415 replies to this topic

[Imperius]

Mystere, on 10 March 2018 - 07:15 PM, said:

Some people seem to have this belief that regression and downgrades will somehow make MWO great (again).

Some people are blind to the damage and ignored the bleeding caused by going to 12 v 12.

[DAYLEET]

Mcgral18, on 10 March 2018 - 03:58 PM, said:

Queue times can be multiple minutes, in off peak hours
It'd be nice there

Last time pgi did something for the waiting time they removed game mode choice and implemented the voting system. Which is in my opinion is the worst decision they have ever made right after going back on "no third". With the distinction of 3pv having NO negative effect on game play, NONE, ZERO. just looking bad going back on their words.

Mcgral18, on 10 March 2018 - 03:58 PM, said:

Fewer PUGtatoes on your team

lol no. You ever played scouting solo? There isnt fewer potato with 4 players. Theres between 25%(1) and 50%(2) of the players in clown mechs. And the less players there is the worst those player are for your team. The super pro might carry even harder but the others also get bent harder. Because less players amplify every bad mech, every bad move. Every mistake hurts everyone more. Take 12v12, remove 4 random due on your team and see how much better you should have done. yes, four RANDOM. what, you think only the people who finish with less than 100 score will be removed? that nobody will ever fkup or get screwed? See, you arent going to get a better time, just a harder time compensating for everyone else.

Mcgral18, on 10 March 2018 - 03:58 PM, said:

Easier to carry the rest of the Terribads on your team
Not to say stomps won't still happen, they will, but you have a greater Carry Potential

The one percent will shine in a 8v8, i truly agree with you. The rest might as well go play another game. And then you wont have anyone to make you shine and what will be the change needed? 4v4?

Khobai, on 10 March 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

but you get 50% more of those big alphas in 12v12 as opposed to 8v8. Thats why comp play is 8v8 and not 12v12. Because 8v8 helps weaken gunlines and puts it back into parity with brawling. It allows more diversity in builds.

Comp is 8v8 because making teams with bench sitters would be impossible otherwise for half the team that want to seriously try and compete. Just look how it went the first year with most team forfeiting because not everyone could follow the scheduled. Imagine if they had to have 12 pilots. Last year most teams signed up because of the free **** and most would have never existed if they had needed 12 pilots.

Edited by DAYLEET, 10 March 2018 - 10:21 PM.

[Solahma]

kuma8877, on 10 March 2018 - 07:00 PM, said:

The one thing I find odd about this whole conversation is, the 100% conviction that some have to 8v8 being the saving grace for MWO, and that no other method could possibly do the same.

Really? because most of the arguments I've read have been how it's not the only saving grace, but that it is one option that could potentially help the most areas across the board.

Also, don't confuse pointing out the benefits as being claimed the "saving grace" of MWO. No one is making that claim. We are simply arguing that it will improve the game, not be some miracle cure for all its issues.

It is a simple change that could result in a more enjoyable game because it impacts balance, ttk, stagnation, etc. Whether it impacts them for the better or worse are impossible to prove. There are plenty of arguments either way, but we'd only know if it was tried in today's state of the game.

[Solahma]

Mystere, on 10 March 2018 - 05:38 PM, said:

The WHO 100% disagrees with you. The tobacco industry, for obvious reasons, does not. Lol!

[Mystere]

DAYLEET, on 10 March 2018 - 10:09 PM, said:

The one percent will shine in a 8v8, i truly agree with you. The rest might as well go play another game. And then you wont have anyone to make you shine and what will be the change needed? 4v4?

No. It's already coming and is called "Solaris".

[Solahma]

Mystere, on 10 March 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

I wonder why many people here do not seem to realize that this is exactly the message that will be broadcasted to the outside world once we downgrade to 8v8. Because make no mistake about it, it will indeed be seen as a downgrade.

So let me get this straight. An upgrade to all the potential areas of the game this switch could benefit would still be seen as a downgrade simply because there are 8 less players in a match? So, if matches are better, the game is more fun to play, runs better, players better, balances easier, etc. Even if only some of those result in something measurably beneficial. If the community responds with "wow, the game feels noticeably better as 8v8 compared to 12v12". You'd still call it a downgrade?

That's not even an argument, it's in no way a downgrade. Just like it's not an upgrade if they magically added 8 players to the match.

You understand that the idea of so many players in a match is LESS attractive to some people right? There is a reason people play 5v5 ranked in CSGO. There is a reason we have 8v8 competitive scenes in MWO. Some people prefer scouting in 4v4. And some will prefer playing alone in Solaris.

More =/= Better.

Less =/= Worse.

[SFC174]

Solahma, on 10 March 2018 - 11:52 PM, said:

More =/= Better.

Less =/= Worse.

I believe the point he is trying to make is that a game which reduces match sizes would be perceived by potential (not current) players as one which is "dying". Perception _is_ reality when it comes to marketing/advertising, so if PGI were looking to keep adding new players, it could be a problem.

But......probably not the biggest issue with 8v8 since MWO is not exactly attracting a lot of new players at this point in its lifecycle. Without regular major updates, any game this old is on a steady decline.

[adamts01]

Imperius, on 10 March 2018 - 08:26 PM, said:

Some people are blind to the damage and ignored the bleeding caused by going to 12 v 12.

Add me to the list of those blind to 12v12 damage. I'd list the largest bad decisions contributing to player loss in no particular order as...

Monster alphas, starting with Clans.

Community Warfare absolutely face-palming.

The light nerf (resale)

Engine de-sync

Pay-to-win mechs on release (Firestarter, Cheetah, Clan Jenners, Kodiak.....)

Game balance with a hammer, and the ridiculous over-quirks

A match maker that doesn't account for skill..... Seriously?

Attrocious community interaction

12v12 doesn't come close to making that list. Aside from playing for a few daye once or twice a year to see how things are, I quit after the light nerf. I replaced this game with Arma 3, Squad, and Planetside 2. After the incredible teamwork and massive scale of those games there's just no way I could settle for a small lobby shooter again. The amount of teamwork and tactics that so many players on the battlefield open up is incredible. 8v8 would be a step backwards. On the contrary, if they announced 24vs24 I'd actually consider getting back in to the game. Better yet if it were 48vs48, which would be getting close to a real CW. Better yet would be a copy/paste of Planetside, with Lights, tanks and aircraft being free and Assaults expensive and powerful. Lights scouting out LRM formations for medium mechs to take out while Assaults hold down the front line while fast heavies flank. Lights spotting for friends LRMs and long toms. If you haven't noticed, MWO players aren't and will never be competitive. Arena shooters are the wrong way to go, and the smaller arena the worse.

[GoatHILL]

Had a match tonight we were down 2 to 6. We came back and won it 12 to 9 that would never happen in 8 v 8.

[JohnnyWayne]

GoatHILL, on 11 March 2018 - 02:03 AM, said:

Had a match tonight we were down 2 to 6. We came back and won it 12 to 9 that would never happen in 8 v 8.

That already has happened multiple times, well the comeback. You can't make 12 to 9 kills in 8v8 obviously, duh.

[sycocys]

SFC174, on 10 March 2018 - 11:59 PM, said:

Perception _is_ reality when it comes to marketing/advertising, so if PGI were looking to keep adding new players, it could be a problem.

Well Pgi does none of those things so it really isn't a problem.

[kuma8877]

Solahma, on 10 March 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

Really? because most of the arguments I've read have been how it's not the only saving grace, but that it is one option that could potentially help the most areas across the board.

Also, don't confuse pointing out the benefits as being claimed the "saving grace" of MWO. No one is making that claim. We are simply arguing that it will improve the game, not be some miracle cure for all its issues.

It is a simple change that could result in a more enjoyable game because it impacts balance, ttk, stagnation, etc. Whether it impacts them for the better or worse are impossible to prove. There are plenty of arguments either way, but we'd only know if it was tried in today's state of the game.

Really, I can go through this thread and twitter both (redditt too), and find you quotes from certain players speaking in absolutes about 8v8. That's the thing I think is weird. I didn't say every proponent of 8v8 speaks in these terms, but some CERTAINLY do. Which, as I said is odd to me, as there are many solutions without reverting to 8v8 that could be employed to fix some of MWO's current issues. I personally don't think 8v8 is the silver bullet some claim it to be. Sure, maybe a tool for growth if used properly, but not an end all solution to the issues at hand.

8v8 alone is NOT a recipe for fun by itself, and that's our biggest issue... people not finding MWO fun anymore in certain areas. If they only revert to 8v8 and change nothing else...where are we then? I say add modes that take advantage of 8v8 rather than reverting the whole game to be based on it. Spend the time and money on some engineers to dig in and clean up our 12v12 gameplay experience(network performance and graphical updates) which helps all other possible modes of team play.

Warframe is a good example of growth and success, even when the overall industry thought the chips were against them thru the years.

[Imperius]

QP goes to 8v8

FP stays 12v12 & 4v4

Solaris 1v1 & 2v2

I see no issues

[kuma8877]

Imperius, on 11 March 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

QP goes to 8v8

FP stays 12v12 & 4v4

Solaris 1v1 & 2v2

I see no issues

Except for the players who prefer 12v12 QP and don't want to participate in CW to get their bigger battle fix. That might be a bigger problem than you anticipate. This thread (and others like it) show that going to 8v8 is going to bring out backlash from players who prefer 12v12, and despite whether or not you see it that way, it's going to lead to some problems. We just don't know how big or how wide reaching those effects might be.

If there is a switch to 8v8, there better be some graphics upgrades and lock-tight networking fixes to herald the switch, otherwise the greater gaming community WILL look at MWO and think the title is regressing and dying (goodbye potential new players). It's human nature to do so, so do you have a plan to overcome those perceptions?

[Imperius]

kuma8877, on 11 March 2018 - 09:56 AM, said:

Except for the players who prefer 12v12 QP and don't want to participate in CW to get their bigger battle fix. That might be a bigger problem than you anticipate. This thread (and others like it) show that going to 8v8 is going to bring out backlash from players who prefer 12v12, and despite whether or not you see it that way, it's going to lead to some problems. We just don't know how big or how wide reaching those effects might be.

If there is a switch to 8v8, there better be some graphics upgrades and lock-tight networking fixes to herald the switch, otherwise the greater gaming community WILL look at MWO and think the title is regressing and dying (goodbye potential new players). It's human nature to do so, so do you have a plan to overcome those perceptions?

That’s ok, the ones who left because 12v12 will come back to fill that assumption hole.

[Sjorpha]

Imperius, on 11 March 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

QP goes to 8v8

FP stays 12v12 & 4v4

Solaris 1v1 & 2v2

I see no issues

Seems good to me.

[GoatHILL]

I don't remember any mass exodus because of 12v12. Now limited group size, that drove a lot people away. I remember the cake and then the Twitter bans.

Even on the lowly Marik TS server we still regularly have groups of 8+ running a mix of IS and Clan. CW is dead and PGI don't seem interested in saving it.

Edited by GoatHILL, 11 March 2018 - 12:07 PM.

[kuma8877]

Imperius, on 11 March 2018 - 11:48 AM, said:

That’s ok, the ones who left because 12v12 will come back to fill that assumption hole.

That's one heck of an assumption to make. Generally, I find that assuming anything on other people's behalf leaves the door open for disaster.

[Imperius]

kuma8877, on 11 March 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

That's one heck of an assumption to make. Generally, I find that assuming anything on other people's behalf leaves the door open for disaster.

You’re assuming people will leave so I countered you crap assumption with the exact opposite. Weird how that just worked and you called your own comment a disaster. Hence why I called it “assumption hole.”

[Imperius]

GoatHILL, on 11 March 2018 - 12:06 PM, said:

I don't remember any mass exodus because of 12v12. Now limited group size, that drove a lot people away. I remember the cake and then the Twitter bans.

Even on the lowly Marik TS server we still regularly have groups of 8+ running a mix of IS and Clan. CW is dead and PGI don't seem interested in saving it.

Edit: Removed misunderstanding settled in DM

Edited by Imperius, 11 March 2018 - 06:31 PM.