106 replies to this topic

[Tier5 Kerensky]

justcallme A S H, on 19 March 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:

Then you are indeed part of the problem as to why MWO now had 28,000 active players a month down from 38,000 some 14months ago. The major drop came around, no surprise, skill maze.

Reality is different.

https://leaderboard.isengrim.org/stats

[Yosharian]

> Now that all of my, "free" points, from the changeover to the new skill tree are gone, I have been forced to feel like a, "new," player. What horsesh*t it is to have to skill a mech when it takes so long.

Wait what

[Bud Crue]

Teer Kerensky, on 19 March 2018 - 02:59 PM, said:

Reality is different.

https://leaderboard.isengrim.org/stats

?
Yeah, it is a bit different, but not much in terms of overall trends.

I think season 12 or thereabouts match with last May, and the skills tree, with a population of 31,552?

We had an artificial peak in December of 35,569 (season 18) with the free give away.

Now we are back down to even below the skills tree at 29,906.

So yeah, Ash may have the dates wrong (or maybe I do) but the overall trend and the gist of his post isn't wrong: over all we have continued to lose population since skills tree dropped, and even the bubble we got in December didn't offset those losses.

Edit:
And as to the grind issue, post skills tree vs pre-skills tree: All I know is that I never felt like leveling even three mechs was the chore it is now to level one. We've had this discussion before and I have posted screen shots of matches with 10-20K XP taking advantage of x2 bonus and premium pre-skills tree, but the best I have been able to show post-skills tree is about 7-8K. Something changed points wise to make the grind worse. I used to -and this is speaking as a crap player of this game- be able to level three mechs in a good weekend of casual play. Now it takes me a good month at ~1-3 nodes per match doing the "play until I get a win to take advantage of the x2 bonus and then play a mech I like to preserve my sanity" style of leveling that I have always done. Anyway, another thing folks are ignoring is that under the old system you got EVERYTHING fully maxed, and then what you wanted with modules (that could be swapped between mechs). In the skills tree era, getting everything is impossible, and nowadays the effect of modules that were so important back in the day, are out right ignored in terms of similar nodes in the new system because the meta has shifted; so an apples to apples comparison is impossible.

Edited by Bud Crue, 19 March 2018 - 04:49 PM.

[DAYLEET]

IVeoRR, on 18 March 2018 - 12:04 PM, said:

Now that all of my, "free" points, from the changeover to the new skill tree are gone, I have been forced to feel like a, "new," player. What horsesh*t it is to have to skill a mech when it takes so long.

I have about 20mech of free nodes left. When those points are gone, im just gona go through the remaining mechs i own that still have their historic points left. Im never going to grind another mech, ever.This isnt a mmo, you dont build 3 or 4 character that you can then go back to when you need em. Im just surprised they arent selling skill points pack because who in their right mind enjoy buying ****** mech.

Edited by DAYLEET, 19 March 2018 - 06:10 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Teer Kerensky, on 19 March 2018 - 02:59 PM, said:

Reality is different.

https://leaderboard.isengrim.org/stats

What's different exactly?

The single Dec spike is easily explainable - free mech over Xmas?

Before and after that, it's basically bang on what i said, why? BecauseI track these things the same as Scurro is for the leaderboard. We both use the same dumps that come out each month. I'm not making anything up here.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

justcallme A S H, on 19 March 2018 - 05:26 PM, said:

What's different exactly?

The single Dec spike is easily explainable - free mech over Xmas?

Before and after that, it's basically bang on what i said, why? BecauseI track these things the same as Scurro is for the leaderboard. We both use the same dumps that come out each month. I'm not making anything up here.

Two things

A: The playerbase has been in steady decline since season 1 when we've had something to count it from. That is prior to skill tree so skill tree has not caused it.

B: Skill tree had no effect on the steady decline. There was a small surge of more players returning when it became live, and then two months later a similiar sized drop so that net effect to playerbase was nothing.

[arcana75]

As a relatively new player, my only reality is the skill tree. I like it. Can it be better designed? Sure, I wish I could get some nodes activated without going through nodes I don't need or are not related to the build I'm trying to do.

Is it a grind? Sure, any F2P has a grind. It is bad? By comparison, hell no.

[Bud Crue]

Teer Kerensky, on 19 March 2018 - 06:05 PM, said:

Two things

A: The playerbase has been in steady decline since season 1 when we've had something to count it from. That is prior to skill tree so skill tree has not caused it.

B: Skill tree had no effect on the steady decline. There was a small surge of more players returning when it became live, and then two months later a similiar sized drop so that net effect to playerbase was nothing.

This I largely agree with, but while certainly the numbers show a fairly consistent trend of losses since season 1, that loss has continued since skills tree. There has been no overall uptick. We have less players now than we did when it was advertised back in December 2016, when it was sold and tested through the spring of 2017, and certainly after it was put into the game in May (that valley is not a coincidence). Nu-tech brought some folks back it would seem, and free mechs gave a big short term bump, but those gains did not stem the overall trend of losses.

But as far as skills tree goes,its really worse than what that chart shows: merely the trend of losing population over time with or without it.

Skills tree was supposed to be salvation, to change the game in ways that would make it irresistible to once lost bitter vets and steam casuals alike. Think back. Go back and listen to the December 2016 presentation. Go back and read the exchanges on twitter, reddit and even here throughout spring of 2017. Skills tree was advertised as this great mechanism that would do all sorts of wonderous things from making quirks -ALL quirks- a thing of the past, to bringing forth a golden age where mech diversity and player choice was made paramount (the top two goals of the skills tree as stated in the PTS announcement), because it would provide until now unrealized balance perfection, such that all mechs would have a variety of competitive builds not dictated by silliness of quirks or tech imbalance. Hallelujah! Implicit in all that talk, all that puffery, all those “promises” was that these epic changes would be a boon for the game; that they would draw folks back in. That more folks would play the game. Look at the chart. How’s that worked out?

Skills Tree failed to not only draw folks in, but the chart clearly show that it didn’t even provide a pause in the rate that the game is bleeding players. Yet, as these population losses continue, folks are asserting that skills tree has been good for the game? I for one fail to see its benefit, and according to the population numbers, most folks don’t seem to see it either.

[Wil McCullough]

Phoolan Devi, on 19 March 2018 - 07:32 AM, said:

I do not and here is why: benefits of former modules are reached much faster now! You can get more benefits of former modules now!

No you don't. You leveled faster with the old system, but got restricted by the rule of thirds.

Also, currently, the effects per node is miniscule. That is a problem, actually. It means per node, you don't get meaningful choice. You have to dump, what? 15-20 points into a tree to effectively see a difference in performance in an actual game? This makes it a tedious process and honestly, a bit pointless.

Another game with a tedious skill tree is Path of Exile. But it makes it worth the player's effort and time because the tree unlocks really cool abilities every single route you take. And no, reduced laser burn duration isn't "cool".

According to lore, there were so many autocannon manufacturers that the weapons were roughly grouped into 2s, 5s, 10s and 20s. They were grouped based on the amount of firepower they could put downrange. And most of it wasn't in a single shot. There's only one AC20 manufacturer that had a weapon that actually fired a single slug, actually.

So imagine if the ballistics tree allowed you to unlock different AC manufacturers depending on which route you go so you get different types of "shot", sound and weapon behavior. THAT would be cool and would make the skill tree at least FUN to use.

Quote

Depends on the mech! Jump tree for certain mechs is just a mobility boost brought from heaven!

No it isn't lol. It's a trap. You're always going to do better if you just load up on survivability nodes. Yeah, you can jump jet all over the place with a skilled jump jet tree, but... what's the point? Are you even sure you want to do that? There's so many maps where you can get stuck or worse, kill yourself by breaking both legs due to terrain bugs. Grim plexus, I'm looking at you.

Quote

Any new player who quits because of skill tree and grind in the new system would've quit under the old system way earlier!

They're quitting either way. Both with the new skill tree and the old rule of thirds. That's why MWO player numbers are so low. Just because the old system didn't work doesn't mean that we should now get behind a new system that also doesn't work. Lol.

[Escef]

justcallme A S H, on 19 March 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:

Good thing you avoided the other part of my post. No where to argue that I guess.

End of the day if you cannot see that Skill Maze...

If the skill tree is so confusing to you that you call it a "maze", than there's no point discussing things with you.

[Phoolan Devi]

Wil McCullough, on 20 March 2018 - 04:56 AM, said:

No you don't. You leveled faster with the old system, but got restricted by the rule of thirds.

I was talking about modules! The gxp costs for those were horrendous and an aweful grind for new players! This grind has been reduced to almost nothing now!

Quote

So imagine if the ballistics tree allowed you to unlock different AC manufacturers depending on which route you go so you get different types of "shot", sound and weapon behavior. THAT would be cool and would make the skill tree at least FUN to use.

That would be cool, yes!

Quote

No it isn't lol. It's a trap. You're always going to do better if you just load up on survivability nodes. Yeah, you can jump jet all over the place with a skilled jump jet tree, but... what's the point? Are you even sure you want to do that? There's so many maps where you can get stuck or worse, kill yourself by breaking both legs due to terrain bugs. Grim plexus, I'm looking at you.

See, choices! I feel it benefits some mechs, you don't.

Quote

They're quitting either way. Both with the new skill tree and the old rule of thirds. That's why MWO player numbers are so low. Just because the old system didn't work doesn't mean that we should now get behind a new system that also doesn't work. Lol.

Sure there are things that could be made better.....or should've been implemented as announces. For example it was said, that each mech would have a different amount of skill points available and thus quirks removed. Wasn't implemented and probably never will be.

But, to say the whole skill tree sucks because of some minor flaws and declaring the old one (which was even more confusing!) better is just humbug!

I personally would be all for no skill tree at all!

Edited by Phoolan Devi, 20 March 2018 - 07:03 AM.

[KodiakGW]

Bud Crue, on 20 March 2018 - 03:58 AM, said:

Skills tree was supposed to be salvation, to change the game in ways that would make it irresistible to once lost bitter vets and steam casuals alike.

Yep, It did just the opposite from personal experience, which I have already shared a number of times. Agree with a number of points you and Ash made.

But, why are you even bothering to argue with these people anymore? They don’t want to hear it, or are even willing to make even the slightest concession. I mean, how long did it take until we finally got no more XP cost for respec? Almost a full year. It’s to where they throw up numbers that actually prove your point, in an attempt to argue against your point, and then don’t comprehend that it does prove your point. As for those numbers, some of them have admitted that they have at least 3 alt accounts, which should skew the active player numbers upward. And yet, the active player numbers are still trending downward. I wonder how much more downward it would be if we could remove all the alt account activity.

I pretty much gave up when someone actually called the Urbie OP to defend why it needed torso yaw gating. I’d love to see that logic posted up on Reddit Outreach. Then they will get proper replies, using the appropriate language to rebut logic like that.

Notice that a number of them are always falling back to the same arguements of “no more rule of three” and “searching for modules.” You know, the types of things which prompted them to be called “cheapskates” by someone. Forgot who that was....

So, I guess the “cheapskates” are happy.

[Bud Crue]

KodiakGW, on 20 March 2018 - 08:54 AM, said:

Yep, It did just the opposite from personal experience, which I have already shared a number of times. Agree with a number of points you and Ash made.

But, why are you even bothering to argue with these people anymore?

Meh. I can’t speak for others here, but I argue because it is fun, and because despite my cynicism I still care about the game and hope that by pointing out what I see as the folly of certain actions by PGI, they will fix them or at least try something else in their stead.

Frankly, I really don’t care about the skills tree. It’s just clicks to min max my builds; whatever. I do care however that the skills tree and its associate grind (among other things, such as perceived imbalance, etc.) is oft noted by new players giving MWO a try, as being a detriment -if not THEE detriment- that stands in their way of sticking around as long term players. That’s a problem that exacerbates the population losses that we are all well aware of from the above discussions.

Edited by Bud Crue, 20 March 2018 - 10:30 AM.

[Tiewolf]

Escef, on 19 March 2018 - 06:40 AM, said:

People like to complain. I don't care what the "give me free stuff faster" crowd has to say. I don't go on reddit because I don't like swimming in toilets. And has been pointed out numerous times, the grind in MWO is far less than other, more popular games.

Yes and the people in Syria have it far worse then we so everything is fine?
Comparison arguments are no arguments just opinions.
You think the grind and the asymatrical consequences of the skill tree launch for the playerbase are ok? Thats fine by me but i disagree.

Escef, on 19 March 2018 - 06:45 AM, said:

Ooooh, the "skill maze" comment! Yup, nothing like admitting the skill tree is too complicated for you!

Yes it was in the beginning. I needed some time to figure out the paths and creating distinct patterns for my mechs. Sadly after a while i realized that it was only a waste of a lot resources and that there are no real choices or customizations. Why all those nodes when you end up with the same patterns for all mechs?

But the fact, that you have to use comparison arguments, seem to ignore any facts and question the cedibility of others instead of enlighten them with arguments to validate your opinion tells the story.

[justcallme A S H]

Escef, on 20 March 2018 - 06:52 AM, said:

If the skill tree is so confusing to you that you call it a "maze", than there's no point discussing things with you.

It's not confusing to me. I was not calling it a maze because I am confused...

I am calling it a maze because of the excessive amounts of nodes that when unlocked individually, give you absolutely no sense of actually acomplishing anything.

91 nodes to do what you should be able to do with 45. Cutting it down in half would actually give you some way to tangibly notice an improvement.

And for new players it is incredibly confusing - they have said so - many times. You cannot argue their view as wrong, they are 100% right because it's what they are experiencing. I get a few PMs from people and I explain things in detail and then they are like "oh wow, right, I didn't realise that". Suddenly with a proper skill maze they are more effective in battle... What a surprise? Maybe if you did the same, you'd be better too?

I mean I realise I'm discussing things with the bottom of the barrel and this is largely going to be a waste of time. A whiteknight is never wrong, apparently.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 20 March 2018 - 01:05 PM.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

IVeoRR, on 18 March 2018 - 12:04 PM, said:

That's right, 2 paltry nodes a match...

Now that all of my, "free" points, from the changeover to the new skill tree are gone, I have been forced to feel like a, "new," player. What horsesh*t it is to have to skill a mech when it takes so long.

I have been playing a better part of the day trying to get my Zeus competent on heat, mobility, etc. and I am ending my play with 33 nodes. Ridiculous.

Please address this P.G.I. Speed the process up by the amount of points attainable per match or whatever. Playing an unskilled mech sucks and getting enough xp to unlock 1-6 nodes, if you even win and/or do well, is stupidly slow.

Love the game, but the grind is outrageous.

2 per match is actually amazing. I am a good player, and i average about 1.2 nodes per match. I just for teh fun tryed leveling a supernova. 996dmg 2 kills 2 solo kills 4 kmdd and a few assists abrought me 1588 XP.... Just shy of 2 nodes. If 2 nodes on average is actually waht you got you must be super amzing with an average damage output of over 1k. And this is while i have premium time on.

While i currently sit at aroudn 600 on the jarls lsit you are at 4400. How do you do that? How do you get over 1k consistently with these teams at the moment?

[Phoolan Devi]

justcallme A S H, on 20 March 2018 - 01:03 PM, said:

It's not confusing to me. I was not calling it a maze because I am confused...

I am calling it a maze because of the excessive amounts of nodes that when unlocked individually, give you absolutely no sense of actually acomplishing anything.

91 nodes to do what you should be able to do with 45. Cutting it down in half would actually give you some way to tangibly notice an improvement.

And for new players it is incredibly confusing - they have said so - many times. You cannot argue their view as wrong, they are 100% right because it's what they are experiencing. I get a few PMs from people and I explain things in detail and then they are like "oh wow, right, I didn't realise that". Suddenly with a proper skill maze they are more effective in battle... What a surprise? Maybe if you did the same, you'd be better too?

I mean I realise I'm discussing things with the bottom of the barrel and this is largely going to be a waste of time. A whiteknight is never wrong, apparently.

But, guys, then please argue in the right direction and do not falsly claim that the old skill system was better and less grind for new player!

Is the current skill tree improvable....surely!

But please stop selling the old system as better than the new for newbies.......it wasn't!

[Exilyth]

Wil McCullough, on 20 March 2018 - 04:56 AM, said:

Another game with a tedious skill tree is Path of Exile. But it makes it worth the player's effort and time because the tree unlocks really cool abilities every single route you take.

Yeah, PoE has one of the best skill trees I've seen in an F2P MMO so far. It is pve focussed and a lot more grindy than MWO though.

For everyone who never played PoE:
It's a circular skill maze with different classes starting at different points on the maze.
There are pathways (skill nodes placed in a row), which improve attributes and islands (a bunch of nodes branching off from a central node) which improve skills or abilities. You get a skill point each level which you use to unlock the nodes. While you're forced to take nodes on pathways to get to the island you want, they're usefull. You're not feeling like you're forced to pick up certain nodes just to get other nodes, it feels like you have the choice to go one way or another.

Any build can get around the whole tree and grab nodes from different places, the starting positions just make it a lot easier for certain classes to get certain nodes.

And then there are unique nodes which completely change the way a build plays by adding a huge positive trait and a huge negative trait or changing how certain game rules interact.

And then there's ascendancy which gives you another class and another small skiltree to place special points on.

All in all, >120 skill points to be distributed among >1000 nodes:
https://www.pathofex...sive-skill-tree

Don't worry if you don't grok that instantly - it took me a lot of reading on the PoE forums to understand the skill tree and how certain builds work and I'm usually quick with such things. There's just such a large amount of nodes with different effects it takes a while to know all effects and where what kind of effect is located.

Edited by Exilyth, 20 March 2018 - 03:43 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Phoolan Devi, on 20 March 2018 - 03:15 PM, said:

But, guys, then please argue in the right direction and do not falsly claim that the old skill system was better and less grind for new player!

Is the current skill tree improvable....surely!

But please stop selling the old system as better than the new for newbies.......it wasn't!

Except it was less of a grind as soon as you purchased more than 1 variant of a mech.

It is not a false claim, it's reality.

1 mech skill maze = faster than 3 mech old system
2 mech skill maze = longer than 3 mech old system
3 mech skill maze = insanely longer than 3 mech old system

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Cara Carcass, on 20 March 2018 - 01:17 PM, said:

2 per match is actually amazing. I am a good player, and i average about 1.2 nodes per match. I just for teh fun tryed leveling a supernova. 996dmg 2 kills 2 solo kills 4 kmdd and a few assists abrought me 1588 XP.... Just shy of 2 nodes. If 2 nodes on average is actually waht you got you must be super amzing with an average damage output of over 1k. And this is while i have premium time on.

While i currently sit at aroudn 600 on the jarls lsit you are at 4400. How do you do that? How do you get over 1k consistently with these teams at the moment?

My average XP is 1000+, which would be to 1.2 nodes. Yours has to be much higher. Winning is a lot for XP, your Supernova example probably was a loss.

You can see more detailed here
https://mwomercs.com...stats?type=mech

Oh without Madstats you might only see totals, so you'd have to divide by number of games, and can't easily see max. averages. If intrested and using combatible browser see
https://mwomercs.com...-stats-sorting/


For example my recent brought Arctic Wolf, 15 games average 1043 exp. This is with premium time I think, because I got some from lootbags. Normally I don't have premium time
2 med pulse 4xSRM4 3JJs ECM
https://mwo.smurfy-n...49479eeff1e5c48