657 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Conner Ward, on 28 June 2018 - 12:06 PM, said:

Seriously though, if we want this to be more like a sim, then the current convergence would be realistic, since Mech engineers and techs would design and adjust and focus the weapons to destroy the enemy as quickly as possible. Or do people just want to assume that weapons in the BATTLETECH universe are just either ineptly designed, or purposefully designed to give your enemy a better chance to kill you?

There is just one problem: moving a 1 or 10-ton weapon 30 degrees in 0.01 seconds flat, especially when initially at rest or, worse, moving in the opposite direction just doesn't look right.

[Tarl Cabot]

Noguchi-san, on 28 June 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

It is NOT about raising TTK - in no WAY!

It is all about bringing IS closer to CLAN with all their overpowered Armor and STRUCTURE Quirks.

snip

Hey, new player. IS mechs did not have armor and structure quirks galore UNTIL the Clans showed up...... And for PGI is was easier to Add quirks / CHANGE quirks / Remove quirks than to make actual changes to the components. And for a few IS mechs, quirks across the board were insane for a bit til PGI threw their darts at the board and slaughtered them, it was not a surgical strike. Several Clan mechs have structure and armor quirks now, minor ones but they are still there, for the same reason most IS mechs have quirks and that is do bad or vulnerable hitboxes.

Also be aware for many mechs, PGI did a rescaling but the rescaling was done within the weight class instead of evenly across the board. A 100-ton Atlas has more than 5x greater volume than the 20-ton locust...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 28 June 2018 - 04:47 PM.

[SaltiestRaccoon]

A Headless Chicken, on 27 June 2018 - 09:57 PM, said:

I don't need to worry about movement if i pin you down with a red CT 600m away. I can play the Deathstrike or Gaussvomit HBR and hold a single dominant position for an entire game, only peeking out for potshots against targets. Face it - the player base is just this bad. If you want to imply people will peek against that to move up closer, I'm here to tell you it's not working. Now you even nerf aim for a playerbase of people who can't really aim too.

Even better, you force them to move at combat speed which contradicts saying mobility means survivability! If it comes to this, why not simply resync the engines because mobility = survivability? Not to mention most 'Mechs are not fast enough to juke shots to begin with.

So basically, we kill more builds and pretend the game is fine, right?

Go back, and read again. Just like in ARMA, Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon or the SWAT series, rapid changes in aim point hurt your accuracy, so yes, if you're pinned down behind a very small piece of cover, then it's a problem (kind of like in real life...) If you didn't make a bad decision and try to use that cover, you would have cover that you could emerge from in different locations, forcing a high-alpha sniper to change their aim point to fire at your new location, meaning spread damage. To provide effective overwatch against a wide area you would need multiple mechs to do so. If you're suggesting that you can hold a single position all game, you are also wrong, if you are darting in and out of your piece of cover for constant pot shots, then you will be at a disadvantage to someone expecting you to peek out in the same spot, as you will have just moved out of cover and waiting for your reticle to close and they will already be on target... So actually the style of play you suggest that reticle bloom will buff... it actually nerfs. Reticle bloom is realistic and encourages deliberate, aggressive play.

Because changing aim point would hurt accuracy, it encourages a style of aiming where you put a predictive lead on your target's path, wait for your reticle to tighten up, and fire at the appropriate time... so while juking doesn't mean much now, it would then, because an unpredictable path would spoil your enemy's lead and force them to sacrifice weapon accuracy.

But hey, all those games I mentioned are known for their super shallow learning curve and are probably made for baddies, right?

It's cool if you disagree, but at least show me the respect of reading the damn post and thinking about it before you respond.

Edited by SaltiestRaccoon, 28 June 2018 - 05:15 PM.

[Noguchi-san]

Tarl Cabot, on 28 June 2018 - 04:45 PM, said:

Hey, new player. IS mechs did not have armor and structure quirks galore UNTIL the Clans showed up...... And for PGI is was easier to Add quirks / CHANGE quirks / Remove quirks than to make actual changes to the components. And for a few IS mechs, quirks across the board were insane for a bit til PGI threw their darts at the board and slaughtered them, it was not a surgical strike. Several Clan mechs have structure and armor quirks now, minor ones but they are still there, for the same reason most IS mechs have quirks and that is do bad or vulnerable hitboxes.

Also be aware for many mechs, PGI did a rescaling but the rescaling was done within the weight class instead of evenly across the board. A 100-ton Atlas has more than 5x greater volume than the 20-ton locust...

And still PGI wants to nerf the Clan Laser Vom but not the structure and armor Quirks at the same time? Is not fair at all!

Rescale - i was not there but a firestarter should not be as tall as it is right now - so the grasshopper - but who am i to call?
Just wanted to bring to notion that for me as a new pilot - it is hard to play FP because a good IS premade group can beat a clan premade all the time!

[Conner Ward]

Mystere, on 28 June 2018 - 04:35 PM, said:

There is just one problem: moving a 1 or 10-ton weapon 30 degrees in 0.01 seconds flat, especially when initially at rest or, worse, moving in the opposite direction just doesn't look right.

The massive (I assume electrical) servos and myomer bundles, which are hundreds of years ahead of our current technology and powered by a Fusion reactor (nearly limitless electrical output) should be able to move a 1 to 10 ton weapon very quickly. Modern battle tanks move their main guns pretty damned fast.

Noguchi-san, on 28 June 2018 - 05:06 PM, said:

And still PGI wants to nerf the Clan Laser Vom but not the structure and armor Quirks at the same time? Is not fair at all!

Rescale - i was not there but a firestarter should not be as tall as it is right now - so the grasshopper - but who am i to call?
Just wanted to bring to notion that for me as a new pilot - it is hard to play FP because a good IS premade group can beat a clan premade all the time!

The BATTLETECH Technical Readouts give height information for each Mech, so the size of the Mechs should not be up for interpretation.

[Noguchi-san]

Conner Ward, on 28 June 2018 - 05:27 PM, said:

The massive (I assume electrical) servos and myomer bundles, which are hundreds of years ahead of our current technology and powered by a Fusion reactor (nearly limitless electrical output) should be able to move a 1 to 10 ton weapon very quickly. Modern battle tanks move their main guns pretty damned fast.



The BATTLETECH Technical Readouts give height information for each Mech, so the size of the Mechs should not be up for interpretation.

PGI did the rescale not out of any "technical readout" but out of volume. Sounds totally fair and comprehensive? NOT !!!



So they nerfed things out of "thin air" instead of doing a good research!

Did anyone ever saw any PGI Staff playing FP? Anyone?
How do they try to do the balance without playing their Game at all?

There is a good solution out there!

But PGI is not listening to the community like they say they would do.



This is the last Hope - if they also suck at this then i can "promise" ( MW5 will badly fail ).

All because I can see the future!

Edited by Noguchi-san, 28 June 2018 - 05:38 PM.

[SaltiestRaccoon]

Bush Hopper, on 28 June 2018 - 03:21 AM, said:

I think that even those "low" (how you call that) alphas of 54-62 alphas are way too high. If a medium gets wrong footed it already gets internal.

Those alphas are simply too high. A "staggered" alphas of 30 points would still be deadly but at least no one gets one shotted and heavies and assaults could still have more firepower than lower weight classes simply because they can group more of those alphas in a row.

There was a very good post earlier that had a linked video that explained TTK quite comprehensively. The issue with a TTK like the one you suggest is that volume of fire trumps any individual player skill (honestly it already kind of does) A good player will be severely disadvantaged against several mediocre players because it takes so long to take anyone out of the fight.

Bush Hopper, on 28 June 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

The point is: lasers are actually noob tubes because they are hitscan weapons. Yet, at the same time they are easily the most powerful weapons which enable huge alphas. Something's wrong if you ask me.

I can take my Hunchie IIC with a 60-70 alpha (depending on build) and flank someone. If he doesn't twist at once, it can already be internal - or in case of a med or light they can blow up. It is not that hard to achieve, especially when you are used to light mechs and know how you can sneak up on someone.

Call of Dutywarrior: Online

Besides, I wonder how people can play those utterly dull and boring laser vomit mechs again and again.

What Mechwarrior games have you played before? All have had lower TTK than MWO (usually about half of MWO's TTK.) Your argument of the game being like a twitch shooter and not a mechwarrior game is completely irrelevant and only demonstrates either your inexperience with the series or intellectual dishonesty.

You claim that lasers are noob weapons, without actually realizing that you need to hold over the target, moreover the same location on the target to get efficient damage with them, which is as difficult as putting a lead on something with an absurdly slow AC round. Moreover it requires more face-time to do that damage.

But you'll probably have your way eventually. PGI tends to listen to people who don't know what they're talking about.

Edited by SaltiestRaccoon, 28 June 2018 - 05:46 PM.

[Noguchi-san]

SaltiestRaccoon, on 28 June 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

There was a very good post earlier that had a linked video that explained TTK quite comprehensively. The issue with a TTK like the one you suggest is that volume of fire trumps any individual player skill (honestly it already kind of does) A good player will be severely disadvantaged against several mediocre players because it takes so long to take anyone out of the fight.

As long as dual heavy gauss is still an issue - they will not be a long ttk. Get close to the enemy ( your team will provide for that ) and oneshot your target ( dual heavy gauss is meant for that )!

You ever played FP?

You got objectives - if you let your enemy get into your Base - you have lost ( killing Clan Laser by reducing the damage ( you will not only nerf the 3 mechs which can handle that high alpha but every clan mech which can bring some lasers ( also lights and mediums ) then you are realy ******* e d up. )

Again: Did anyone ever saw any PGI Staff playing FP? Anyone?

3 Month and not one Game where one of the PGI Staff was around!
And i got Friends - People who play this Game since the closed BETA - NO PGI STAFF around.
I heard of "one" evening where Chris was playing FP with some crazy german Dudes but that was all!

Also i heard of that PGI once participated in the MRBC League - loosing all but one game against also a german Unit ( name and shame - so i will not call out that one unit but the SpaceCaptain will tell you the Story - if you ask "politly")

Balance was somehow good the last month i also heard - as long as you call out any balance ( premade vs premade ).

Keep that in Mind and now once again - why do we need any Nerf at all?

Edited by Noguchi-san, 28 June 2018 - 05:54 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Noguchi-san, on 28 June 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

Chris - you are not in any Position to call out any balance or unbalance - simply because you are not into the game at all!

um just so you know, Chris plays MWO allot, some his PGI account, but much more so on his Alt,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 28 June 2018 - 05:54 PM.

[Tesunie]

I'll get to the rest of the people who responded to my posts... in due time. But this one will be easy to go with...

McGoat, on 28 June 2018 - 03:47 AM, said:

This says everything I need to see from this poster.

Rumor has it HBS released a pretty cool game that is right up your alley.

WOW! So helpful. I never saw it from that perspective before. Thanks for your feedba...

...

Oh. Sorry. I confused you with someone who was actually providing feedback and constructive advise on a subject.


To be more serious;
So, what you just said there is to ignore all that is Battletech.

Well then, I've got a game idea just for you. How about I make a new Halo game. It's going to have all the Halo characters in it. It's going to use swords, spears and metal shields. The only ranged weapon available will be throwing stars. All the aliens in the game will carry fish, that will shoot out minnows that swim in the air and explode.

Wait. What do you mean that isn't Halo? It says it right in the title that it's a Halo game. Books? Previous game titles? No. No one is interested in that junk.


The above situation is what you basically are trying to say here. If we ignore all the previous Battletech history (novels, TT and even other MW games), then would it still be Battletech? Or should we call it "some random robot game shooter extreme" instead?

Your whole post just doesn't even make any sense here.

I mean, I don't mind changes from lore for better game play and balance. But at the same time, we really should look at and reference to lore when possible, at least for possible inspiration and idea. Even if it doesn't pan out, it's good for a Battletech game to reference to all other things Battletech.

[Y E O N N E]

Agent of Change, on 28 June 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

I just wanted to quote this all for emphasis. The "We should keep it the same for your own good spuds. Trust me." set is getting really tiresome, and is transparently protectionist, disingenuous, and condescending. The above is a great explanation of why even though a longer TTK and a more even weapon set favors the most skilled in the short term it's still better for the game in the long run. The only reason you wouldn't be in favor of this is if you fear you aren't actually at the top of the food chain.

Not especially. Mischief got it right, it does amplify the effect of having skill. At the same time, he is also complicit in a lie of omission: the same thing that amplifies the effect of having skill also dulls the requirements for being considered "skilled."

The fact is, a longer TTK empowers DPS play-styles and disempowers hit-and-fade play-styles. The result is less depth as everybody shifts to DPS. Right now, the DPS builds are already the strongest builds unless you have very long sight-lines where range attenuation makes DPS untenable. That you saw poke dominate in MWOWC was a function of the fact that the favored maps all had...very long sight-lines.

[SaltiestRaccoon]

Noguchi-san, on 28 June 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

As long as dual heavy gauss is still an issue - they will not be a long ttk. Get close to the enemy ( your team will provide for that ) and oneshot your target ( dual heavy gauss is meant for that )!

You ever played FP?

You got objectives - if you let your enemy get into your Base - you have lost ( killing Clan Laser by reducing the damage ( you will not only nerf the 3 mechs which can handle that high alpha but every clan mech which can bring some lasers ( also lights and mediums ) then you are realy ******* e d up. )

Again: Did anyone ever saw any PGI Staff playing FP? Anyone?

3 Month and not one Game where one of the PGI Staff was around!
And i got Friends - People who play this Game since the closed BETA - NO PGI STAFF around.
I heard of "one" evening where Chris was playing FP with some crazy german Dudes but that was all!

Also i heard of that PGI once participated in the MRBC League - loosing all but one game against also a german Unit ( name and shame - so i will not call out that one unit but the SpaceCaptain will tell you the Story - if you ask "politly")

Balance was somehow good the last month i also heard - as long as you call out any balance ( premade vs premade ).

Keep that in Mind and now once again - why do we need any Nerf at all?

Are you aggressively agreeing with me? I have played plenty of faction, but I don't anymore because the Clans seem to lose 90% of games. I stick to QP because while IS mechs are only slightly better than Clan mechs, multiplying that difference by 48 absolutely breaks the game

I agree with literally everything you have said... and have continued to restate that in every post I've made on this thread. Nerfing clan lasers will not help the game.

[Noguchi-san]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 June 2018 - 05:47 PM, said:

um just so you know, Chris plays MWO allot, some his PGI account, but much more so on his Alt,

Alternative Fakts! Chris got an Alt Account? So am i got an Alt Account! ( Alternative Fakts )
How low have we ( humanity ) sunken?

If it be the truth - bring in numbers and Names - maybe then i can understand his hate about clan high alpha!
Maybe i was the one who oneshooted him in my Hellbringer ( the only laser Vomit Mech i got ( 300 Matches got me the possablilty to skill 6 Mechs to 91 Skill Points ( wow i got 13 Mechs but 7 of them with less than 10 skill points ( the grind is real )))).

Edited by Noguchi-san, 28 June 2018 - 06:05 PM.

[Tesunie]

A Headless Chicken, on 27 June 2018 - 10:21 PM, said:

And so, why would I run a sustained build with rapid fire weapons which cannot replenish CPU fast enough and just use burst damage weapons? You explained the system to me but you are not showing me that it achieves balance. Who would then boat weapons? Who would fully utilize all the hardpoints from a 'Mech? If everyone has shake, what's preventing my 94 alpha + shake peeking from being superior to a sustained DPS AC boat shaking and still being unable to fire on me at all?

Your suggestion can and will change the meta, and you are just giving players more things to complicate the game which I honestly don't think we need, given how not everyone can even comprehend basic mechanics right now.

Sustain fire weapons would have a reduced draw on the CPU (and recall that the numbers I had provided was only a placeholder). For example, an AC2 (rapid fire DPS weapon) might only take 1 CPU to fire, or even less (as I doubt 10 would be the cap for CPU). As an example I'll work off much of my older numbers.

Example: AC2.
You shoot your AC2, consuming 1 CPU per shot. We'll just say it shoots once every second. As you regain 10 CPU every 5 seconds, you regain 2 CPU every second. So, you can walk and shoot indefinitely with a single AC2. Full run? You'll "run out of CPU" after ten seconds of continuous running and shooting before you even start to see it "bloom".

Have two AC2s with above numbers? That's 2 CPU every second of shooting. Standing still, infinite shooting no problem. Walking? After walking and shooting for ten seconds, you'll start to see it drift a little. After running and shooting for five seconds, you'll start to see the drift/bloom.

Three AC2s? Etc.


The CPU consumption could vary based upon the weapon in question. More sustained DPS styled weapons would have a low CPU draw. A higher damage "alpha" weapon would have a higher CPU drain.

Also, to consider, for the most part the "bloom" should only be spreading the shots a little bit, more than "forcing a miss". That is, unless you really start pressing the CPU to the extreme, which may end up with a "bloom" so large that your shots just go wide (but the shear number of them will most likely land something on target).

My concept is mostly a direct replacement for GH. Instead of penalizing players with extra heat, I think less accuracy would be a better way to keep builds viable, without them being OP. Want to do the Dual AC20? My concept has that covered, it just might be less accurate, but you can do it. Boat nothing but MLs (stock Nova)? Sure. Shoot them all off at once and you might just make a wall of lasers. Even conical stock builds would be perfectly viable, such as the Awesome. Right now, you can't really do the triple PPC Awesome. With the Fire Control system in place, you could. It would be viable, though you may suffer from reduced accuracy for shooting too many PPCs all at once. (This system could even reward mounting weapons on "low hanging arms". This very same arms that are often used only for shielding at the moment.)


Also do consider, I'm not even saying this is going to solve all our problems, and I'm only glossing over the idea in my head. I do not mind if you don't like it and disagree with it. I don't expect everyone to love every idea everyone else presents. We each have our own opinion. I would love feedback and concerns for the concept, of course. Maybe you have your own idea. If so, please present it. I'd love to hear it (and maybe love it, or maybe hate it, or maybe love to hate it ). (If you already posted an idea/concept, I missed it. If so, link/repost?)

[Noguchi-san]

@Tetsunie - you should rethink and take the clan side also in your consideration. Your way of thinking is so one sided!

[Tesunie]

Mystere, on 27 June 2018 - 10:22 PM, said:

What happens when you just fired your weapons and someone suddenly steps into your line of fire? How does the game resolve such an occurrence?

With that question in mind, think of the following scenarios in a convergence-on-lock system:

• you have weapons lock
  
• you do not have weapons lock

Is there a difference as far calculating where the "intruder" gets hit?



As I mentioned earlier, most if not all of the elements to get this done are already in the game.

In this example, it will be just as HSR-friendly as everything else that already exists.

PGI did try a version of that, but it reduced damage if you shot at someone outside optimum range if you didn't have that target lock...

I don't think "lock convergence" would necessarily be good. Wouldn't object to giving it a try, but with Stealth armor around and already kinda wonky locking system... (I've had times where I could see most of my target, but I could not get a lock on them. No ECM nor Stealth armor was involved...)

[Andi Nagasia]

Noguchi-san, on 28 June 2018 - 06:05 PM, said:

Alternative Fakts! Chris got an Alt Account? So am i got an Alt Account! ( Alternative Fakts )
How low have we ( humanity ) sunken?

If it be the truth - bring in numbers and Names - maybe then i can understand his hate about clan high alpha!
Maybe i was the one who oneshooted him in my Hellbringer ( the only laser Vomit Mech i got ( 300 Matches got me the possablilty to skill 6 Mechs to 91 Skill Points ( wow i got 13 Mechs but 7 of them with less than 10 skill points ( the grind is real )))).

ok, so you dont think people have alt Accounts? even PGI staff?
Chris has said many times he was playing MWO before coming to work for PGI,
do you think they just converted his old account to a Dev Account and changed its name?


bring numbers and names? im abit confused about what your getting at,
ive been playing MWO for years and even i think Clan can use -1Damage to all its lasers
(as well as reducing their Heat and Cooldown to keep them balanced)


i dont see what you mean by the Grind, the MWO grind isnt as bad as you seem to think,
many other games have much much more grind to get characters/units to max level,
-
based on the numbers you put forth(300Matchs)(6Skilled Mechs)
(6 x 91 = 546skill points needed)(546 x 800 = 436800exp needed)(436800 / 300 = 1456exp/match)
your pulling 1400 exp per match, which is about average, if not slightly above average,
-
i usually get 400(bad game) and 2000(good game), about 1200-1300Average,


also to level a mech from 0-max in MWO with a 1300exp/match average will take 56Matches,
at 10min a match, thats about 9.5 hours, so maybe a week of play, if that(probably less)


also stats and skill dont denote a louder voice in balance discussions, nore should they,
you have to balance a game across all levels, you cant just balance by the top, nore can you from the bottom,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 28 June 2018 - 06:24 PM.

[Noguchi-san]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 June 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

...

also stats and skill dont denote a louder voice in balance discussions, nore should they,
you have to balance a game across all levels, you cant just balance by the top, nore can you from the bottom,

...

And still PGI is balancing from the bottom by killing complete play styles ( like others have mentioned! )
Yeah with my 300 Matches i am maybe not in the right position to call out anything but i did good so far i guess!

Still 7 Mechs skilled to max in 3 Month is a "hard grind" and i also play different games where i went through in 1 - 2 weeks.
MWO is such a great game - it got me fixed ( i played for 3 month and only managed to skill out 7 Mechs ( keep that in Mind )).

Balance was great ( friends of mine told me ) but has switched to the favour of IS the last month and still PGI is about to nerf Clan even more - that is what i and my friends simply cannot understand - so a lot of good pilots also cannot understand.

And what about the other solution brought by pilots? Why not test that on the PTS? Maybe this will bring the desired balance?
A lot of games out there where the commutiy got the better solution at all - PGI cannot lost anything by testing this other solution - just win!

Edited by Noguchi-san, 28 June 2018 - 06:34 PM.

[Conner Ward]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 June 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

ok, so you dont think people have alt Accounts? even PGI staff?
Chris has said many times he was playing MWO before coming to work for PGI,
do you think they just converted his old account to a Dev Account and changed its name?


bring numbers and names? im abit confused about what your getting at,
ive been playing MWO for years and even i think Clan can use -1Damage to all its lasers
(as well as reducing their Heat and Cooldown to keep them balanced)

No, if you reduce Clan laser cooldown even more and reduce the damage, then Clan lasers would be completely inferior to IS. The only way this suggestion could be even close to reasonable is if the heat and burn time for Clan lasers is reduced significantly. Aside from a very few instances, I am killed more often by IS SRM alphas, or VERY low heat IS lasers, or IS lights with VERY generous durability quriks and VERY broken hitboxes. Not to mention how broken most MGs are (Clan and IS).

The best solution is to either allow mixed tech, or remove Clans from the game entirely.

Edited by Conner Ward, 28 June 2018 - 06:41 PM.

[SaltiestRaccoon]

Conner Ward, on 28 June 2018 - 06:41 PM, said:

No, if you reduce Clan laser cooldown even more and reduce the damage, then Clan lasers would be completely inferior to IS. The only way this suggestion could be even close to reasonable is if the heat and burn time for Clan lasers is reduced significantly. Aside from a very few instances, I am killed more often by IS SRM alphas, or VERY low heat IS lasers, or IS lights with VERY generous durability quriks and VERY broken hitboxes. Not to mention how broken most MGs are (Clan and IS).

The best solution is to either allow mixed tech, or remove Clans from the game entirely.

Mixed tech seems like an elegant solution to me too. It's supposed to be 3057. Inner Sphere salvage and Clan isorla should definitely be available if desired. Of course that would have to come with a significant buff to all Clan mechs since IS could mount Clan weapons and just be 'Clan but better.'