190 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

Alexander of Macedon, on 09 June 2018 - 12:36 PM, said:

Yes they can. The usual route is to have a half-decent matchmaker so that there's a roughly equal distribution of bad between the two teams.

If no changes to PSR thresholds/calculations, then besides Tier and weight class, what other stat should be used? MS itself, and if MS, how far back should it go for averages?

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 09 June 2018 - 04:34 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

Samial, on 08 June 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

Seriously my ego is fine, i know i do average but i don't condescend to others on purpose.. If i did, apologies..

No its too quick, way too quick to be a Battletech game..

Do you play hbs battletech?

The ttk there is even lower. And it's lance-based. In that game, your 4 mechs put out enough firepower to finish most missions in 7-10 turns including moving around and stuff. Sometimes you even take out multiple lances within those turns.

Each turn is 10 seconds when translated to real time.

Mwo's ttk is roughly 3 times higher than that or a lot more considering we're going 12v12 and finishing matches in ~5 min per drop.

Samial, on 08 June 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

Seriously my ego is fine, i know i do average but i don't condescend to others on purpose.. If i did, apologies..

No its too quick, way too quick to be a Battletech game..

Do you play hbs battletech?

The ttk there is even lower. And it's lance-based. In that game, your 4 mechs put out enough firepower to finish most missions in 7-10 turns including moving around and stuff. Sometimes you even take out multiple lances within those turns.

Each turn is 10 seconds when translated to real time.

Mwo's ttk is roughly 3 times higher than that or a lot more considering we're going 12v12 and finishing matches in ~5 min per drop.

[S O L A I S]

PGI seems pretty set about matchmaker as working as intended.

So change your perspective and consider when you drop quickplay you are not on a team. You are on a side. Just do you best to shoot the red doritos and not get caught by yourself.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Tarl Cabot, on 09 June 2018 - 04:32 PM, said:

If no changes to PSR thresholds/calculations, then besides Tier and weight class, what other stat should be used? MS itself, and if MS, how far back should it go for averages?

Obviously the system needs to be overhauled. But it's fallacious and rather absurd to suggest that good matchmaking is impossible when it's a fairly normal state of affairs in multiplayer gaming.

Now, the question of whether it's likely that PGI is both willing and able to do so, that's another thing entirely.

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 09 June 2018 - 05:13 PM.

[Anastasius Foht]

Tarl Cabot, on 09 June 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

Grats!! What tier did you just move up into? Going on 4 seasons (4 months) and 1300+ games.. breathe!!! And on that game, that is a lot of damage output, meaning the damage was not pin point enough to not to more critical locations.

The Tier 1-2 screenshots posted earlier in this thread (12-2) 4273 dmg vs 2302 dmg or (12-8) 4336 dmg vs 4508 dmg compared to your match (12-8) 4439 dmg vs 5388 dmg. Lots of LRMS? It is not doing damage but where that damage it being placed.

The one thing I think many of us would like to see is the health percentage of the surviving mechs at the end of the match. To help envision how close the match really was or how bad a stomp it really was. And show the players tiers for those who have opt to show them, as they do in the forums.

Im almost get to tier 2 in 2 seasons improving my playstyle from each game ( 13 games in that first one almost nothing), under tier up i mean i get "+ green arrow" for that defeat, not whole Tier. About Lrms - yes archer and catapult 800+600 dmg probably was too spalshed, mine was from ballistic and i aim for torso exlusively.

[Brain Cancer]

JadeLight, on 09 June 2018 - 01:39 AM, said:

PGI can't fix stupid. when your team charges into the enemy one by one, there is nothing PGI can do.

Sure they could, but they made sure the PSR system would promote you to the highest ranks while continuing to be stupid, guaranteeing your presence no matter how much other players try to improve to avoid it.

Frustration with bads- not just "oh, he had a bad game" but "he hasn't learned a thing since cadet bonus" is one of the caustic reasons MWO's player pool continues to suffer.

At the least, the match score points at which we gain/hold/advance in tier bars should go up with Tier.

A game with X match score should not be worth the same amount of advancement at T1 as it is in T5, if it's worth any advancement or even being enough to prevent tier bars going in reverse. T1 should take exceptional effort, T2 regularly exceptional scores, and T3 should be the "norm", with T4 being below that and T5's patted on the head for "at least you tried" games with minimal loss of progress.

[Dogstar]

Brain Cancer, on 09 June 2018 - 06:04 PM, said:

A game with X match score should not be worth the same amount of advancement at T1 as it is in T5, if it's worth any advancement or even being enough to prevent tier bars going in reverse. T1 should take exceptional effort, T2 regularly exceptional scores, and T3 should be the "norm", with T4 being below that and T5's patted on the head for "at least you tried" games with minimal loss of progress.

Trouble with that is that T1s should not face T3s in that situation which means the pools for matchmaking get significantly smaller and possibly non-existent at certain times of day which then results in having to broaden the matchmaking and hey presto were back to where we are now. Unless you'd rather lose a whole bunch of players who can't get matches in their time-zones.

Balancing the teams is the only way to resolve this, the matchmaker needs to do some more complicated work to weigh players and mechs before allocating them to a team.

[Cloves]

I think folks who live in Oceania suffer a completely different experience in MWO. There is enough cross-over in EU and NA timezones that our playerbase provides a different experience. As we know, PGI applies the spreadsheet approach to programming. The AU folks can be quite vocal about their tier mixing issues. They are probably 1/10th the MWO population at best and in such a small population I am sure will stress any MM. When your PSR does not accurately reflect your average contribution, it shows in this environment first and fast.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

At this point, it would be not too much if we disable the matchmaker alltogether. I get more even matches in faction then in quickplay thanks to mm 2.0.

[Christophe Ivanov]

Right now after 16 matches, I'm taking time out. I play QP only and lately I see nearly in every match, folks taking off in the 4 winds where we lose the match. I get it you want "THAT KILL" we all do. But do it with TEAM EFFORT if you must please. I would have expected by now in Tier 3 and 2 level where I am at currently, this would be a normal thing.
Am I wrong to think this way?

[Brain Cancer]

Dogstar, on 10 June 2018 - 01:48 AM, said:

Trouble with that is that T1s should not face T3s in that situation which means the pools for matchmaking get significantly smaller and possibly non-existent at certain times of day which then results in having to broaden the matchmaking and hey presto were back to where we are now. Unless you'd rather lose a whole bunch of players who can't get matches in their time-zones.

We can just keep sticking them into the grinder until they get sick of that instead, if you like. It's one of the reasons we've steadily bled playerbase- good players getting sick of having bad players parked on their teams, over and over and over and over and over and over again while you try and carry them, which just means more bad players end up in the queue because you're literally pulling them up on your back. Eventually, you either become so good that you regularly carry games singlehandedly or you get stuck with frustrating games on a regular basis.

The poison of what we have now may feel good in terms of matches now, but it's been turning the player pool into a stagnant pool where you just plain cringe when you see that good player on the other side and know looking at yours that the whole team is there literally to be used for target practice.

And that's precisely what happens. Either we actually try and split players by skill level to some extent, or we may as well eliminate PSR and Tier entirely and just stuff them all into the same queue, because that's what we actually have now.

Quote

Balancing the teams is the only way to resolve this, the matchmaker needs to do some more complicated work to weigh players and mechs before allocating them to a team.

To balance the teams, you actually have to sort the wolves from the sheep to at least some extent. What frightens me is that even something as dumb as saying "anyone who hasn't scored 8 or more kills in a match", "anyone who hasn't scored 5 or more kills in a match", and "anyone who hasn't scored 3 or more kills in match" would actually separate out the player pool better than the current system, despite being an otherwise ridiculous measure of things.

Think about that. Imagine if T1, T2, T3 (T4 being you hadn't gotten 3+ ever, T5 being cadet bonus level/no more than 1 kill in a game). was simply based on your capacity to have made lots of kills in a match.

It'd even end seal clubbing. Your account ganks half the enemy team? Welcome to T3, buddy!

[Zibmo]

Christophe Ivanov, on 10 June 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

Right now after 16 matches, I'm taking time out. I play QP only and lately I see nearly in every match, folks taking off in the 4 winds where we lose the match. I get it you want "THAT KILL" we all do. But do it with TEAM EFFORT if you must please. I would have expected by now in Tier 3 and 2 level where I am at currently, this would be a normal thing.
Am I wrong to think this way?

I play mainly lights and mediums. I keep experiencing the "leader" saying "PUSH!!!!". The only ones who push are the lights and mediums.

Sick to death of people protecting their paint jobs. And then, those lardasses have awesome damage - 0 kills and 200 damage. In a frigging Blood Asp / Dire Wolf.

Then they die anyway. While not accomplishing one. damned. thing.

[Cloves]

Brain Cancer, on 10 June 2018 - 05:05 PM, said:

We can just keep sticking them into the grinder until they get sick of that instead, if you like. It's one of the reasons we've steadily bled playerbase- good players getting sick of having bad players parked on their teams, over and over and over and over and over and over again while you try and carry them, which just means more bad players end up in the queue because you're literally pulling them up on your back. Eventually, you either become so good that you regularly carry games singlehandedly or you get stuck with frustrating games on a regular basis.

The poison of what we have now may feel good in terms of matches now, but it's been turning the player pool into a stagnant pool where you just plain cringe when you see that good player on the other side and know looking at yours that the whole team is there literally to be used for target practice.

And that's precisely what happens. Either we actually try and split players by skill level to some extent, or we may as well eliminate PSR and Tier entirely and just stuff them all into the same queue, because that's what we actually have now.



To balance the teams, you actually have to sort the wolves from the sheep to at least some extent. What frightens me is that even something as dumb as saying "anyone who hasn't scored 8 or more kills in a match", "anyone who hasn't scored 5 or more kills in a match", and "anyone who hasn't scored 3 or more kills in match" would actually separate out the player pool better than the current system, despite being an otherwise ridiculous measure of things.

Think about that. Imagine if T1, T2, T3 (T4 being you hadn't gotten 3+ ever, T5 being cadet bonus level/no more than 1 kill in a game). was simply based on your capacity to have made lots of kills in a match.

It'd even end seal clubbing. Your account ganks half the enemy team? Welcome to T3, buddy!

So 5 card Charlie is two and ace of spades is 1? What is Death Star?

[RickySpanish]

Brain Cancer, on 10 June 2018 - 05:05 PM, said:

We can just keep sticking them into the grinder until they get sick of that instead, if you like. It's one of the reasons we've steadily bled playerbase- good players getting sick of having bad players parked on their teams, over and over and over and over and over and over again while you try and carry them, which just means more bad players end up in the queue because you're literally pulling them up on your back. Eventually, you either become so good that you regularly carry games singlehandedly or you get stuck with frustrating games on a regular basis.

The poison of what we have now may feel good in terms of matches now, but it's been turning the player pool into a stagnant pool where you just plain cringe when you see that good player on the other side and know looking at yours that the whole team is there literally to be used for target practice.

And that's precisely what happens. Either we actually try and split players by skill level to some extent, or we may as well eliminate PSR and Tier entirely and just stuff them all into the same queue, because that's what we actually have now.



To balance the teams, you actually have to sort the wolves from the sheep to at least some extent. What frightens me is that even something as dumb as saying "anyone who hasn't scored 8 or more kills in a match", "anyone who hasn't scored 5 or more kills in a match", and "anyone who hasn't scored 3 or more kills in match" would actually separate out the player pool better than the current system, despite being an otherwise ridiculous measure of things.

Think about that. Imagine if T1, T2, T3 (T4 being you hadn't gotten 3+ ever, T5 being cadet bonus level/no more than 1 kill in a game). was simply based on your capacity to have made lots of kills in a match.

It'd even end seal clubbing. Your account ganks half the enemy team? Welcome to T3, buddy!

Perhaps you're making a point, but obviously your idea would not work better, as anyone that suddenly makes a 3/5 kill game will leep into the middle tier and stay there, while anyone in T1 will have gotten lucky. The truth is that, surprisingly, it's hard to make a decent match maker with the number of variables at play in MWO. I have yet to see a single suggestion for an improvement to the MM on this forum that hasn't had some obvious flaw in it willfully ignored by whomever got triggered enough to come here to have an attention seeking cry for the evening.

[Cloves]

Thing is you can consistently 5 card charlie in high tier matches currently(at least once a season), I can only imagine it's easier in lower tier matches. Would that make anyone who could do it once stuck in tier 2 forever? Same idea (much harder) with ace of spades, do it once, tier one permanently? We just need to fix the upward trend in PSR. Set it to -250 matchscore to start so folks can actually go down.

[Mister Glitchdragon]

Thanos Kerensky, on 04 June 2018 - 12:50 PM, said:

The teams were just...incomprehensibly bad, and maybe I was too

So, you KNOW your teammates were "just... incoprehesibly bad," but when it comes to your own performance, it's "maybe I was too."

I find that odd, because when I'm bad, I know it. Certainly with more certainty than I know how other people on my team are doing. Maybe you're being humble. I'd love to see the scorecards for those 10 matches, if just to get past the humility/denial and see who was really doing/not doing what. I guess I could look you up on the leaderboards to get a sense of which it might be, but I don't really care enough to go through the hassle. I don't even know why I care enough to post th

[Besh]

Cloves, on 10 June 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

Thing is you can consistently 5 card charlie in high tier matches currently(at least once a season), I can only imagine it's easier in lower tier matches. Would that make anyone who could do it once stuck in tier 2 forever? Same idea (much harder) with ace of spades, do it once, tier one permanently? We just need to fix the upward trend in PSR. Set it to -250 matchscore to start so folks can actually go down.

Yeah....no .

250 Matchscore is a no Brainer in quite a few Medium and Heavy Chassis - tbh., with some it feels like all you need to do is point and click and *bling* 250 Matchscore . Lights....weeeeelllll...not so much .

So in effect, if you make 250 MatchScore your Threshhold, you may end up with a Situation where you relegate dedicated, or main Light Pilots into lower Skilled Tiers, while pulling people who simply Pilot EZmode Chassis, but still have no clue of Teamwork, positioning, FocusFire etc. into higher skilled Tier .

Though I guess it would be brutally funny for a while if many of the dedicated, or main Light Pilots would get relegated to T4, T5 with time....for a few days . Until the "them wreaking Havoc" will have triggered the next Nerfahmmerfest .

Edited by Besh, 11 June 2018 - 12:28 AM.

[Wil McCullough]

Besh, on 11 June 2018 - 12:26 AM, said:

Yeah....no .

250 Matchscore is a no Brainer in quite a few Medium and Heavy Chassis - tbh., with some it feels like all you need to do is point and click and *bling* 250 Matchscore . Lights....weeeeelllll...not so much .

So in effect, if you make 250 MatchScore your Threshhold, you may end up with a Situation where you relegate dedicated, or main Light Pilots into lower Skilled Tiers, while pulling people who simply Pilot EZmode Chassis, but still have no clue of Teamwork, positioning, FocusFire etc. into higher skilled Tier .

Though I guess it would be brutally funny for a while if many of the dedicated, or main Light Pilots would get relegated to T4, T5 with time....for a few days . Until the "them wreaking Havoc" will have triggered the next Nerfahmmerfest .

The shenanigans light pilots will be able to pull off against t4-5s would be glorious.

That had that going for it.

[Cloves]

Light pilots are already undervalued by the PSR system. That’s the reason so many are so good- you have to be in order to get any results in them. This is just another reason why they are 10% of the drop pop. PGI will have to do another bandaid matchscore boost like they currently do for lights. Look again at your matchscore and earnings in a light, how much comes from nonsense like protected, flanking, hit and run, in formation, and other PGI devices to make up for them not doing the same damage?

[Weeny Machine]

Besh, on 11 June 2018 - 12:26 AM, said:

Yeah....no .

250 Matchscore is a no Brainer in quite a few Medium and Heavy Chassis - tbh., with some it feels like all you need to do is point and click and *bling* 250 Matchscore . Lights....weeeeelllll...not so much .

So in effect, if you make 250 MatchScore your Threshhold, you may end up with a Situation where you relegate dedicated, or main Light Pilots into lower Skilled Tiers, while pulling people who simply Pilot EZmode Chassis, but still have no clue of Teamwork, positioning, FocusFire etc. into higher skilled Tier .

Though I guess it would be brutally funny for a while if many of the dedicated, or main Light Pilots would get relegated to T4, T5 with time....for a few days . Until the "them wreaking Havoc" will have triggered the next Nerfahmmerfest .

Some people still whine about lights being OP. People who pilot laser-spam-alpha mechs with tunnel-vision goggles on That's why PGI refrains from giving out some needed buffs to the light class