864 replies to this topic

[Brain Cancer]

a le Roi, on 14 June 2018 - 06:33 AM, said:

So, in short, enabling those 2-4 person groups to play in the same queue as solo players would
1) Shorten wait times for all
2) Make quick play matches no less balanced
3) Increase the game's attractiveness, which would eventually help with the player base

Please consider making that change, for your sake and for the sake of all of us non-unit players.

You really, really do not want groups in solo queue, especially four-mans.

The inevitable result is the abuse of actual solo players, especially when suddenly, a third of your opponent's group happens to be good players that got tired of carrying and decided to start seal clubbing instead.

Anastasius Foht, on 14 June 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

Instead, my proposal to DIVIDE "SoloQ Rating" and "Group Rating", top stats guys play like 40 games for season in 12 mens groups, get 3-4 KDA and 2-3 W/L, i see no point to mix this guys with solo only ones.

Group queue stats should never have been part of solo queue stats from day 1. They're worlds apart in terms of gameplay.

[Besh]

Eisenhorne, on 14 June 2018 - 10:34 AM, said:

No, see, that's a common misconception in the Atlas' role. It's job is to be a big threatening thing, and to draw fire. Ideally the Atlas is "cowering" behind cover, moving out of cover, firing off a few (hopefully very damaging) alpha strikes, and encouraging the enemy to focus on trying to kill him. He takes a few hits, backs into cover, and cools down. An Atlas has 150 front CT armor, and what, 60 front CT health? 210 total damage required to kill him. Unless the enemy team is bad, if he runs at a full enemy "siege" and tries to break it, 4 average laservomit salvos to the CT WILL KILL HIM. He will do nothing except die. Tank mechs do not exist in MWO.

The Atlas needs the heavier armor because he pokes in and out of cover slower than a heavy, because he weighs more and carries more weapons. Consider what an Atlas in cover, poking out and delivering alpha strikes, does for a team then. It provides a constant threat, so the enemy cannot blindly rush in and attack you, because there's a freaking Atlas there. It secures a flank. The enemy must always be paying attention to the cover the Atlas is behind as well, because if they ignore it, they're going to be eating some MRM/Gauss/AC salvos, which HURT. They are going to be wasting fire on arm / st shots as well, because it's much easier to shield your CT in an Atlas while you're moving lateral in relation to the enemy instead of right at it.

So yea, the Atlas and other assault mechs are supposed to be on the very front line, NEXT TO the enemy, causing a constant threat, causing them to pay constant attention to it. "Sacrificing" that for a small momentary advantage, that a non-coordinated team will not take advantage of anyway, is a very bad idea.

I am not really going to argue with you, but let me ask: Did you just say "Atlas" and "poke" in the same sentence ?
Really ?

[Haipyng]

Brain Cancer, on 14 June 2018 - 12:11 PM, said:

You really, really do not want groups in solo queue, especially four-mans.

The inevitable result is the abuse of actual solo players, especially when suddenly, a third of your opponent's group happens to be good players that got tired of carrying and decided to start seal clubbing instead.

I think 4 mans would be a bad idea, but smaller groups should be fine. No more than one group on either team.

GP is pretty toxic to casual 2-3 man groups during prime time that get piled together to face larger groups. These are the people that bring friends in to play with and you hope buy into the game. Trouble is if their exposure is being clubbed repeatedly in GP when playing with a few friends, they are pretty unlikely to come back and play QP. It's things like this that have contributed to a lower population numbers and why we can't have nice things like map and game mode selection.

We have just ignored the issue of small groups and swept it away contributing to our own problems.

[Besh]

Haipyng, on 14 June 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

I think 4 mans would be a bad idea, but smaller groups should be fine. No more than one group on either team.

GP is pretty toxic to casual 2-3 man groups during prime time that get piled together to face larger groups. These are the people that bring friends in to play with and you hope buy into the game. Trouble is if their exposure is being clubbed repeatedly in GP when playing with a few friends, they are pretty unlikely to come back and play QP. It's things like this that have contributed to a lower population numbers and why we can't have nice things like map and game mode selection.

We have just ignored the issue of small groups and swept it away contributing to our own problems.

Really, not wanting to talk down on you, but this has all been discussed time and again, and again, and again, and then again over the Years .

The most important thing to keep in mind really is : It once was like that . Premade Groups of 4 were able to drop into a Match against 8 randomly assorted Players . I did not go very well . That is why Qs got split into Solo and Group .

Edited by Besh, 14 June 2018 - 12:31 PM.

[Eisenhorne]

Besh, on 14 June 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

I am not really going to argue with you, but let me ask: Did you just say "Atlas" and "poke" in the same sentence ?
Really ?

I do it in Annihilators or Fafnirs all the time, works great. And yea, it's more of a "lumber" than "poke", and ideally you only expose yourself to 1-2 enemies at a time while doing this.

[Haipyng]

Besh, on 14 June 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

Really, not wanting to talk down on you, but this has all been discussed time and again, and again, and again, and then again over the Years .

The most important thing to keep in mind really is : It once was like that . Premade Groups of 4 were able to drop into a Match against 8 randomly assorted Players . I did not go very well . That is why Qs got split into Solo and Group .

I know. I have been there for many of the discussions over the years. I am sure I will get discouraged with the argument and give it up again.

The ratio for those matches isn't the same as what is being asked for here. It would be a maximum of one 2-3 players group per team. Heck I'd settle for two man only to start.

I do remember when we had 4 man groups in 12v12 QP and a competitive group of 4 definitely influenced matches, but rarely into the stomps everyone imagines. They removed 4 man groups and we still had terrible matches due to ELO and the old MM system. The problem is they never addressed the issues for casual small 2-3 man groups after that. They just got tossed into GP and forgotten about.

The old arguments of "git gud" and "join a competitive group" don't fit this demographic of player that is neither super competitive or interesting in drilling for membership in a large group and continuing to think that way just contributes to making our population dwindle away. (shrug)

[Xmith]

I'm on the fence on this subject. I believe the main reason groups were so strong in QP is because they were on coms. Voip was not active back then. Now that voip is active, a two person team may not have much advantage if any in todays game.

However, I'm not at all cool with having two teams within supposedly one team. A two person group most likely will not communicate to the rest of the team. They will be too busy doing their own thing.

Edited by Xmith, 14 June 2018 - 01:28 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Always the same. "Me and my couple of friends are the largest group size that should be allowed in solo queue". Whatever size that happens to be.

Right up until their 3man of bad drops against a 3man of goods and the match is a 12-0 stomp in 4 no it's and nobody on their team breaks 100 damage.

Then it's on to the next cry for nerfing making smart choices in the mechlab.

Group queue has been nerfed so hard for mid to large groups that most don't play. In fact it was a factor in a lot of people quitting MWO entirely because if you had more than 5 people who were willing to put up with you then you all had to take mediums to play together.

This was done so that the casual +2 friends crowd could do better in group queue.

The result was the casuals taking 3 bad lights or mediums, shorting their team needed tonnage and still being bad at the game. We ****** a ton of players over god know how many times trying to making the game more friendly to bads and casuals and you know what?

IT HAS NEVER AND WILL NEVER WORK.

Get better at the game. Quit playing like an idiot. If you want to play in a group with friends that's great. There's a variety of places to do that. However everyone else gets to do that too - so if they play together and make smart choices they will destroy people who play together and make bad choices. This isn't a game design flaw.

All we really ever see is requests for, essentially, "I want to group up with my friends and play against solo pugs who are all as bad as we are, but we get to group up. Other people can group up but they have to be as bad or worse than us".

No. **** that. Stop it. Quit trying to get the game changed under the delusion that something will happen to let you play poorly, not i.prove and still win more. If someone is new play private lobbies or help them in group queue. Specifically because of all the stupid changes to group queue far, far fewer people play there so your odds of getting smashed by a good team are HIGHER. That's b3cause we keep trying to make it "casual friendly" which just results in casuals still be casual and losing while it's less friendly to everyone who is willing and able to learn and improve.

The only solution is MW5. You can dial the bots down to "shoots self in face" and coop with terribads and take bad mechs and play poorly and pretend that you're not bad and "have fun".

MWO is multiplayer. Everyone gets the same rules, or should. Quit trying to get the rules bent to give yourself an advantage you have not earned.

Haipyng, on 14 June 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

I know. I have been there for many of the discussions over the years. I am sure I will get discouraged with the argument and give it up again.

The ratio for those matches isn't the same as what is being asked for here. It would be a maximum of one 2-3 players group per team. Heck I'd settle for two man only to start.

I do remember when we had 4 man groups in 12v12 QP and a competitive group of 4 definitely influenced matches, but rarely into the stomps everyone imagines. They removed 4 man groups and we still had terrible matches due to ELO and the old MM system. The problem is they never addressed the issues for casual small 2-3 man groups after that. They just got tossed into GP and forgotten about.

The old arguments of "git gud" and "join a competitive group" don't fit this demographic of player that is neither super competitive or interesting in drilling for membership in a large group and continuing to think that way just contributes to making our population dwindle away. (shrug)

Absolutely wrong. Flat out wrong. I played in a group of 4 and we were far from "pro" and we won an average of 19 out of 20 matches. The top tier players had winning streaks over 100 matches long.

It was clown shoes pants on head broken. That's why PGI made split queues.

[fat4eyes]

I wouldn't mind groups of 2 in QP, especially if the MM tries to balance the groups between the two teams. Groups of 3-4 are more iffy. Maybe allow them only up to tier 3. Once you get to tier 2/1 a 4-man group of top 1% players is way too unbalancing.

[Cloves]

fat4eyes, on 14 June 2018 - 01:51 PM, said:

I wouldn't mind groups of 2 in QP, especially if the MM tries to balance the groups between the two teams. Groups of 3-4 are more iffy. Maybe allow them only up to tier 3. Once you get to tier 2/1 a 4-man group of top 1% players is way too unbalancing.

So you want to destroy the lower tiers with 4 man groups of smurf accounts? Bravo.

[Besh]

MischiefSC, on 14 June 2018 - 01:36 PM, said:

Always the same. "Me and my couple of friends are the largest group size that should be allowed in solo queue". Whatever size that happens to be.

Right up until their 3man of bad drops against a 3man of goods and the match is a 12-0 stomp in 4 no it's and nobody on their team breaks 100 damage.

Then it's on to the next cry for nerfing making smart choices in the mechlab.

Group queue has been nerfed so hard for mid to large groups that most don't play. In fact it was a factor in a lot of people quitting MWO entirely because if you had more than 5 people who were willing to put up with you then you all had to take mediums to play together.

This was done so that the casual +2 friends crowd could do better in group queue.

The result was the casuals taking 3 bad lights or mediums, shorting their team needed tonnage and still being bad at the game. We ****** a ton of players over god know how many times trying to making the game more friendly to bads and casuals and you know what?

IT HAS NEVER AND WILL NEVER WORK.

Get better at the game. Quit playing like an idiot. If you want to play in a group with friends that's great. There's a variety of places to do that. However everyone else gets to do that too - so if they play together and make smart choices they will destroy people who play together and make bad choices. This isn't a game design flaw.

All we really ever see is requests for, essentially, "I want to group up with my friends and play against solo pugs who are all as bad as we are, but we get to group up. Other people can group up but they have to be as bad or worse than us".

No. **** that. Stop it. Quit trying to get the game changed under the delusion that something will happen to let you play poorly, not i.prove and still win more. If someone is new play private lobbies or help them in group queue. Specifically because of all the stupid changes to group queue far, far fewer people play there so your odds of getting smashed by a good team are HIGHER. That's b3cause we keep trying to make it "casual friendly" which just results in casuals still be casual and losing while it's less friendly to everyone who is willing and able to learn and improve.

The only solution is MW5. You can dial the bots down to "shoots self in face" and coop with terribads and take bad mechs and play poorly and pretend that you're not bad and "have fun".

MWO is multiplayer. Everyone gets the same rules, or should. Quit trying to get the rules bent to give yourself an advantage you have not earned.

Haipyng, on 14 June 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

I know. I have been there for many of the discussions over the years. I am sure I will get discouraged with the argument and give it up again.

The ratio for those matches isn't the same as what is being asked for here. It would be a maximum of one 2-3 players group per team. Heck I'd settle for two man only to start.

I do remember when we had 4 man groups in 12v12 QP and a competitive group of 4 definitely influenced matches, but rarely into the stomps everyone imagines. They removed 4 man groups and we still had terrible matches due to ELO and the old MM system. The problem is they never addressed the issues for casual small 2-3 man groups after that. They just got tossed into GP and forgotten about.

The old arguments of "git gud" and "join a competitive group" don't fit this demographic of player that is neither super competitive or interesting in drilling for membership in a large group and continuing to think that way just contributes to making our population dwindle away. (shrug)

Absolutely wrong. Flat out wrong. I played in a group of 4 and we were far from "pro" and we won an average of 19 out of 20 matches. The top tier players had winning streaks over 100 matches long.

It was clown shoes pants on head broken. That's why PGI made split queues.

^This . Can't be said any better . All of it .

Edited by Besh, 14 June 2018 - 02:10 PM.

[Bishop Six]

Op are you member of an unit and if yes how many members has this unit if i may ask?

Edited by Bishop Six, 14 June 2018 - 02:16 PM.

[Blindbeard the Pirate]

LordBraxton, on 14 June 2018 - 08:31 AM, said:

OP is spot on, I cant get anyone into MWO because to play with me they have to jump into tier 1 group madness

I've got one friend who only plays well past prime time where there's only typically one very large group stomping the few smaller ones, and 10-45 minute queues. I've got two friends who were interested in the game, but can't function when dragged into teams that are primarily tier 1, both of which gave up because of the lengthy queues. I have several who have quit due to the queues and massive shift in game balance toward enormous alpha boats, because they couldn't have a game last more than a minute or two despite waiting for half an hour.

Faction play is basically a corpse most of the time unless you join a unit specifically for that, solaris is largely inactive, and don't get me started on scouting because even the fundamentals of scouting barely apply to the rest of the game unless you somehow find yourself in an isolated brawl (which if you did, would likely be your light or medium against an assault, not another light or medium). Where are my options to bring more players to the game and let them have an experience which is remotely enjoyable? How am I going to teach them anything without making a separate tier 5 account and ruining a bunch of newer player's days?

I'd be entirely down for groups of two at most going into solo or small group QP. Yeah, sure, it would effect balance if both people are in voice. If we had accurate PSR balancing based on normalized match score on a per weight class basis, you would find that it likely wouldn't matter having a duo or two in there, as long as the match maker prioritized putting small groups on opposite teams so it wasn't just one side like that. It's not like you're both suddenly drop callers, and it's mostly going to punish people who are already making poor choices anyway.

[Besh]

Ulriya Sykora, on 14 June 2018 - 02:20 PM, said:

I've got one friend who only plays well past prime time where there's only typically one very large group stomping the few smaller ones, and 10-45 minute queues. I've got two friends who were interested in the game, but can't function when dragged into teams that are primarily tier 1, both of which gave up because of the lengthy queues. I have several who have quit due to the queues and massive shift in game balance toward enormous alpha boats, because they couldn't have a game last more than a minute or two despite waiting for half an hour.

Faction play is basically a corpse most of the time unless you join a unit specifically for that, solaris is largely inactive, and don't get me started on scouting because even the fundamentals of scouting barely apply to the rest of the game unless you somehow find yourself in an isolated brawl (which if you did, would likely be your light or medium against an assault, not another light or medium). Where are my options to bring more players to the game and let them have an experience which is remotely enjoyable? How am I going to teach them anything without making a separate tier 5 account and ruining a bunch of newer player's days?

I'd be entirely down for groups of two at most going into solo or small group QP. Yeah, sure, it would effect balance if both people are in voice. If we had accurate PSR balancing based on normalized match score on a per weight class basis, you would find that it likely wouldn't matter having a duo or two in there, as long as the match maker prioritized putting small groups on opposite teams so it wasn't just one side like that. It's not like you're both suddenly drop callers, and it's mostly going to punish people who are already making poor choices anyway.

In GroupQ, MM does not balance by Tiers .

Also, read MIschief's post above . The Game has bled a LOT of Players over the Years because of "trying to cater to Casuals" .

As for new Players in general: it is brutally hard . It is totally different from any other Shooter . It can not be picked up within a few Games . Thats just how it is - for most people at least. People are willing to stick thorugh that, or not . You can not reasonably expect for the Game to be changed so the people who hop on for a Game or 2 on 3 nights a month have it easier...they won't, ever, get any good at this Game if they do not devote significant time and effort into it .

Edited by Besh, 14 June 2018 - 02:36 PM.

[Mystere]

a le Roi, on 14 June 2018 - 06:33 AM, said:

Please Open Solo Group Queue To Small Groups Solos

FTFY.

It's about time it was.

[Blindbeard the Pirate]

Besh, on 14 June 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

In GroupQ, MM does not balance by Tiers .

Also, read MIschief's post above . The Game has bled a LOT of Players over the Years because of "trying to cater to Casuals" .

As for new Players in general: it is brutally hard . It is totally different from any other Shooter . It can not be picked up within a few Games . Thats just how it is - for most people at least. People are willing to stick thorugh that, or not .

It doesn't, but that doesn't change the fact that the majority of groups and units aren't taking whole crapload of new players into their 8 person group at 0345. After a while, you tend to know the majority of the people queueing around the time you are. Throw their names at jarl's list or even just use the leaderboard search. It's a lot of tier 1 groups, and a lot of small 2-3 person casual lances with some serious disparity in skill level.

[Mystere]

It's time for MWO to have dynamic team sizes.

Let that triple 4-man team face 36 battle-hardened solo players.

[Besh]

Ulriya Sykora, on 14 June 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

It doesn't, but that doesn't change the fact that the majority of groups and units aren't taking whole crapload of new players into their 8 person group at 0345. After a while, you tend to know the majority of the people queueing around the time you are. Throw their names at jarl's list or even just use the leaderboard search. It's a lot of tier 1 groups, and a lot of small 2-3 person casual lances with some serious disparity in skill level.

T1 does not a good Player make . 2-3 Player Groups are not a Lance . Many Units/PlayerGroups are very welcoming to new Players, taking them along for the ride, offering and giving loads of advice as well as Training . Quite many GroupQ Games, you can see Groups of 2-4 people getting anywhere between 5-9 kills, essentially making the difference .

Your point ?

Mystere, on 14 June 2018 - 02:47 PM, said:

It's time for MWO to have dynamic team sizes.

Let that triple 4-man team face 36 battle-hardened solo players.

I am down....on the solo side .

Edited by Besh, 14 June 2018 - 02:54 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

2-man only, using highest Tier and not average - can opt in for non-group queue but can not opt out of group queue. Grouped players can not drop into another match til the current one is finished (heavily discourage suicides to get out of group drop). ONLY ONE 2-man per team. and different weight class.

But will say no because that requires coding.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 14 June 2018 - 03:06 PM.

[Blindbeard the Pirate]

Besh, on 14 June 2018 - 02:49 PM, said:

T1 does not a good Player make . 2-3 Player Groups are not a Lance . Quite many GroupQ Games, you can see Groups of 2-4 people getting anywhere between 5-9 kills, essentially making the difference . Your point ?

It actually seems to me that you're the one who doesn't have much of a point here. I've actively advocated specifically for people to look them up. Have I said that tier one players are all amazing? No. But they do at least have a baseline of experience greater than fifteen minutes in the academy. For example, if your forum account is the one you actually use to play, you're basically eating your foot right now. I'm not interested in arguing. If we factor the average match score being somewhere around 220, where do you sit? Are you in tier 1? Do you deserve to be in tier 1?

I'm not asking for four person lances in a small group queue, nor am I the OP. During my most active seasons, I played against groups of four very frequently headed by sustained eye contact and tier, where competitive mech choices literally swung matches. I've also had my **** wrecked by coordinated large groups from EMP and 228. My favourite players to meet up with in solo queue were always ones like panzermagier and dashie who would literally give **** to people until they moved their asses. It's people like those who influence quick play the most.

I'm just saying that if the game had a more accessible queue system, and more reliably weighted match making, it would be a lot funner for all of us. We would have better games, solo, groups of two, or not. And I'd ALSO have a whole lot more friends interested in the only active game one of my favourite franchises has to offer.