718 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

Krivvan, on 17 March 2018 - 03:15 AM, said:

Of course it isn't an exploit. That's like saying poptarting with PPCs is an exploit. It's the price you pay for bringing a strong high mounted Assault. The game has counters. The game would be awful if there were mechs that had no counter.

It wouldn't be an exploit, if that 20 ton mech that you couldn't hit couldn't block you from moving.. A Ny Gry for example, can't even see a leg humper to even fire at it, even with arm weapons.. You have to guess where the stupid mech is..


Give me the ability to walk over any leg humper in a large mech... and maybe crush it or at least do decent damage to it and then you might have a point.

[SteelMantis]

Sjorpha, on 17 March 2018 - 04:21 AM, said:

Laser vomit is much more dominant and powerful in the current metagame, but people really don't seem to get very angry about dying to laser vomit even though everyone dies to it much more often

I think it's because everybody can play laser vomit. It's fairly easy to play high alpha heavies moving at around the same speed as the rest of the team. Lights are a lot more difficult to play well.

I'm fairly certain that most of the people who think the PIR-1 is OP can't do very well it in.

[Sjorpha]

SteelMantis, on 17 March 2018 - 05:03 AM, said:

I think it's because everybody can play laser vomit. It's fairly easy to play high alpha heavies moving at around the same speed as the rest of the team. Lights are a lot more difficult to play well.

I'm fairly certain that most of the people who think the PIR-1 is OP can't do very well it in.

That is probably one aspect of it, but clearly there is also something about certain alternate strategies themselves and how it feels to lose to them that just ticks people off. Again LRMs cause the same kind of rage despite being much more underpowered than MGs and they are not hard to use at all. Conversely SRM lights and mediums are also hard to play well, have a high potential payoff but don't cause nearly as much salt and rage.

The common factor for these weapons that cause a lot complaints is the controlling aspect, LRMs do indirect fire and area control which people find annoying, Machine guns strip your weapons without killing you which is also annoying to many players, and flamers cap your ability to fire your weapons. I think these types of mechanics, despite being healthy and necessary parts of the metagame, will always polarize discussions and induce rage even though they are kept underpowered in absolute terms, and no matter whether they are hard to use or not.

It's the whole "nothing I could do" feeling that arises in certain situations that really frustrates those people I think, and the fact that there is literally "nothing you can do" after being killed by a much more powerful gaussvomit build doesn't seem to factor in somehow.

Edited by Sjorpha, 17 March 2018 - 05:34 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 10:33 PM, said:

I'm sorry you don't know how to read stats. How does one with all positives get carried. Explain this to me.

The problem is I do not trust Jarl's List. Absolutely no disrespect to their team for putting it together, but it does not match the stats on my profile page for MWO forums. For example it says I have roughly 1200 matches played. When my stats page shows 2k matches just in my Jenner F. So do not rely on stats unless you know EXACTLY how they were calculated, which you do not.

UnofficialOperator, on 16 March 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

Funniest thing is that he has 5000 posts and 360 games. Forum warrior much?

Funnier still, he has been on the MWO forums since 2012 and is only Tier 2? Yet he CONSTANTLY refers to the Tier as an XP bar, which he is correct for doing as that is what it is. So by his own reasoning how much experience does he really have?

Dogstar, on 17 March 2018 - 02:15 AM, said:

Everyone please stop replying to Imperius, he's not interested in a discussion or learning anything, he just wants to stomp lights with his assaults regardless of balance or common sense, and the sooner you ignore him the sooner this overlong and pointless thread will go away.

Aye and he is doing it very badly. Ever video that has been posted on this thread showing the OMG PIR OP, easily shows to anyone that knows what to look for that most assault pilots were making rookie mistakes and the light mech capitalizing on it. And in one second when a fresh assault is found takes close to 40 seconds to actually kill it. Not OP in my book.

I am all about legitimate balance discussions. Yet every piece of "evidence" that has been provided about the Pir being OP is...... wait.... has any credible evidence even been shown in 31 pages of discussion?

[PocketYoda]

JC Daxion, on 17 March 2018 - 04:24 AM, said:

It wouldn't be an exploit, if that 20 ton mech that you couldn't hit couldn't block you from moving.. A Ny Gry for example, can't even see a leg humper to even fire at it, even with arm weapons.. You have to guess where the stupid mech is..


Give me the ability to walk over any leg humper in a large mech... and maybe crush it or at least do decent damage to it and then you might have a point.

Neither can a mauler once its under you its over that in itself is very poor mechanics..

[Dethl0k]

Its your teams fault, I use Huntsman-Prime/PA 24 atms 4 hsl or 8 srm and usually the first thing I do is kill the lights on the other team, especially if I hear a machine gun. I go out of my way to kill machine gunners and AC 2 spammers

[dario03]

Darian DelFord, on 17 March 2018 - 06:12 AM, said:

The problem is I do not trust Jarl's List. Absolutely no disrespect to their team for putting it together, but it does not match the stats on my profile page for MWO forums. For example it says I have roughly 1200 matches played. When my stats page shows 2k matches just in my Jenner F. So do not rely on stats unless you know EXACTLY how they were calculated, which you do not.

It only goes back about 20 months.

[Lurch98]

Darian DelFord, on 17 March 2018 - 06:12 AM, said:

The problem is I do not trust Jarl's List. Absolutely no disrespect to their team for putting it together, but it does not match the stats on my profile page for MWO forums. For example it says I have roughly 1200 matches played. When my stats page shows 2k matches just in my Jenner F. So do not rely on stats unless you know EXACTLY how they were calculated, which you do not.

The Jarl's list is based off stats published by PGI from their API since the Leaderboard seasons started, so it is correct for your stats since that point. Feel free to "not trust them" but they are accurate. You can debate the weighting system applied for the overall score and improvement metric, but the rest of the numbers are yours.

[Nightbird]

Maybe we should petition PGI for a 30 Ballistic point assault mech so they can use the ultra-DPS Machine gun god weapons as well and see how they rock...

[CFC Conky]

Sjorpha, on 17 March 2018 - 04:21 AM, said:

...

One thing I've noted is that it's not a very good carry mech. It doesn't turn around losing matches or win on it's own, it does best if the fight is already going well for your team so it can support the bigger mechs. In some sense it's a "win-more" mech, if you're the last survivor against some fresh enemies it's usually much better to be in a Locust or Wolfhound with ermeds than in a Piranha.

...

Excellent point.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[kuma8877]

CFC Conky, on 17 March 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

Excellent point.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

I'm actually going to have to disagree with the part about it not being able to carry or seal the deal when the tables are turned. The longer the match goes on, the more armor is stripped, the more the PIR comes into it's element. I've been part of, or been on the receiving end of a fair amount of late game PIR clutches (relatively speaking).

Heck, just yesterday it happened in the NGNGtv stream. Phil's team was winning by kills and the enemy PIR just starts isolating and removing targets while they were distracted with the last few bigger mechs. What should've been solid win turned into a sour loss. It was fairly impressive.

In a similar vain to the old TT perception of the HBK being a mid/ late game executioner, is where I find the PIR can lock things down in a similar fashion.

[Sjorpha]

kuma8877, on 17 March 2018 - 07:34 AM, said:

I'm actually going to have to disagree with the part about it not being able to carry or seal the deal when the tables are turned. The longer the match goes on, the more armor is stripped, the more the PIR comes into it's element. I've been part of, or been on the receiving end of a fair amount of late game PIR clutches (relatively speaking).

The freshness of those remaining mechs makes all the difference in this case, my point was that there are other lights that doesn't actually need the enemies to be damaged to clutch a game. One example here is medium brawlers in scouting when you're the last survivor. A well played Pirate's Bane is basically unbeatable in that scenario, whereas a Piranha would struggle to survive CQC with several mediums. It's all very contextual, but I believe the Piranha is a fair bit more situational than most lights, while at the same time being much more powerful when it's good, just like it should be. That's good balance in my book.

[kuma8877]

Sjorpha, on 17 March 2018 - 07:45 AM, said:

The freshness of those remaining mechs makes all the difference in this case, my point was that there are other lights that doesn't actually need the enemies to be damaged to clutch a game. One example here is medium brawlers in scouting when you're the last survivor. A well played Pirate's Bane is basically unbeatable in that scenario, whereas a Piranha would struggle to survive CQC with several mediums. It's all very contextual, but I believe the Piranha is a fair bit more situational than most lights, while at the same time being much more powerful when it's good, just like it should be. That's good balance in my book.

This is actually why I find the Cypher to be better overall than the PIR-1 in situations like that, as it's a bit less directly specialized with better armor cutting power. I find that going MOAR MG's actually reduces my overall effectiveness (ability to influence) than a decent blend of E's and B's.

[Mystere]

TechChris, on 17 March 2018 - 06:43 AM, said:

Also..... 31 pages for this thread now, good ****** grief!

The mountains of salt are real.

[CFC Conky]

kuma8877, on 17 March 2018 - 07:34 AM, said:

I'm actually going to have to disagree with the part about it not being able to carry or seal the deal when the tables are turned. The longer the match goes on, the more armor is stripped, the more the PIR comes into it's element. I've been part of, or been on the receiving end of a fair amount of late game PIR clutches (relatively speaking).

Heck, just yesterday it happened in the NGNGtv stream. Phil's team was winning by kills and the enemy PIR just starts isolating and removing targets while they were distracted with the last few bigger mechs. What should've been solid win turned into a sour loss. It was fairly impressive.

In a similar vain to the old TT perception of the HBK being a mid/ late game executioner, is where I find the PIR can lock things down in a similar fashion.

Fair enough, a good PIR driver can make all the difference. That said, most of the time, in a 1vs many situation where the enemy mechs still have some armor, the PIR will be in a bad spot.

As for saying that lights are op, there are a lot of variables imo. QP? FP? Solo Q? Group Q? Tier? Map?

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 17 March 2018 - 09:07 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Sjorpha, on 17 March 2018 - 07:45 AM, said:

The freshness of those remaining mechs makes all the difference in this case, my point was that there are other lights that doesn't actually need the enemies to be damaged to clutch a game. One example here is medium brawlers in scouting when you're the last survivor. A well played Pirate's Bane is basically unbeatable in that scenario, whereas a Piranha would struggle to survive CQC with several mediums. It's all very contextual, but I believe the Piranha is a fair bit more situational than most lights, while at the same time being much more powerful when it's good, just like it should be. That's good balance in my book.

I would say that's less about armor and more about proximity of the targets. The Piranha can cut through armor pretty well, you just need to be able to stay on a target without its friends assisting it.

[Damnedtroll]

JC Daxion, on 17 March 2018 - 04:24 AM, said:

It wouldn't be an exploit, if that 20 ton mech that you couldn't hit couldn't block you from moving.. A Ny Gry for example, can't even see a leg humper to even fire at it, even with arm weapons.. You have to guess where the stupid mech is..


Give me the ability to walk over any leg humper in a large mech... and maybe crush it or at least do decent damage to it and then you might have a point.

Your team mate see it and can help you if he hump you... easy one shot kill. If you don't have team mates around you, you have done something bad:

1) playing rambo
2) staying behind your team for easy sniping or lurming when they are the canon meat.

But i agree with you that kicking the chihuahua would be awesome.

[CFC Conky]

Damnedtroll, on 17 March 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

...
2) staying behind your team for easy sniping or lurming when they are the canon meat.

...

I wonder why mechs firing lurms are so often stationary when they can just as easily fire on the move.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 17 March 2018 - 09:23 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

JC Daxion, on 17 March 2018 - 04:24 AM, said:

It wouldn't be an exploit, if that 20 ton mech that you couldn't hit couldn't block you from moving.. A Ny Gry for example, can't even see a leg humper to even fire at it, even with arm weapons.. You have to guess where the stupid mech is..


Give me the ability to walk over any leg humper in a large mech... and maybe crush it or at least do decent damage to it and then you might have a point.

Of course, we used to have a solution to this.

It was called "you'd knock the light over from the collision if you walked into him, then alpha his face after he stood back up".

Much like dynamic convergence, collision was something that when removed from the engine caused a host of new problems to show up, even if it had it's own issues.

CFC Conky, on 17 March 2018 - 09:22 AM, said:

I wonder why mechs firing lurms are so often stationary when they can just as easily fire on the move.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Bad habit gained from firing too much from a small patch of cover.

[Gaussfather]

Krivvan, on 17 March 2018 - 03:09 AM, said:

One of the points of the game is that a Light mech can counter an Assault. It's not always a case of heavier == inherently better. That's a good thing.

Hi, perhaps my statements for dramatic effect are being picked apart. First off, I love playing certain lights, for example my Commandos, ECM Spider, Firestarters, and Urbies... especially my Urbies, are a lot of fun. With only 4 MGs I can do a lot of damage with an Urbie or Firestarter. But when you tilt the boating so far with a 12 MG clan mech with a clan xl, then I think the game suffers... and as I've pointed out -- and others have pointed out -- its the leghumping tactic, where the light disappears from view in FRONT of you that is in my view an exploit, and not due to the fantastic piloting of a light mech to "rock paper scissors" an assault.

If you want to dance around and avoid fire in a light while returning it and hitting me in the back that's fair game... I can respect that. Even the sneak attack/back stab is acceptable gameplay and a valid tactic. Leghumping while blasting 12 MGs? No, that's just an exploit of the game not allowing the cockpit view to go down far enough (or allow transparent cockpit floor like some games did to solve such situations) and giving 1 mech/weapon combo crazy DPS with no heat and massive CRIT ability.

So for the record, and final time: Lights are OK and a valid part of the game. Leghumping with a light, especially with 12 MGs, shouldn't be a valid part of the game.

I feel like a lot of the people complaining on this thread are light pilots that enjoy piloting lights and even taking advantage of some the games quirks (bad hitreg, no knockdowns, little collision damage) that really benefit lights... if you look at it objectively I think you can see the game could use some improvements, but THAT might require a light pilot's SKILL level to increase dramatically.

Edited by Gaussfather, 17 March 2018 - 02:26 PM.