352 replies to this topic

[Requiemking]

Kaeb Odellas, on 10 April 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

Do we have any information as to the nature or extent of these nerfs?

Not as of yet. It's very likely that there will be a crit chance nerf in there somewhere, which on it's own won't hurt the Piranha that much, but will hurt everything else quite badly.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Requiemking, on 10 April 2018 - 09:31 AM, said:

Not as of yet. It's very likely that there will be a crit chance nerf in there somewhere, which on it's own won't hurt the Piranha that much, but will hurt everything else quite badly.

The MG's crit bonuses are the reason mass MG boating has been a problem. If they'd replace the crit bonus with just bonus damage to structure (or heck, a straight damage buff) MG boating wouldn't be an issue.

[Nightbird]

Kaeb Odellas, on 10 April 2018 - 09:34 AM, said:

The MG's crit bonuses are the reason mass MG boating has been a problem. If they'd replace the crit bonus with just bonus damage to structure (or heck, a straight damage buff) MG boating wouldn't be an issue.

Well, it would be a pleasant surprise if they did. Experience tells me to get ready to rebuild or park the mechs.

[Requiemking]

Kaeb Odellas, on 10 April 2018 - 09:34 AM, said:

The MG's crit bonuses are the reason mass MG boating has been a problem. If they'd replace the crit bonus with just bonus damage to structure (or heck, a straight damage buff) MG boating wouldn't be an issue.

Except, they are really not? I mean, by the time an MG mech crits out all your equipment, virtually any other mech would have killed you outright. Not to mention how forgiving MWO's crit system is......

[FupDup]

Requiemking, on 10 April 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

Except, they are really not? I mean, by the time an MG mech crits out all your equipment, virtually any other mech would have killed you outright. Not to mention how forgiving MWO's crit system is......

With the equipment health reduction from PGI's "crit system rework," stuff gets critted out very quickly these days if actual crit-seeking weapons are used. Large quantities of MGs can fully strip the section in about 1-2 seconds.

[Requiemking]

FupDup, on 10 April 2018 - 09:53 AM, said:

With the equipment health reduction from PGI's "crit system rework," stuff gets critted out very quickly these days if actual crit-seeking weapons are used. Large quantities of MGs can fully strip the section in about 1-2 seconds.

Would you prefer that your engine, gyro, actuators, weapons, and ammo all be critted out? I personally would prefer being reduced to a stick, that way I can still try to be useful, rather than being reduced to a glorified statue. As I said, MWO's crit system is far more forgiving that what it should be. Also, "Large quantities", as in, the 12 or so mounted on the Piranha or the 7-8 you can mount on a couple Clan Omnimechs. Sounds to me like more of an issue with the mech than the weapon.

Edited by Requiemking, 10 April 2018 - 10:13 AM.

[FupDup]

Requiemking, on 10 April 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Would you prefer that your engine, gyro, actuators, weapons, and ammo all be critted out?

I'd prefer neither. This is a false dichotomy.

[Requiemking]

FupDup, on 10 April 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

I'd prefer neither. This is a false dichotomy.

Doesn't change the fact that MWO's crit system is way too forgiving. Not to mention, again, the current MG issues are an issue with a few specific mechs, not an issue with the weapon. I've yet to see a Locust 1V or an Ember or an Arrow reduce a mech to a stick in the time people claims it takes. Its always the Piranha.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Requiemking, on 10 April 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

Except, they are really not? I mean, by the time an MG mech crits out all your equipment, virtually any other mech would have killed you outright. Not to mention how forgiving MWO's crit system is......

Actually, it doesn't even take that long to outright destroy a component with massed MGs. I was able to kill a fresh Blackjack from behind in my Piranha before he even had the chance to twist.

[Requiemking]

Kaeb Odellas, on 10 April 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

Actually, it doesn't even take that long to outright destroy a component with massed MGs. I was able to kill a fresh Blackjack from behind in my Piranha before he even had the chance to twist.

Again, Piranha. Put the blame on the mech, not the weapon.

[FupDup]

Requiemking, on 10 April 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

Doesn't change the fact that MWO's crit system is way too forgiving.

Based on what objective metric? The belief that TT's crit system is the golden balanced baseline to aspire towards is a preference or opinion. Not a fact.

Requiemking, on 10 April 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

Not to mention, again, the current MG issues are an issue with a few specific mechs, not an issue with the weapon. I've yet to see a Locust 1V or an Ember or an Arrow reduce a mech to a stick in the time people claims it takes. Its always the Piranha.

It's kind of both, the distinction is that most current mechs can't carry enough MGs to take advantage of their mechanics. That doesn't mean that the base MGs don't have that capability, it just means that the number of platforms which can fully leverage them is a very short list.

It's kind of like how twin PPC + twin Gauss was never a concern at all until the Dire Whale showed up.

With that being said I would prefer the Piranha just get some quirk nerfage rather than risk collateral damage against other "innocent" mechs like the Shadow Kitty and Viper.

Edited by FupDup, 10 April 2018 - 10:25 AM.

[Requiemking]

FupDup, on 10 April 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

Based on what objective metric? The belief that TT's crit system is the golden balanced baseline to aspire towards is a preference or opinion. Not a fact.


It's kind of both, the distinction is that most current mechs can't carry enough MGs to take advantage of their mechanics. That doesn't mean that the base MGs don't have that capability, it just means that the number of platforms which can fully leverage them is a very short list.

It's kind of like how twin PPC + twin Gauss was never a concern at all until the Dire Whale showed up.

With that being said I would prefer the Piranha just get some quirk nerfage rather than risk collateral damage against other "innocent" mechs like the Shadow Kitty and Viper.

I personally think that mechs that can boat more that 6 MGs should get a "-MG crit chance quirk". That way, the only mechs that are hurt are the mechs boating a stupid number of them.

[FupDup]

Requiemking, on 10 April 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

I personally think that mechs that can boat more that 6 MGs should get a "-MG crit chance quirk". That way, the only mechs that are hurt are the mechs boating a stupid number of them.

If PGI really has to they could make up some kind of "Ghost" system. Or just use Ghost Heat, giving MGs 0.001 base heat (because you can't multiply from zero) and then having a huge heat multiplier if you have more than 6-8 of them.

[UnKnownPlayer]

blah blah blah, PIR with MGs has a DPS of 12 or something AGAINST ARMOUR.

This is more than most assault sustained DPS and is heat neutral.
So more dmg than an assault doing 140kph and weiging 20 tons.

If you are in to internals it is 22 DPS.
It can also stand inside the legs of many assaults and take no return fire.

I know what you are going to say "learn the maps" "work as a team" etc. some of which is true.

TBH all of these things would be fixed if PGI sorted the net code so that anything going over 140kph could actually be hit reliably.

[MechaBattler]

Could always give them an 'ammo feed' bar similar to RACs. So 3 to 4 drains it at a reasonable rate. But every MG after is draining it faster and faster. "Ghost Ammo Feed". Spooky Ammo. Ooooo.

[UnKnownPlayer]

MechaBattler, on 10 April 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

Could always give them an 'ammo feed' bar similar to RACs. So 3 to 4 drains it at a reasonable rate. But every MG after is draining it faster and faster. "Ghost Ammo Feed". Spooky Ammo. Ooooo.

That is actually a good idea..... are you sure you belong on the forums?

[dario03]

Dogstar, on 10 April 2018 - 07:12 AM, said:

You and others keep saying this but it's not true, it's just a logical fallacy, and it doesn't get any truer when you keep repeating it.

Some pilots, in some situations, have no trouble dealing with OP lights. Other pilots, in other situations, are complete toast.

From the level of ire on the forums it seems that more players are getting toasted than is sensible.

People keep saying it because it is true. All 3 of those mechs have little armor, and the more common builds have short range. They are glass cannons, that in those right situations can do good, and in those bad situations do not.

Look at it this way
A light, a medium, a heavy, and an assault walk into a bar. Which one gets focused first?
Answer: Not the light, but yet due to their strengths the other mechs (especially the assaults and heavies) are often times the top damage dealers.

Sure sometimes you might get focused in the light but usually they are a low priority target. You also might get top damage, but if the lights were so op they would be putting up gigantic numbers far more often. Instead people see a light in a good match doing ~800 and think its op even though thats very common for bigger mechs. Put up 1200+ in another mech though, and its wow good job man.
If you get focused in a light for anything more than a second by players that can shoot you die. And if they can't shoot they can just use the built in aimbot aka streaks.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

UnKnownPlayer, on 10 April 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

blah blah blah, PIR with MGs has a DPS of 12 or something AGAINST ARMOUR.

This is more than most assault sustained DPS and is heat neutral.
So more dmg than an assault doing 140kph and weiging 20 tons.

If you are in to internals it is 22 DPS.
It can also stand inside the legs of many assaults and take no return fire.

I know what you are going to say "learn the maps" "work as a team" etc. some of which is true.

TBH all of these things would be fixed if PGI sorted the net code so that anything going over 140kph could actually be hit reliably.

That obligatory "netcode is the reason we can't hit this light" though...

Anyway, if your DPS assault is putting out less DPS than a Piranha then you might want to rethink your builds. Alternatively compare your alpha damage to the Piranha's.

[SilentWolff]

What do you expect. This community is soft af. If they aint complaining about something, they aint happy.

[UnKnownPlayer]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 10 April 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

That obligatory "netcode is the reason we can't hit this light" though...

Anyway, if your DPS assault is putting out less DPS than a Piranha then you might want to rethink your builds. Alternatively compare your alpha damage to the Piranha's.

SUSTAINABLE dps, not simple burst but sustainable, because lights have a lower heat capacity and heat dissipation they should be able to do less damage over time. The heat neutral MG builds negate this and therefore out perform ALL non MG builds for sustainable dps, if that isn't excessive then i dont know what is.