281 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 03 April 2018 - 11:48 AM, said:

That component HP advantage does nothing against MG boats. Weapon/equipment still gets stripped near instantly. Which is why crit damage/chance needs to be lowered for MGs.

If crit damage and chance will be lowered, then MG damage should be significantly increased -- along with the damage of all the other small weapons. Otherwise, MGs and lights will again be relegated to gathering dust.

Brain Cancer, on 03 April 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

Either pack weapons that easily deal with them but are less effective vs. everyone else, or max out on weapons that fry other big guys but are less likely to drop the lights before they worry your damaged locations off. Or actually value your light pilots that can dogfight their opposite numbers and cover your backside.

Darian DelFord, on 03 April 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

The point is as I have laid out multiple times in this thread and other threads.... is simple...... You make decisions to skill out your mech your way..... the problem is..... alot of those decisions make you vulnerable to faster more agile mechs.

It is not the mechs fault it is the fault of the pilot to spec for more PEW PEW and less Oh crapness. That is the issue here.

Sadly, all of those are just too difficult for the "Go Big Or Go Home!" crowd to even comprehend.

Edited by Mystere, 04 April 2018 - 06:28 AM.

[El Bandito]

Mystere, on 04 April 2018 - 06:27 AM, said:

If crit damage and chance will be lowered, then MG damage should be significantly increased -- along with the damage of all the other small weapons. Otherwise, MGs and lights will again be relegated to gathering dust.

Which is why I said in my first post that MG damage should be increased as compensation. Also, IS MG needs to become far better than Clan MG due to weight difference. Otherwise, IS MG Lights will never shine as well as the Piranha/Lynx.

[Q]

Do 3-4 machine guns feel OP? Before the Piranha came out the Lynx didn't seem to be getting that much attention... I realize there was a time before I returned that the critlynx was the bane of components, but that seemed to go away. 12 machine guns, however, just give too many opportunities to crit over one firing cycle.

Is it sacrilegious to suggest that instead of nerfing/buffing an individual weapon we instead nerf/buff the benefit of boating it? Probably not achievable in the code I'm sure, but a gradual loss of gained crit chance per MG added over say the 4th seems more fitting.

[Racerxintegra2k]

justcallme A S H, on 03 April 2018 - 05:59 PM, said:

Remember stripped arms, blown off, reduce damage when shielding. Plus hitboxes.

No different to a Commando... Ever had a Commando hump your leg in an Assault? Trust me it's as infuriating as a PIR and there is little you can do about it.

But then there are 11 mechs in your team, they are meant to help - use comms or simply don't get into a position that lets you be caught out in the first place, this is the main issue - players derp out and blame everything but themselves when they are the problem.

Fair points. I just want to ask one thing.In the assault leg humping situation, which mech will kill that assault faster commando or piranha ? Is it even close ?

[WhineyThePoo]

I think balancing mgs is a good start.

[justcallme A S H]

Depends on the pilot.

You can shield your back easily from the PIR-1. The SRM commando can just continually bash away at your leg and if you have 2T ammo there, you're in trouble.

They do things differently really.

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

justcallme A S H, on 04 April 2018 - 07:19 AM, said:

Depends on the pilot.

You can shield your back easily from the PIR-1. The SRM commando can just continually bash away at your leg and if you have 2T ammo there, you're in trouble.

They do things differently really.

Ok so let’s remove all ghost heat rules and engine decoupling rules and leave it to the skill of the pilots.

[Mystere]

Q, on 04 April 2018 - 06:46 AM, said:

Do 3-4 machine guns feel OP? Before the Piranha came out the Lynx didn't seem to be getting that much attention... I realize there was a time before I returned that the critlynx was the bane of components, but that seemed to go away. 12 machine guns, however, just give too many opportunities to crit over one firing cycle.

Is it sacrilegious to suggest that instead of nerfing/buffing an individual weapon we instead nerf/buff the benefit of boating it? Probably not achievable in the code I'm sure, but a gradual loss of gained crit chance per MG added over say the 4th seems more fitting.

If "boating" MGs will be "nerfed", then boating (i.e. using multiples) any weapon should also be given the same treatment, with the detrimental effects directly proportional to both the number and raw damage of said weapon, over and above the existing Ghost Heat mechanic.

It's only fair.

WhineyThePoo, on 04 April 2018 - 07:19 AM, said:

I think balancing mgs is a good start.

You're going to be more specific because in these neck of the woods, a mere demand to "balance" something is code for "nerfing it into the ground".

[Q]

Mystere, on 04 April 2018 - 08:10 AM, said:

...then boating (i.e. using multiples) any weapon should also be given the same treatment...

Yes, please. Probably not a popular opinion.

[Racerxintegra2k]

Mystere, on 04 April 2018 - 08:12 AM, said:

If "boating" MGs will be "nerfed", then boating (i.e. using multiples) any weapon should also be given the same treatment, with the detrimental effects directly proportional to both the number and raw damage of said weapon, over and above the existing Ghost Heat mechanic.

It's only fair.



You're going to be more specific because in these neck of the woods, a mere demand to "balance" something is code for "nerfing it into the ground".

I think the vast majority is ok with 6 or even 8 machine guns, i believe the salt starts piling up when you hit 12 clan machine guns.

[Lethe Wyvern]

Racerxintegra2k, on 04 April 2018 - 08:28 AM, said:

I think the vast majority is ok with 6 or even 8 machine guns, i believe the salt starts piling up when you hit 12 clan machine guns.

So, i guess no salt here？

[Villainy]

Racerxintegra2k, on 04 April 2018 - 08:28 AM, said:

I think the vast majority is ok with 6 or even 8 machine guns, i believe the salt starts piling up when you hit 12 clan machine guns.

Which are torso mounted. The Myst Lynx was never the same issue because the quirks were different, and because you can blown off their arms without too much hassle. Piranhas are another story. They seem too good at everything. They can solo assaults. They can solo mediums. They can solo other lights. Not many other (read as "none") mechs have such favorable odds against seemolooloo many opponents. For a "specialist" mech, it's damn near a jack of all trades.

[Grus]

DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley, on 03 April 2018 - 07:16 PM, said:

What IS mech can take 12MG?

You’re right counter was the wrong word choice.

Let me rephrase that.

Would you rather take a Piranha or a Pirates Bane?

I said counter and I should have said what IS mech can do the same thing. This is one of the reasons Chris nerfed a certain loadout I’ve used since the first clan mechs. His exact reasoning was the IS couldn’t bring the same loadout.

PB is faster... and can carry ecm...

and stealth armor

[Nightbird]

I would prefer a pirates bane over a piranha in QP SQ, but a piranha if GQ or FP.

[Battlemaster56]

Villainy, on 04 April 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

Which are torso mounted. The Myst Lynx was never the same issue because the quirks were different, and because you can blown off their arms without too much hassle. Piranhas are another story. They seem too good at everything. They can solo assaults. They can solo mediums. They can solo other lights. Not many other (read as "none") mechs have such favorable odds against seemolooloo many opponents. For a "specialist" mech, it's damn near a jack of all trades.

Dedicated knife fighting lights like the cheetah for example will easily beat a PIR1 between two evenly skill players, mediums generally laugh at lights as they're mobile enough to keep up with lights, especially the PIR. Intelligent (key word) Assaults can survive long enough for his buddies come to chase off the PIR, or have arm mounted weapons to defend themselves from such a "menace".

And the PIR have the same odds as their opponent to outplay or outsmart them, or generally out beat them in a fight. And the PIR is not a jack of all trades, a jack of all trade mech is the Timberwolf as it can generally do any role you built it, the PIR it's fairly limited to hunter, skirmisher, or knife fighter( best variants imo 2,3,A, Cipher).

I think it time for PGI to just give the low tier whiners the hand actually listen to reasonable players.

[Dogstar]

So I just had two matches with Piranhas. In the first my Nova had both legs chewed off in maybe 10 seconds - 40 armour+structure x2. Now I was out of position and on my own but not in an assault mech. In that same time I got off two 6xERML shots which of course had very little effect. Now I'm merely an average pilot at best but if average pilots can't even take them on 1-2-1 in a medium clan mech then they're starting to look pretty OP.

In the second I was piloting my Piranha (for vengeance!) and had a conquest match on polar where I capped four points solo and still managed to get 4 kills by backstabbing their assault lance - each of which went down in a very short time - no more than 6 seconds. Again I'm an average pilot so while the damage was under 300 I single handedly got rid of 3 assaults/heavies and a medium as well as won the game on points. Average pilot. Average

Now I've had some pretty crap Piranha battles as well, no damage battles where I got hit at long range by heavy ballistics, battles where I couldn't get into brawling range and spent the match doing eff all, so it's highly situational.

The trouble lies not in clan MGs but in the fact that the Piranha exploits the TT rules to mount a ridiculous number of MGs (the highest damage per ton weapn in TT rules) but which would at least spread damage all over a mech in a TT game which mitigates it somewhat.

The trouble is that MWO allows all those hardpoints to be focused onto a single component - something the Battletech rules just aren't designed for and can't cope with.

So yes the Piranha is pretty much OP thanks to exploiting TT rules and getting an even better deal under MWO rules. It just has too many hardpoints that can fit ultra light weapons and focus them far too accurately.

and the thing is it _can't_ be fixed without nerfing either MGs or the Piranha into the ground, it's just bad design compounding more bad design and bad balance decisions.

[Nightbird]

Dogstar, on 04 April 2018 - 09:10 AM, said:

So I just had two matches with Piranhas. In the first my Nova had both legs chewed off in maybe 10 seconds - 40 armour+structure x2. Now I was out of position and on my own but not in an assault mech. In that same time I got off two 6xERML shots which of course had very little effect. Now I'm merely an average pilot at best but if average pilots can't even take them on 1-2-1 in a medium clan mech then they're starting to look pretty OP.

In the second I was piloting my Piranha (for vengeance!) and had a conquest match on polar where I capped four points solo and still managed to get 4 kills by backstabbing their assault lance - each of which went down in a very short time - no more than 6 seconds. Again I'm an average pilot so while the damage was under 300 I single handedly got rid of 3 assaults/heavies and a medium as well as won the game on points. Average pilot. Average

Now I've had some pretty crap Piranha battles as well, no damage battles where I got hit at long range by heavy ballistics, battles where I couldn't get into brawling range and spent the match doing eff all, so it's highly situational.

The trouble lies not in clan MGs but in the fact that the Piranha exploits the TT rules to mount a ridiculous number of MGs (the highest damage per ton weapn in TT rules) but which would at least spread damage all over a mech in a TT game which mitigates it somewhat.

The trouble is that MWO allows all those hardpoints to be focused onto a single component - something the Battletech rules just aren't designed for and can't cope with.

So yes the Piranha is pretty much OP thanks to exploiting TT rules and getting an even better deal under MWO rules. It just has too many hardpoints that can fit ultra light weapons and focus them far too accurately.

and the thing is it _can't_ be fixed without nerfing either MGs or the Piranha into the ground, it's just bad design compounding more bad design and bad balance decisions.

Which account did this 4 kills in a Piranha occur on? No light matches under name Dogstar for current and past seasons on leaderboard.

[Dogstar]

My clan account is Mechatankzilla and as the matches were this afternoon I'd be surprised if they showed up anywhere yet - they don't get onto the Jarl's list until after the end of the month/season.

Edited by Dogstar, 04 April 2018 - 09:28 AM.

[YueFei]

Dogstar, on 04 April 2018 - 09:10 AM, said:

So I just had two matches with Piranhas. In the first my Nova had both legs chewed off in maybe 10 seconds - 40 armour+structure x2. Now I was out of position and on my own but not in an assault mech. In that same time I got off two 6xERML shots which of course had very little effect. Now I'm merely an average pilot at best but if average pilots can't even take them on 1-2-1 in a medium clan mech then they're starting to look pretty OP.

You outrange him with the cERML. Why didn't you see him first from range and start chipping away at his health without retaliation before he closed in? Also, once he closed in, you really only needed 1 clean burn to a leg to leg him. You had the time for 2 full salvos. Just admit you had your chance and couldn't land the shot. I derp my shots all the time, and there's no one to blame except myself. When I *do* manage to nail a Piranha in the leg with the AC20+SRMs, the Piranha leg often disintegrates immediately.

Maybe because you didn't position well so that you could see and hit across key regions of the map around you? Or perhaps was it because enemy mechs with long range weapons suppressed/pinned you, and restricted your sightlines?

In either case, it's a matter of player error on your part, or good teamwork by the enemy.

But no, so many players only see the end result of a Piranha in their face chewing their legs/butts off.

[Nightbird]

Dogstar, on 04 April 2018 - 09:26 AM, said:

My clan account is Mechatankzilla and as the matches were this afternoon I'd be surprised if they showed up anywhere yet - they don't get onto the Jarl's list until after the end of the month/season.

The mwomercs.com official leaderboard updates every hour. I see that you have 11 kills over 23 matches in a light this season. This is not a criticism, I believe that 4kill match was just one instance of OPness amongst many more difficult matches. Am I wrong?

The Piranha can do well in ideal situations that are difficult to come by (cored assaults or players that gnore you as you shoot them point blank), and are terrible in other situations. As a light mech, the Cheeta and Wolfhound are actually superior in that while they are only good at what the Piranha excels at, they are also good at what the Piranha is terrible at.