415 replies to this topic

[Shard Phoenix]

If only there was something like a "Public Test Server" where they could, uh, test 8v8 out in MW:O's current incarnation. People would actually have to participate in it, but I think it's something enough would want to try out in order to see where the truth is regarding what kind of impact it would have on the game. Seems it's just easier to not put a server up and proclaim NOT ENOUGH INTEREST as the reason.

But hey, at least we're getting Solaris and an awesome rebranding to launch MW:O to the forefront of E-spurts. (OMEGALUL)

Edited by Shard Phoenix, 09 March 2018 - 04:37 PM.

[ThreeStooges]

I doubt pgi can bribe some one off the street to be paied with free coffee and donuts in lieu of that other thing money or whatever they call it to play test the game let alone a public test server. I heard they had rumors of a public test server that melted from the play testers' rage of some thing called energy draw.

Rare footage from pgi and russ' office at exactly 8:58 am to 8:59am before further footage was lost.

[Mystere]

Do you know what, folks? Carrying things to it's logical conclusion, 1v1 is the best setup for MWO.

Hence Solaris.

You were warned to be very careful what you wish for.

Edited by Mystere, 09 March 2018 - 05:26 PM.

[SFC174]

Solahma, on 08 March 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

Going back and forth on each point is meaningless at this point. I could go into further detail why 8v8 improves the game at every point with more evidence to support it, but I'd rather save that for a proper post or video to illustrate and substantiate.

Not taking a shot at you here Solahama, you've been pretty reasonable. However, I haven't seen any evidence that 8v8 would be _objectively_ better. There's a lot of conjecture, a lot of belief, a lot of faith, but really no evidence.

About the only thing anyone can agree upon is that match wait times would go down, but even that's only an edge case when you think about it.

The rest - matchmaking quality, fun, ttk - all conjecture and opinion, in no small part because the only entity which would have any evidence in either direction is PGI, and they're not sharing.

The suggestion that 12v12 might be a significant source of the problems with QP today is extremely speculative.

Fix game mechanics, fix player rating/matchmaking, fix a variety of other things before we even worry about the number of players in a match.

[Solahma]

SFC174, on 09 March 2018 - 05:44 PM, said:

Not taking a shot at you here Solahama, you've been pretty reasonable. However, I haven't seen any evidence that 8v8 would be _objectively_ better. There's a lot of conjecture, a lot of belief, a lot of faith, but really no evidence.

I totally get it. I guess it comes down to evidence being what's the most reasonable assumption, so... not "evidence". If I said that, I apologize. We can have a very good argument one way or the other. Some points of contention here have been pretty obvious to me and others. Things like wait time being decreased, that's very hard to argue against. In my earlier post I show how matchmaking could easily be affected in a good way, with a clear illustration of how it would happen ideally. I haven't seen any good argument against that either. These are the points I mean are the closest to being factual than not, because there has been no significant argument or devil's advocate to prove otherwise. Something like TTK has been easier to divide on because you can give examples on both sides that are both correct and would probably be true. For example, a player can make a bad decision and run in front of 8-12 mechs, it's not going to matter because he will most likely die either way. You could claim that there would be no change between the two. You could also claim that less players in a match would result in, on average, less players with the ability to shoot an exposed mech. You could also make the argument that both cases are true, but lean more toward there not being a difference because of map terrain and choke points only allowing 6 mechs to fire, on average, which makes both side argument moot.

ALL of these points are impossible to prove unless tested. However, my main point was that there are a few points that are very hard to argue against. I believe there are more clear advantages than there are disadvantages or points of contention.

SFC174, on 09 March 2018 - 05:44 PM, said:

Fix game mechanics, fix player rating/matchmaking, fix a variety of other things before we even worry about the number of players in a match.

I think these could also use work, but they are also items that have been on PGI's plate for years and nothing has been done. It makes it more clear that those avenues are more closed than the potential for 8v8s to return (so we thought, and had hope when it was officially announced it was a potential).

The issue I have with considering other parts of the game is that they are influenced by the player count in matches. All of these things are connected. It's possible that switching to 8v8 can help across the board, affecting most of these hot points, thus a very efficient way to improve the game after all effects are accounted for.

Edited by Solahma, 09 March 2018 - 06:53 PM.

[sycocys]

Shard Phoenix, on 09 March 2018 - 04:36 PM, said:

If only there was something like a "Public Test Server" where they could, uh, test 8v8 out in MW:O's current incarnation.

If only they realized they don't need a separated server with an entirely new download each time to have a test area of the game that loads different sets of tables, coding scripts, and even maps.

[Mystere]

Solahma, on 09 March 2018 - 06:52 PM, said:

I think these could also use work, but they are also items that have been on PGI's plate for years and nothing has been done. It makes it more clear that those avenues are more closed than the potential for 8v8s to return (so we thought, and had hope when it was officially announced it was a potential).

The issue I have with considering other parts of the game is that they are influenced by the player count in matches. All of these things are connected. It's possible that switching to 8v8 can help across the board, affecting most of these hot points, thus a very efficient way to improve the game after all effects are accounted for.

Well, you all know what happens when the path of least resistance is taken ,,,

Edited by Mystere, 09 March 2018 - 08:38 PM.

[Imperius]

Mystere, on 09 March 2018 - 08:38 PM, said:

Well, you all know what happens when the path of least resistance is taken ,,,

PGI actually incorporates it?

[WarHippy]

Solahma, on 08 March 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

The problem is, WarHippy, responding to every point with a counter-point isn't going to prove or disprove anything. We both understand that. The only way to know is for it to happen and find out. The only way that will happen is if the pitch is strong with enough advantages to be worth considering. It doesn't matter if someone *feels* like TTK won't change "much". It doesn't matter that you think all of these experienced players can make good assumptions about what would change, and that it would benefit everyone, whether they THINK it will or not. It's like me telling my buddy that he would be happier if he quit smoking. His happiness is subjective, but there are many objectively healthy improvements from quitting. He might love the taste of tobacco and the smoking ritual. Will he actually be happier if he quit? who is to say! Maybe a vape will give him everything he wants to be happy, along with less health concerns. And then die from a car accident unrelated to any of this... Obviously this is just a loose analogy, the point is that smoking is objectively unhealthy. People might enjoy doing so, perhaps they live to 100 and suffer very little issues in their life. 12v12 might be fine for some, but it is potentially the root cause for many of quick-play's issues. 8v8 would be like the vape alternative, potentially solving many of the issues surrounding 12v12. Ultimately it doesn't matter because other things like PSR and balance (car crash) affect the game by similar margins.

Going back and forth on each point is meaningless at this point. I could go into further detail why 8v8 improves the game at every point with more evidence to support it, but I'd rather save that for a proper post or video to illustrate and substantiate.

Don't be obtuse. Smoking is obviously and objectively bad. It also isn't even remotely a comparable scenario loose analogy or not. That being said as I said in the last part of my previous post I don't care if we try 8v8 again or not I'm just trying to make sure expectations are not out of control. 8v8 is not going to be the cure all that a lot of people seem to think.

[Imperius]

WarHippy, on 10 March 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

Don't be obtuse. Smoking is obviously and objectively bad. It also isn't even remotely a comparable scenario loose analogy or not. That being said as I said in the last part of my previous post I don't care if we try 8v8 again or not I'm just trying to make sure expectations are not out of control. 8v8 is not going to be the cure all that a lot of people seem to think.

First when 8 v 8 was here we didn’t have a lot of things.

Host state rewind
Match Maker with Tiers
Clan Mechs
Goid Balance
VOIP
Tutorials
Solo Queue
Community Warfare
Tonnage Limits
Skill tree
Ghost Heat 2.0
Units and Unit Tags

So no there is no “Rose Tinted Glasses” for this guy, or many of us. There are many good things 8 v 8 will bring, that have been brought up in this thread, Reddit, and TwitterReversing all the negatives 12 v 12 brought will be a breath of fresh air. Enough anyway to bring me a back and give MWO one last serious shot.

I can certainly tell you I’m not looking forward to Solaris at all. The bolt-ons (that used the come with mech packs) being locked behind it makes it even worse!

[WarHippy]

Imperius, on 10 March 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

First when 8 v 8 was here we didn’t have a lot of things.

Host state rewind
Match Maker with Tiers
Clan Mechs
Goid Balance
VOIP
Tutorials
Solo Queue
Community Warfare
Tonnage Limits
Skill tree
Ghost Heat 2.0
Units and Unit Tags

So no there is no “Rose Tinted Glasses” for this guy, or many of us. There are many good things 8 v 8 will bring, that have been brought up in this thread, Reddit, and TwitterReversing all the negatives 12 v 12 brought will be a breath of fresh air. Enough anyway to bring me a back and give MWO one last serious shot.

I can certainly tell you I’m not looking forward to Solaris at all. The bolt-ons (that used the come with mech packs) being locked behind it makes it even worse!

And yet many of you use 8v8 from the past as an example of why it was or will be better. Its why I said earlier in this thread TTK, stomps, etc. had more to do with that list you just made than 8v8 ever did.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

They don`t know what they are doing or ever did. Discuss.

[AnarchyBurger]

Someone explain to me why people want 8v8 quickplay? The wait que isnt that long, and mostly in the history of FPS games. Smaller teams are usually the wrong way to go (aside from pug stomping joy).

[DAYLEET]

SFC174, on 09 March 2018 - 05:44 PM, said:

However, I haven't seen any evidence that 8v8 would be _objectively_ better.

Because There isnt. Its been argued to no end when the 8v8 was let loose by Russ last year or +. The devs might have not participated in it but they read it for sure. The logical end to 8v8 is that its bad. This is based on playing the game with less people in either scouting or previous pts 8v8.


Less players increase the skill gap. A good player has a lot more leverage and the less skilled have a much harder time.

It increases the mech/weaponry gap. Its a hell of a lot more important to get the good mech and meta loadout the less player there is.

Splitting becomes a lot more iffy because you need a smaller space to fit your team. The team that doesnt split will have a easier time moving together and running over the smaller group. Its not like 12v12 is 12 guys in a grid shooting the same mech, you cant fit in there. Its physically easier to move as a team of 8 than a team of 12.

With more people, its easier to do "your thing" as long as its beneficial to the team.With less people, you have to start focusing sooner.

The less player there is the less time a game last. With less option, with an easier time and with greater gaps such as skills and meta, the game gets shorter. Scouting games are very short on average. i dont remember what it was but i screenshot every game i do and they are incredibly short like 3 minutes. Which is why i did all my FP event in them when possible.

Losing a guy is a lot more punishing when there is less people to compensate. This further exacerbate all the above points. Its a nice downward spiral of suck where the few apex predator gets to farm the rest of us. The reasons other war games that have 64 players like the Battlefield or hundreds like PlanetSide dont feel as unbalanced is because with more people you are allowed to suck or do your own things and having fun. Yes, dilution of skill/meta is a thing and yes it hurts the 1%. Comp is already in game for that 1% and lo and behold its 8v8 already!

All of the above makes sense even if you dont play a game. Anyone whos been playing mwo or ANY other fps for a good period of times should know that these are the logical answer to lowering player size in a PUB game. I get that they hope that its gona get better but hope really has no place here. Play comp with all the limitation and drawback that it comes with but please dont get those into mwo pub games.

It also sends a message to everyone who might still just find the game now that it is effectively on a downward spiral like when mmos starts merging servers. No one wants to join and spend time in a dying game. Thats a sad fact and i hate it too. The people who complain now about matchmaking and everything else wont stop at 8v8. Its not like it will become their fault when they lose and get stomped in 8v8, its will be everyone else fault again.

[Imperius]

Each time I drop in group queue I can check off many bads. We automatically say to ourselves we’re down 3 people already this will be an uphill fight. Ex 3 urbies on polar... it’s gonna be a bad day for the people who want to win so the potatoes can have fun.

Look I’m sick of people on here trying to have their cake and eat it too.

There will always be meta mechs and if you want to roll non-meta then prepare to lose. It’s simple, you make that choice. It’s like saying this standard model geo prism is fun for me while you’re in a race with 2 million dollar nascar cars. You basically expect the rest of to slow our speed down to 60mph so you can have fun? Nah! Pass! I’m not even close to a pro player because there is no way I can subject myself to LRM’s are OP mmmmmmmkkkkk terabads constantly dragging this game down so they can run a stupid Urban mech. A joke mech that was to come in the game and get no buff but did anyway! It’s a novelty!

Again:
12 v 12 killed performance
12 v 12 is more unforgiving no matter how much you try to spin it. This game is constantly deathballing nascar!
12 v 12 never got balance scaled properly from 8 v 8
12 v 12 Match maker has to find more filler To get a game/ flood gates open guess what Tier 5 in a tier 1 match.
12 v 12 has done nothing but slowly kill this game for me year after year.

12 v 12 will be for CW/FP

Edited by Imperius, 10 March 2018 - 02:27 PM.

[DAYLEET]

Imperius, on 10 March 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

Each time I drop in group queue I can check off many bads. We automatically say to ourselves we’re down 3 people already this will be an uphill fight. Ex 3 urbies on polar... it’s gonna be a bad day for the people who want to win so the potatoes can have fun.

and its going to be the same with 8v8. How often do i have to tell people in scouting to only bring one of the 3 good mech and get told to fk off? all the time. 8v8 is not going to dilute the bads or roleplayers.

Imperius, on 10 March 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

There will always be meta mechs and if you want to roll non-meta then prepare to lose. It’s simple, you make that choice. It’s like saying this standard model geo prism is fun for me while you’re in a race with 2 million dollar nascar cars. You basically expect the rest of to slow our speed down to 60mph so you can have fun? Nah! Pass! I’m not even close to a pro player because there is no way I can subject myself to LRM’s are OP mmmmmmmkkkkk terabads constantly dragging this game down so they can run a stupid Urban mech. A joke mech that was to come in the game and get no buff but did anyway! It’s a novelty!

I agree and its only get to get worse when theres less people to dilute.

Imperius, on 10 March 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

1) 12 v 12 killed performance

2) 12 v 12 is more unforgiving no matter how much you try to spin it. This game is constantly deathballing nascar!

3) 12 v 12 never got balance scaled properly from 8 v 8

4) 12 v 12 Match maker has to find more filler To get a game/ flood gates open guess what Tier 5 in a tier 1 match.

5) 12 v 12 has done nothing but slowly kill this game for me year after year.

1) I agree, it does. But not so much that i want less mech on the battlefield.

2) The more people you have in a team the easier it will be to compensate. Thats just a fact.

3) The game never got balanced. Period.

4) Except those T5 really are t2 and just grinded their way there. Or did you forget there is no such thing as tiering? Theres an xp bar to keep the roleplayers in T5 and get a new player some times to learn the game. oh right i forget, pgi will magically find a way to balance players and weapons and battlemech AND matchmaking, all together, and make it right.pgi, the magical man from happy land. Lets cut our losses and not make things worse.

5) The game has been bleeding players since i joined. For what i remember of people talking back when i joined, 12v12 was welcomed and at the time there were a lot of other things going on that drove people away from the game. Theres been many exodus and none related to 12v12.

Edited by DAYLEET, 10 March 2018 - 09:39 PM.

[Eirik Eriksson]

Imperius, on 10 March 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

Each time I drop in group queue I can check off many bads.

So just how often are you really playing QP to give this opinion? Give your alt and I´ll give mine...

[Imperius]

DAYLEET, on 10 March 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

and its going to be the same with 8v8. How often do i have to tell people in scouting to only bring one of the 3 good mech and get told to fk off? all the time. 8v8 is not going to dilute the bads or roleplayers.


I agree and its only get to get worse when theres less people to dilute.


1) I agree, it does. But not so much that i want less mech on the battlefield.

2) The more people you have in a team the easier it will be to compensate. Thats just a fact.

3) The game never got balanced. Period.

4) Except those T5 really are t2 and just grinded their way there. Or did you forget there is no such thing as tiering? Theres an xp bar to keep the roleplayers in T5 and get a new player some times to learn the game. oh right i forget, pgi will magically find a way to balance players and weapons and battlemech AND matchmaking, all together, and make it right.pgi, the magical man from happy land. Lets cut our looses and not make things worse.

5) The game has been bleeding players since i joined. For what i remember of people talking back when i joined, 12v12 was welcomed and at the time there were a lot of other things going on that drove people away from the game. Theres been many exodus and none related to 12v12.

More people does not equal more compensation. It means more things you have to kill as they whittle you away while your banshee goes and captures points
Less people - more balance via match maker (obviously that is assumption and so is yours)

Yes, I’m aware tiers are an xp bar.

Slow Speed, on 10 March 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

So just how often are you really playing QP to give this opinion? Give your alt and I´ll give mine...

I don’t play anymore because I got tired of the carry harder if you want to win responsibility.

[Eirik Eriksson]

Imperius, on 10 March 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

I don’t play anymore because I got tired of the carry harder if you want to win responsibility.

Then solaris should be a very good mode for you.

[Solahma]

WarHippy, on 10 March 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

Don't be obtuse. Smoking is obviously and objectively bad.

Congratulations, you fell into the trap. Smoking is not objectively bad. It has objectively negative health consequences, but the act of smoking is not objectively bad. That would mean it's 100% a BAD thing for someone to smoke. What if that person values the act of smoking or the taste of tobacco? It's objectively hazardous to bodily health, but not objectively bad to do. Do you understand the difference? If you did, you would understand the analogy.

Edited by Solahma, 10 March 2018 - 03:04 PM.