177 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Have you tried a clan SRM6 even with artemis? Good luck killing something before it kills you.

like I said I would increase the ghost heat limit on SRMs from 4 to 5-6

rather than tightening the spread I would increase how many SRMs can be fired at once.

because SRMs are supposed to be spread weapons. but for spread weapons to work they need to have higher alphastrike potential than pinpoint weapons. which is why a ghost heat limit of 4 on SRM6s makes no sense.

I could also get behind increasing the damage per missile to 2.15 for clans and 2.3 for IS. But I think the spread needs to stay where its at, because spread weapons spread, its what they do.

Edited by Khobai, 27 May 2018 - 09:35 PM.

[Xetelian]

Increasing SRM6a values from 4 to 6 isn't going to help the mechs with only 4 missile hardpoints like the Orion IIC A.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 27 May 2018 - 09:30 PM, said:

because SRMs are supposed to be spread weapons. but for spread weapons to work they need to have higher alphastrike potential than pinpoint weapons. which is why a ghost heat limit of 4 on SRM6s makes no sense.

I could also get behind increasing the damage per missile to 2.15 for clans and 2.3 for IS. But I think the spread needs to stay where its at, because spread weapons spread, its what they do.

Nobody's asking for them to be pinpoint, the idea is that their spread is too high to the point of restricting them to basically melee combat (270m optimal range is a big fat lie). It also reinforces the need to boat SRMs to make them usable (small numbers of them are useless). Reducing the spread a bit doesn't suddenly make them not be spread weapons.

[Khobai]

Spread isnt the problem. MRM60 has even worse spread and its still fine. Why? because of the sheer volume of missiles it can alphastrike at once.

The problem with SRMs is that ghost heat limits and general stingyness of missile hardpoints prevents SRMs from reaching the same critical mass that MRMs can achieve.

if MRMs are ghost heat limited at 60 damage, then SRMs should be ghost heated at higher than 60 damage, because SRMs are a far more restrictive weapon.

that means SRM6 ghost heat limit should be 5-6. not 4.

and missile brawlers in general need more missile hardpoints to support more SRM launchers. alternatively you could increase the damage per missile on SRMs to make a smaller number of launchers more effective.

Edited by Khobai, 27 May 2018 - 09:59 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 27 May 2018 - 09:50 PM, said:

Spread isnt the problem. MRM60 has even worse spread and its still fine. Why? because of the sheer volume of missiles.

The problem with SRMs is that ghost heat limits and general stingyness of missile hardpoints prevents SRMs from reaching the same critical mass that MRMs can achieve.

But you're still missing the issue of the weapons being useful ONLY in critical mass.

[Khobai]

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But you're still missing the issue of the weapons being useful ONLY in critical mass.

that was an unintended side effect of adding MRMs. suddenly you had missile weapons that were very hardpoint efficient.

SRMs can never hope to be as hardpoint efficient as MRMs.

the only way to fix SRMs is to increase to number of missile hardpoints on missile brawlers. And increase the ghost heat limit on SRMs to allow SRMs to reach the same critical mass as MRMs.

if MRMs are ghost heat limited at 60 damage. SRMs should probably be ghost heat limited around 80 damage due to their added restrictions. Which means most SRM brawlers need to be able to carry at least 6 launchers and fire them without ghost heat. Theres also some wiggle room to increase SRM damage per missile as well.

Edited by Khobai, 27 May 2018 - 10:08 PM.

[Battlemaster56]

So my MDD A torso's, and whatever Archer variant be even more deadiler with sheer firepower and most likely asking for a excuse to nerf srm's even further, despite being next to useless in the current meta that not Sol.7. Srms need some their nerfs reverted espically for clans their spead is just so bad at times I don't bother with the weapons at time.

[Xetelian]

SRMs are garbage right now, which is why people are bringing MRMs more often.

[Battlemaster56]

Best reason I even bother with mrms it a nice boost to damage and help soften up assaults with sheer firepower, that isn't laser vomit or ATM in brawling range.

[MTier Slayed Up]

I have more of a fear of SRMs than I do of MRM's...Maybe I don't brawl often enough, or maybe I find that MRM's have some terrible spread damage that you can twist out of...Or get behind cover...SRM's are a commitment, someone's going to die.


What's this topic again? Death of agility, moar laser boating? 2 years ago, I remember people complaining endlessly about the Oxide. I find lasers underwhelming to today vs then. Just ballistic spam people, you'll get a chubby.

Edited by DrtyDshSoap, 28 May 2018 - 05:38 AM.

[lazorbeamz]

Srm are for light, mediums and some select heavies.

In fact srm 2 have some absurd DPS per ton values and are ideal for mechs which have a dozen of missile hardpoints. Similarly to ac2 srm2 is a huge DPS weapon but you need lots of missile hardpoints. In return you get dps values which are higher then an average mech within said tonnage range.

You can link srm6 with ac20 and twist. or go full dps and facetime with lots of srm 2. They arent bad, they just shine on lighter mechs.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 28 May 2018 - 06:23 AM.

[Xetelian]

DrtyDshSoap, on 28 May 2018 - 05:37 AM, said:

I have more of a fear of SRMs than I do of MRM's...Maybe I don't brawl often enough, or maybe I find that MRM's have some terrible spread damage that you can twist out of...Or get behind cover...SRM's are a commitment, someone's going to die.


What's this topic again? Death of agility, moar laser boating? 2 years ago, I remember people complaining endlessly about the Oxide. I find lasers underwhelming to today vs then. Just ballistic spam people, you'll get a chubby.

You apparently haven't had a match with a brawling and competent TBT with MRM60 and 20-30% cool down.

[Khobai]

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In fact srm 2 have some absurd DPS per ton values and are ideal for mechs which have a dozen of missile hardpoints.

there are no mechs with a dozen missile hardpoints. the most any clan mech has is 6. and 8 for IS.

mechs lacking missile hardpoints is part of the reason why SRMs cant compete with MRMs. ghost heat is the other part.


MRM60 can do 60 damage with only 2 missile hardpoints. And it has no ghost heat.

For SRM6s to do the same 60 damage you need 5 missile hardpoints. And you have to suffer ghost heat. On top of SRMs having less range and less velocity than MRMs.

So yeah thats why SRMs suck.

For SRMs to be competitive, SRMs need to completely dominate MRMs under 270m, and that just isnt the case.

Edited by Khobai, 28 May 2018 - 09:28 AM.

[Battlemaster56]

Khobai, on 28 May 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:

there are no mechs with a dozen missile hardpoints. the most any clan mech has is 6. and 8 for IS.

mechs lacking missile hardpoints is part of the reason why SRMs cant compete with MRMs. ghost heat is the other part.


MRM60 can do 60 damage with only 2 missile hardpoints. And it has no ghost heat.

For SRM6s to do the same 60 damage you need 5 missile hardpoints. And you have to suffer ghost heat. On top of SRMs having less range and less velocity than MRMs.

So yeah thats why SRMs suck.

For SRMs to be competitive, SRMs need to completely dominate MRMs under 270m, and that just isnt the case.

Arctic Wolf 1 has 9 Missile HP's, and the additional heat of 3.15 for the fifth srm6 is not gonna hurt any mech.

Also 60 damage that easily spreadable til the guy decide to face hug, or simple move out the way of most of the damage unless your in a assault make the damage not scary most of the time.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 28 May 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:

there are no mechs with a dozen missile hardpoints. the most any clan mech has is 6. and 8 for IS.

Clan 'Mechs have up to 9 missile hardpoints: Huntsman can do 8 with the Hero omnipods and Arctic Wolf 1 can do 9.

[Xetelian]

Khobai, on 27 May 2018 - 09:50 PM, said:

Spread isnt the problem. MRM60 has even worse spread and its still fine. Why? because of the sheer volume of missiles it can alphastrike at once.

The problem with SRMs is that ghost heat limits and general stingyness of missile hardpoints prevents SRMs from reaching the same critical mass that MRMs can achieve.

60 missiles vs 24 missiles is a huge difference. Regardless of the spread.

MRMs get more range and can have a higher alpha even if they hose the enemy they are still shooting 60 missiles.

Problem with SRMs is that the 24 missiles also hose the enemy unless you're 90m apart and even then you hose the enemy if your convergence is garbage like on the ON1 IIC A.

[Khobai]

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Clan 'Mechs have up to 9 missile hardpoints: Huntsman can do 8 with the Hero omnipods and Arctic Wolf 1 can do 9

I stand corrected.

but my point remains that MRMs are considerably more efficient than SRMs and that SRMs can never hope to achieve the same hardpoint compactness as MRMs.

the fact SRMs need 5+ hardpoints to do the same damage as MRMs with 2 hardpoints is definitely a problem. Especially since SRMs are the more restrictive of the two weapons.

In order to compete with MRMs, Mechs that are supposed to use SRMs need 5-6 missile hardpoints. And Ghost heat on SRMs needs to be raised to 5-6. That way SRMs have an edge over MRMs in total damage done.

Edited by Khobai, 28 May 2018 - 04:48 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 28 May 2018 - 04:43 PM, said:

I stand corrected.

but my point remains that MRMs are considerably more efficient than SRMs and that SRMs can never hope to achieve the same hardpoint compactness as MRMs.

the fact SRMs need 5+ hardpoints to do the same damage as MRMs with 2 hardpoints is definitely a problem. Especially since SRMs are the more restrictive of the two weapons.

Sure, MRMs are super hard-point efficient. That said, although they are their own can of worms with their own advantages and drawbacks, ATMs are almost comparably tonnage efficient; up to 36 vs. 40, with lower tonnage requirements. They don't operate the same way at all, but it's a thing.

I'm not really convinced that looking at total potential damage is the way to go, though. A tighter SRM grouping will do that damage far more efficiently than MRMs within its own range bracket. But, since PGI nerfed the spread on the SRM4 and Artemis as a whole, they can't get there and MRMs remain just as good in a brawl through sheer volume.

[Khobai]

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I'm not really convinced that looking at total potential damage is the way to go, though. A tighter SRM grouping will do that damage far more efficiently than MRMs within its own range bracket.

tighter spread wont fix everything thats wrong with SRMs.

even if all the SRMs hit and 20% of the MRMs miss, the MRMs still come out ahead

you can tighten the spread on SRMs, but they need way more than that to fix whats wrong with them.

but honestly im okay with their spread staying as is if all the other problems are fixed, because I think they should be a spread weapon.

Edited by Khobai, 28 May 2018 - 10:12 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 28 May 2018 - 10:10 PM, said:

tighter spread wont fix everything thats wrong with SRMs.

It did before.

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even if all the SRMs hit and 20% of the MRMs miss, the MRMs still come out ahead

Not really. Not with the cooldown on the MRMs where it is.