864 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

But then you are only thinking about yourself here as you often do. Not what is good for MWO, and allowing 2mans, into SoloQ, is not good.

right... being concerned about new player experience is totally me thinking about myself.

forcing new players who wanna play with friends into group queue is whats not good for MWO.

2 of my friends quit the game after about 2 weeks because they hated group queue so much. its not a good environment for new players. And they didnt want to solo drop they wanted to play with me or eachother.

again I dont think one 2 man per team in solo queue would be a problem. the matchmaker just needs to actually put players of equal skill on both sides. And use an actual ELO based system instead of an experience bar.

Quote

With sync dropping, they will frequently end up on opposite sides, if even in the same match. Thus making it harder to stack teams.

youve missed the point. the point is that people hate group queue so much they will go to extremes like syncdropping just to try and play together outside of group queue.

the very fact that players resort to syncdropping is indicative of a bigger problem.

PGI should just let people play with a friend in solo queue. instead of having to sync drop with 25%-33% success rates. And come up with a matchmaker that actually works to balance things out.

Edited by Khobai, 24 June 2018 - 07:09 PM.

[MischiefSC]

justcallme A S H, on 24 June 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

Just because a 2-man comprising of someone and yourself wouldn't (And there I 100% agree with you).

However that does not mean for a second that it's not going to happen when there are actually solid players in a 2-man, who will just wipe the floor. It will happen because I do it now in GroupQ if I play with any number of people I have on my friends list.

Honestly yes it would. It doesn't take a 1%er to swing the match significantly.

2mans in pug queue are doubling their control of their teams skill level. You are 100% certain to have a useful teammate each match. Just like in FW with whatever the largest team in a drop is (or even GQ most the time) the 2man will have a significantly better ability to give directions that will be listened to by the puggles.

Beyond which the presence of a 2man dilutes the impact of the pugs on their team - the 2man is now the core of the drop around which the pugs are built if you're going to have a 2man on each team.

Anyone who doesn't understand WHY this is significant is fooling themselves.

EMP would gain way more for the mythical 'stat padding' from being able to drop a 2man in QP than they do in group queue anyway. The whole argument swings between the blatantly dishonest ('Oh it's, err, just for wait times. No, I don't want to consider any other solution' or the amazing 'Oh, big groups in group queue or any groups in FW are broken and unfair to pugs, but this is magically totes okay' and everyones favorite 'think of the children! Err, new players! Yes, the reason we don't have new players is no 2mans in QP. Please ignore that the biggest influx of players that stayed was when NPE was way worse than now. THIS IS ABOUT THE GOOD OF THE CHILDREN YOU MONSTER!') and insanely selfish ('Yes but I lose in GQ all the time, if I can play in a group vs pugs it'll be more "fun", by which I mean I'll win more while still being bad at the game. If you don't change the game to let me play with an advantage then everyone will quit and MWO will fail completely and I'll hold my breath until I turn blue and you'll RUE THE DAY!')

2mans are the majority of drops in GQ. PGI has said so - repeatedly. 2mans win all the time; it's statistically impossible for 2mans to be the majority of drops and to paradoxically lose the majority of matches. The reality is that bad players lose the majority of their drops in any queue. Part of being bad and staying bad is trying to justify how being bad isn't your fault but everyone elses and everything and everyone else needs to change so you win more without having to improve.

Which is what makes this thread so funny. It's people trying to get the game changed to give them an advantage for selfish reasons - ironic as that good players (who know how stupid the idea is) would benefit the most from it.

[S O L A I S]

Dogstar, on 23 June 2018 - 11:26 PM, said:

Fixed that for you

No you changed it to your narrative ignoring all the reasons why the idea is bad and without any merit. Like I said go read Paul's latest thread to get a better understanding about what is going on with matchmaker. Then watch some of the top players who stream and try and figure out why you can't put two guys from Emp on a team in quick play.

Either way PGI is not going to do it. It is not just a good portion of the player base that doesn't want solo queue to be anything other than solo queue. Keep up it though I love the way you are going on. BTW I don't even play quick play, I pretty much stick to CW.

So I don't have a horse in the race even and my point is more that there needs to be pinned to explain to you folks the what and whys. Although clearly you wouldn't listen and would rather stomp your feet.

[Cloves]

Khobai, on 24 June 2018 - 06:54 PM, said:

right... being concerned about new player experience is totally me thinking about myself.

forcing new players who wanna play with friends into group queue is whats not good for MWO.

again I dont think 2 mans in solo queue would be a problem. the matchmaker just needs to actually put players of equal skill on both sides. And use an actual ELO based system instead of an experience bar.



youve missed the point. the point is that people hate group queue so much they will go to extremes like syncdropping just to try and play together outside of group queue.

the very fact that players resort to syncdropping is indicative of a bigger problem.

Oh, I agree there are problems with the system. I used to sync with some buddies in the same room when I started. They where tier 2, I was bottom of tier 5. Rarely did we get a match together, and if we did, it was likely we where on other sides. And when playing with groups, I was always dramatically better or worse than my group mates, and the group que was punishing. I understand the desire, but I feel it's not fair to the solo que droppers to throw in any size groups. The matchmaker is challenged enough by the simple task it currently has, and only barely functions in QP. I feel this change would take away the last "balanced teams" mode we have. I believe that if the stated goal is faster que times, solos should be allowed to volunteer for group que, as I understand that outside of EU/NA primetime/weekends it can be a struggle for GP and QP, especially for high tier players (the ones most likely to volunteer for GP).

[S O L A I S]

Aloha, on 23 June 2018 - 02:38 PM, said:

mmm... I'm not angry, and I'm not arguing. I'm making replies to your replies, in our General Discussion Forum. Paul's MM post does not address the possibility of adding a duo into the QP (and it's Quick Play, not Solo) queue. I would also like to see the GP queue allowing a solo if they opt-in. I think that will ease the wait time by making it possible for a group of 11 to still play and lessen the wait time in some cases.

You think so huh? Well except that it outlines population issues and having to ease restrictions allowing the doors to be swung open on weight classes.

You say that you think these small groups wouldn't have an effect.... you need to read and pay attention to what is being said in Paul's post. There are already issues with tiers and weight then trying to figure out how to pop two people in groups in the mix? Yeah no. It would do the opposite of what you 'think'. That should be pretty clear but it is kind of fun running a complete nonsense thread this far.

Oh and it's Solo queue, quick play. There is also group queue quick play. Glad to be able to help.

[Vesper11]

MischiefSC, on 24 June 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

The logic of your argument keeps coming back to two things -

1. You want to play in a group vs pugs because you think you'll win more, which is more fun for you. This ignores not only the realities of that not being true and how negatively it impacts solo queue.

2. You claim it's mostly about long queue times in group queue, which everyone who isn't also complaining out losing in group queue doesn't see plus that the vast majority of groups in group queue are 2-4mans and that coincidentally your solution to queue times (that would impact everyone not just 2mans and be solved a variety of other ways), the only one you will accept, also just by total coincidence be tied directly to #1.

Your arguments are only logical if we accept that your desire to play in a 2man vs pugs in the hopes you'll win more without having to actually get better at the game is logical. Hence we are not going to see eye to eye. Putting 2mans in QP as a proposed solution to reported long waits is either a bad idea on its face (worse queue for the entire group queue otherwise, myriad of negatives for QP and as such an incredibly selfish solution for a problem that has only a few people in this thread reporting it) or it's flat out disingenuous.

If your complaint is off hours queue times - which, again, as someone who plays a lot both in Pacific and Euro times on weekdays I never see save in FW and other people in this thread have said they don't see but then again they're not trying to justify issue #1 - there's other, more holistic and useful ways to look at low population driving queue issues.

Yet that's not what this thread is about. Just that the real reason is so bad it gets laughed at on its face so mid thread suddenly it's all about the queue times.

Big wall of text about nothing. I'm not saying anything about 2man in QP now, I'm saying that GQ s u c k s. Have fun.

MischiefSC, on 24 June 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

Anyone who doesn't understand WHY this is significant is fooling themselves.

EMP would gain way more for the mythical 'stat padding' from being able to drop a 2man in QP than they do in group queue anyway. The whole argument swings between the blatantly dishonest ('Oh it's, err, just for wait times. No, I don't want to consider any other solution' or the amazing 'Oh, big groups in group queue or any groups in FW are broken and unfair to pugs, but this is magically totes okay' and everyones favorite 'think of the children! Err, new players! Yes, the reason we don't have new players is no 2mans in QP. Please ignore that the biggest influx of players that stayed was when NPE was way worse than now. THIS IS ABOUT THE GOOD OF THE CHILDREN YOU MONSTER!') and insanely selfish ('Yes but I lose in GQ all the time, if I can play in a group vs pugs it'll be more "fun", by which I mean I'll win more while still being bad at the game. If you don't change the game to let me play with an advantage then everyone will quit and MWO will fail completely and I'll hold my breath until I turn blue and you'll RUE THE DAY!')

lol
And you clearly don't understand how average person plays a game with a friend.

Edited by Vesper11, 24 June 2018 - 07:35 PM.

[Belkor]

If you don't want to get seal clubbed in group queues, maybe push for elo based matchmaker even for group queues? The higher quality matches could draw back some players to offset the longer queue times.

[Chortles]

Khobai, on 24 June 2018 - 06:54 PM, said:

right... being concerned about new player experience is totally me thinking about myself.

forcing new players who wanna play with friends into group queue is whats not good for MWO.

2 of my friends quit the game after about 2 weeks because they hated group queue so much. its not a good environment for new players. And they didnt want to solo drop they wanted to play with me or eachother.

again I dont think one 2 man per team in solo queue would be a problem. the matchmaker just needs to actually put players of equal skill on both sides. And use an actual ELO based system instead of an experience bar.



youve missed the point. the point is that people hate group queue so much they will go to extremes like syncdropping just to try and play together outside of group queue.
the very fact that players resort to syncdropping is indicative of a bigger problem.

PGI should just let people play with a friend in solo queue. instead of having to sync drop with 25%-33% success rates. And come up with a matchmaker that actually works to balance things out.

There are new players in the solo queue. What is your opinion of their new player experience? You seem to only care about your friend's experience. I doubt they will enjoy playing against a coordinated duo when they choose solo queue.

Edited by Chortles, 24 June 2018 - 08:08 PM.

[Gwahlur]

S O L A I S, on 24 June 2018 - 07:16 PM, said:

you need to read and pay attention to what is being said in Paul's post.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? I've seen you repeat this throughout the thread. I read the thread you're referring to when it was posted, but I don't see the connection you're making, unless there are any new posts later in the thread that i've missed

[Wil McCullough]

Majority of the complaints are that new players are being dropped against good players and getting smashed. This happens because of a lack of matchmaker in group queue.

This doesn't happen as much in quickplay because it has a matchmaker.

Dropping duos in quickplay will work if the matchmaker does its job.

However the matchmaker can't do its job because pgi is pgi. That's why it got removed from group queue in the first place. It was pointless and just added unnecessary queue time.

For duos to be added to quickplay fairly, the matchmaker must be fixed.

But if the matchmaker is fixed, then there's no need for duos to be added to quickppay because new players wouldn't be facing off against good players there.

See how the "duos in qp" solution doesn't work?

[S O L A I S]

Gwahlur, on 24 June 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? I've seen you repeat this throughout the thread. I read the thread you're referring to when it was posted, but I don't see the connection you're making, unless there are any new posts later in the thread that i've missed

The correlation is the issues match maker currently goes through which include loosening the 3/3/3/3 requirement and as well new hard limits on tiers.

Throwing small groups into that mix with the issues already happening would create an additional set of hurdles and this is exactly the opposite of what Paul said he is trying to accomplish.

Basically the matchmaker has been streamlined and loosened in regards to weight while tightened in regards to tiers. To then have a tier 1 buddy trying to show a tier 5 guy in its current state would not be possible and then you'd have to work around by perhaps averaging the tiers (apparently what group queue used to do when we had more pop).

What's the problem? Well now MM has to work with the tonnage of two guys which basic math predicts this will increase weight times and that average mean now a tier 1 could be in matches with fives (which they want to avoid) or that tier 5 guy is now in matches with a bunch of ones and twos (exactly the opposite of what people wanting to 'teach' rookie friends are after).

If PGI's lead designer is saying his goal is to improve match quality with hard limits while loosing others to improve wait times, what do you think he'd say to adding a bunch more variables to the mix?

Oh and then on top of how would these small groups be balanced out as I touched on above? Do you average tiers (which again I mentioned above and issues with that)? How do you handle weight in this scenario? A bunch of groups dropping in two's all in heavy mechs could cause problems when majority of players online are in heavies. Two players dropping in Death Strikes or Anni's while matchmaker throws five random assaults on the other team is definitely something that would be an issue considering matchmaker currently considers a Zeus to be equal to a Death Strike.

Could go on and on but really people who really want to know why or if Paul would even consider it even from a pure technical point should be using the twitter thing or bugging him on the thread he pinned.

[S O L A I S]

Wil McCullough, on 24 June 2018 - 08:41 PM, said:

Majority of the complaints are that new players are being dropped against good players and getting smashed. This happens because of a lack of matchmaker in group queue.

This doesn't happen as much in quickplay because it has a matchmaker.

Dropping duos in quickplay will work if the matchmaker does its job.

However the matchmaker can't do its job because pgi is pgi. That's why it got removed from group queue in the first place. It was pointless and just added unnecessary queue time.

For duos to be added to quickplay fairly, the matchmaker must be fixed.

But if the matchmaker is fixed, then there's no need for duos to be added to quickppay because new players wouldn't be facing off against good players there.

See how the "duos in qp" solution doesn't work?

Honestly from the matchmaker thread I don't think the real problem is the matchmaker itself. Would put the hard cash on PSR really being the culprit especially with the example of bad player versus good example you used.

[MischiefSC]

Vesper11, on 24 June 2018 - 07:22 PM, said:

Big wall of text about nothing. I'm not saying anything about 2man in QP now, I'm saying that GQ s u c k s. Have fun.

lol
And you clearly don't understand how average person plays a game with a friend.

That you think it's about nothing just reflects why you don't even seem to understand the basis for this discussion.

You're saying GQ sucks for you. No, GQ doesn't suck. Again, lots of 2mans dropping in GQ every day, all the time. 2-4mans are the biggest segment of GQ. I get that doesn't fit in with your narrative but it's reality.

Yes. I do know how the average person plays a game with a friend. The same way we all do. You get together and you play. You're playing to win like everyone else does - that's why you're saying it sucks, because you're losing a lot.

The big difference is that every friend I play with (and it's a lot. Thousands over the last couple of years with FW and all) has also played to win and I've rarely played with anyone who didn't at least put in a minimal effort to get better or understand why they lost in some general way.

You keep mistaking your own opinion for reality, or even majority.

[Cloves]

Problem with averaging the tiers is that it puts a shark in the newbie pool or a newbie in the shark tank. Not what anyone would want in any case. Worse case is you have a one and a smurf that drops as two threes.

[Wil McCullough]

S O L A I S, on 24 June 2018 - 09:33 PM, said:

Honestly from the matchmaker thread I don't think the real problem is the matchmaker itself. Would put the hard cash on PSR really being the culprit especially with the example of bad player versus good example you used.

Agreed. It's not the matchmaker's fault per se but a symptom of a whole lot of other stupid nonsense. Like the weighted psr instead of a zero sum one.

Its also caused by an absolute imbalance between weight classes and tech bases. The same pilot in an is light mech performs way worse than in a clan assault. The matchmaker can't judge that because it only has that borked psr to work with.

[S O L A I S]

Cloves, on 24 June 2018 - 09:35 PM, said:

Problem with averaging the tiers is that it puts a shark in the newbie pool or a newbie in the shark tank. Not what anyone would want in any case. Worse case is you have a one and a smurf that drops as two threes.

Yes exactly it would. That is one of the problems. Just one of them mind you. Now throw weight class in the mix. Take the most popular class, heavies. What now happens when you have a bunch of groups of two's all waiting around in heavies to get a match? Since the it start off looking for 3/3/3/3 for first twenty and considering most folks in queue are in that class already, then what? Pretty much guarantees that first twenty seconds of waiting until the throttle is opened to 5 due to saturation.

Let's not forget this is the population who exploded until groups were given heavy restrictions for playing the mode in a group. Again two guys in Anni's or Death Strikes while the other team gets a bunch of meme Zues'....

[Gwahlur]

S O L A I S, on 24 June 2018 - 09:30 PM, said:

Oh and then on top of how would these small groups be balanced out as I touched on above? Do you average tiers (which again I mentioned above and issues with that)? How do you handle weight in this scenario?

In my opinion only new players should be allowed to 2man in qp, so tier 5's, maybe 4 as well. So they would be placed in their natural tier bracket.
For weight, well, that could maybe be tricky, but they would just have to wait untill a slot for their chosen weights was available.

Honestly, queue times could be... not great for these 2mans, but that's the price they would pay for getting to not be constantly stomped in group queue and not having to deal with the hassle of trying to syncdrop.

I would not agree with established players being able to 2man in qp, once you know the game you would move on to group queue. I agree with people saying everyone should have to try to get better at the game and not just take the easiest way out.

Edited by Gwahlur, 24 June 2018 - 09:56 PM.

[Cloves]

S O L A I S, on 24 June 2018 - 09:47 PM, said:

Yes exactly it would. That is one of the problems. Just one of them mind you. Now throw weight class in the mix. Take the most popular class, heavies. What now happens when you have a bunch of groups of two's all waiting around in heavies to get a match? Since the it start off looking for 3/3/3/3 for first twenty and considering most folks in queue are in that class already, then what? Pretty much guarantees that first twenty seconds of waiting until the throttle is opened to 5 due to saturation.

Let's not forget this is the population who exploded until groups were given heavy restrictions for playing the mode in a group. Again two guys in Anni's or Death Strikes while the other team gets a bunch of meme Zues'....

I am all about them getting rid of tonnage limits in QP. As long as it's balanced across teams, it should be the wild west. 12 assaults vs 12 assaults is fine with me. There will never be weight viability balance till they stop artificially throttling the population. In the current meta, if you reach a certain level of play, it's assaults over everything, barely kept in check with lights that get paid 1/2 what the assaults do. I feel the game would be improved if every weight was an equally valid choice, and I feel it's hard to justify most mediums these days, they are just too far behind the curve.

[Cloves]

Gwahlur, on 24 June 2018 - 09:55 PM, said:

In my opinion only new players should be allowed to 2man in qp, so tier 5's, maybe 4 as well. So they would be placed in their natural tier bracket.
For weight, well, that could maybe be tricky, but they would just have to wait untill a slot for their chosen weights was available.

Honestly, queue times could be... not great for these 2mans, but that's the price they would pay for getting to not be constantly stomped in group queue and not having to deal with the hassle of trying to syncdrop.

I would not agree with established players being able to 2man in qp, once you know the game you would move on to group queue. I agree with people saying everyone should have to try to get better at the game and not just take the easiest way out.

if they had a way of making sure none of the tier fives where smurfs, I might entertain this, even though you are ruining the NPE for the other 22 guys, but we don't. I also have a really hard time imagining two authentic tier five players playing together. If you are bringing a friend into this game, you are no longer tier five, and you probably created a smurf account just to evade this restriction.

[S O L A I S]

Gwahlur, on 24 June 2018 - 09:55 PM, said:

In my opinion only new players should be allowed to 2man in qp, so tier 5's, maybe 4 as well. So they would be placed in their natural tier bracket.
For weight, well, that could maybe be tricky, but they would just have to wait untill a slot for their chosen weights was available.

Honestly, queue times could be... not great for these 2mans, but that's the price they would pay for getting to not be constantly stomped in group queue and not having to deal with the hassle of trying to syncdrop.

I would not agree with established players being able to 2man in qp, once you know the game you would move on to group queue. I agree with people saying everyone should have to try to get better at the game and not just take the easiest way out.

Then I drop in my lowest tier account (this one) and get in there with my buddy to show him the way. Or I start a new one and use trials. Look up I AM TUUL which was original name for this account on the Jarl's List and consider that a. I am not that good. b. Season 9, 15, and 17 stats where accomplished primarily running the trial Phoenix Hawk.

The idea only new players should be able to drop together is a tough one. Outside of comradery there would be very little point and too easily gamed.

Also the wait time increases would not only affect those in those groups, it would affect everybody unless you are suggesting that matchmaker explicitly place low priority on these groups which again makes you wonder why would you do this and would it be something PGI would consider.

After that then consider how hard a sell your idea of established players being excluded from dropping together... There are tons of 'tier 1's' who already think group queue is unfair and not fun because they get rolled. Some of those folks are on here pushing to be allowed to drop with their other 'tier 1' friends.