be there, but it should never be so strong as to invalidate all other builds.

There's never really a way to totally invalidate all the other builds, at least as long as the matchmaker is the way it is. As it is, if you have to skill for it you can likely carry in a build that's outright terrible. If the matchmaker is tightened so that you actually have equal competition on both sides then we'd also need to balance the teams based on builds too, because one guy bringing a "fun" build instead of ready to do his best is going to get the team rolled.

[Yosharian]

Still waiting to see the confirmation that these 34th percentile players are actually in T1

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yosharian, on 22 February 2018 - 07:09 PM, said:

Still waiting to see the confirmation that these 34th percentile players are actually in T1

The issue here isn't their tier. The issue is that they're in the same match as people in the top 20% while being in the bottom 40%. Tier system is almost entirely irrelevant and could just be replaced by player percentile based matchmaking for better matches.

[Yosharian]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 22 February 2018 - 07:12 PM, said:

The issue here isn't their tier. The issue is that they're in the same match as people in the top 20% while being in the bottom 40%. Tier system is almost entirely irrelevant and could just be replaced by player percentile based matchmaking for better matches.

> The issue is that they're in the same match as people in the top 20% while being in the bottom 40%.

Which could only happen if they were in high tier?

Which I'd like to see proof of?

It's not irrelevant.

If a 34th percentile player can get into T1 then the system is truly broken.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yosharian, on 23 February 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

> The issue is that they're in the same match as people in the top 20% while being in the bottom 40%.

Which could only happen if they were in high tier?

Which I'd like to see proof of?

It's not irrelevant.

If a 34th percentile player can get into T1 then the system is truly broken.

You didn't seem to understand. I said that the tier system itself is irrelevant, as in its broken and useless, then gave a replacement option for it. I'm agreeing with you.

[Mystere]

Yosharian, on 23 February 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

If a 34th percentile player can get into T1 then the system is truly broken.

Only if you're equating being T1 with skill. However, I do not think so.

[Khobai]

Quote

You didn't seem to understand. I said that the tier system itself is irrelevant, as in its broken and useless, then gave a replacement option for it. I'm agreeing with you.

the tier system does exactly what its supposed to do. it separates new players from veteran players.

thats literally its only purpose: to ease new players into the game.

Quote

Only if you're equating being T1 with skill. However, I do not think so.

exactly. T1 doesnt mean skilled. It just means not a completely new player lol

Edited by Khobai, 23 February 2018 - 06:14 PM.

[Yosharian]

It's not broken and useless if a 34th percentile player can't be in Tier 1.

It is broken and useless if a 34th percentile player can be in Tier 1.

You're stating that Tier 1 doesn't mean skilled, I'm asking for the evidence. One screenshot of match score isn't evidence, a leaderboard screenshot clearly showing a Tier 1 player in the 34th percentile is.

[Shadowomega1]

LowSubmarino, on 22 February 2018 - 01:03 AM, said:

I feel as frustrated as you.

For both sides.

Some ppl somehow land in Tier 1 and it is obvious they havent played that much and they often times dont even turn when you stand right behind them and shoot them in the back. I mean, how is that even possible. To land 3 alphas in like 10 seconds and they dont turn. And, no. That happens not very rarely haha. It happens. A lot.

And for those that are rather new and didnt accumulate a lot of experience it will be totally frustrating as well.

Whats worse than all the above (and the not) mentioned, is that newer/less experienced players are so bad at positioning that they basically suicide without wanting to suicide.

A tutorial must address positioning and show some examples of formation and underline multiple times, in easy to grasp, funny and good vidoes/tutorials that you die, just like that, over and over again, if you just wander about aimlessly. If ppl melt in the first 60 seconds then something is just off.

Thats like you play grandmaster sc2 level and the players suddenly stop walling their base vs early pool, never scout and do the most basic mistakes. It diminishes the experience and quality of encounters so greatly, that that in itself is a major contributor for the hostility you experience often times ingame.

Both sides are frustrated, cause you are stuck in that team and you just see them stretch over and over again or die to the most basic strategies.

Honestly...

And im being totally serious right now but it would be interesting what others think about that, but....

Personally, I would much, much rather wait 3 times as long for games and just listen to music or check out stuff online that im interested or what have you, while I wait longer - even considerably longer - but then have much more balanced teams with at least somewhat roughly skill level.

Cause I just had 3 matches in a row which were complete slaugthers. Enemy team kill 0, 1 and 1 mechs. I dont even know why we lost that one mech in the last game. Evybdoy wanted to greedily get the last kill and one guy with cherry red XL side torso was a little over confident and ran right in front of an ac 20 build.

But, yeah.....Im totally on your side.

As it is now the Tiers are very bad.

The problem is you can teach people about positioning and show example of good areas to take up, yet most of the time it still doesn't sink in. This failure either comes a lack of willingness to learn or a massive ego that tells them, that their position/strategy always right even when it fails ever time they try it.

Will ask this to everyone how often do we see people on River City nascar on the citadel drop down to kill that one assault mech that fell behind only to have the entire enemy team take the top and have free rain over those that dropped down?

How often do we see people fail to take the top on HPG and nascar to the low ground leaving the other team to take the high ground?

We see this way to much it is always the same people that keep doing this and causing outright issues for the rest of the team. These same people also refuse to listen to VOIP or even read text chat when good position is pointed out or even respond to enemy location intell. Yet when called out on their bad move, they defend their action by calling those who set a good plan/position for the team to fire from salty or buthurt. The one that comes to mind from today when I said "I'm getting tired of all these pos players that don't listen, all of them need to be returned to Tier 5" the response was "Get use to it."

If the devs could come up with a system that could calculate a players skill and balance the teams around that game play enjoyment will go up and anger will drop. However, I don't think that is likely. Though I do hope they can at least come up with something that put all the players are should know better but still keep being piles of rubbish get their own little teir so that no skilled player ends up being place on their team and they will either face other rubbish players or seal clubbed by those with skill.

Edited by Shadowomega1, 24 February 2018 - 07:41 AM.