The problem is that Clans were Nerfed from the get-go and the only reason Stars could take out two lances in TT is because the Clan mechs were far more powerful.
well the most powerful weapon in the Clan arsenal could be considered the C-ERML,
at Clan release the C-ERML Stats were,
Weapon......Damage....Heat....Range....Cooldown...Duration...
C-ERML...........7.............5.........450...........3.0............1.25.......
the Damage, the Heat, the Range, are all Lore Levels, it even had a Max Range out to 900m,
at release the C-ERML was God Teir, and was the Primary Source of much Rage,
well the most powerful weapon in the Clan arsenal could be considered the C-ERML,
at Clan release the C-ERML Stats were,
Weapon......Damage....Heat....Range....Cooldown...Duration...
C-ERML...........7.............5.........450...........3.0............1.25.......
the Damage, the Heat, the Range, are all Lore Levels, it even had a Max Range out to 900m,
at release the C-ERML was God Teir, and was the Primary Source of much Rage,
The only reason people raged about it is because Clans were exclusive to people who pre-ordered and the ones raging were the people who either couldn't or chose not to buy them. Not making all Mechs available for MC and Cbills and only keeping the (S) variants cash only, is part of the problem that keeps leading to this cycle of Nerfing in response to forum and social media crying.
Also, currently the C-ERML is probably the only Clan weapon in the game now that is not Nerfed so much that it is inferior to IS weapon equivalents and these propose changes will not create "balance", but will just make Clans all around inferior to IS.
well the most powerful weapon in the Clan arsenal could be considered the C-ERML,
at Clan release the C-ERML Stats were,
Weapon......Damage....Heat....Range....Cooldown...Duration...
C-ERML...........7.............5.........450...........3.0............1.25.......
the Damage, the Heat, the Range, are all Lore Levels, it even had a Max Range out to 900m,
at release the C-ERML was God Teir, and was the Primary Source of much Rage,
Problem is in the fact Max range was way beyond what Max range has always been before in other Mechwarrior titles. Max range in those games cERML was always 450((YX)(Y being Number of hexs, X the size of a hex which is 30 meters), outside of that you didn't connect. With these extended ranges on all weapons it is very much possible to deal significant damage to a target just outside of max range,or to just bubbling the paint. But this is only part of the current issue, and very minor atm.
I'm am not for bringing all of the table top values in as that is clearly insane. What I am for is bringing the values that do make sense with in a simulation/fps that is MW:O. Which is why when I pull values I don't pull from Table Top, I pull from Mechwarrior 3 with some from Mechwarrior 4, as the Devs of those games did a good job of figuring what would translate well to their pc game. I wonder how many people that play MW:O now, have played at least MW3 or MW4? If they have they would likely see where some things from those games could easily be translated over to here for balance.
For the record, my Fire Control system would be a replacement for the GH system. At the loss of accuracy, suddenly builds that are deemed non-viable due to GH and being too hot could suddenly be used again. They wouldn't be "as effective" because of potential spread of weapons fire (which shouldn't make it all miss, but rather just spread and have most of it just hit different locations, with some missing maybe), but it wouldn't be suicide to try them. For example... Stock Nova Prime... New players would no longer alpha once and POP. It would be alpha once, be hot, and you just made an impressive light show with a wall of laser light in front of you.
tl;dr, all we were trying to say is simple, please learn the game before trying to fix the game, because from simple numbers to basic engagements, you have a mass of misconceptions which skew your perceptions of combat and loadouts. This is not acceptable for someone trying to add to or change the features of the game because it implies that you do not know the game to start.
In comparison you have a bunch of people who play at every level from casual to comp, know how to engage on paper and in action who are constantly being ignored (cough community balance spreadsheet) by a bunch of know-it-all devs who need a reality check.
I'll reiterate this because I think it's still a good idea -
remove/dramatically reduce crosshair shake for 1 HGauss. It's already huge, requires a STD and has short range. Currently you don't really see 1 HGauss builds which makes the weapon really strong -- on 3 mechs who can take 2 of them. That's not a good balance design.
I'll reiterate this because I think it's still a good idea -
remove/dramatically reduce crosshair shake for 1 HGauss. It's already huge, requires a STD and has short range. Currently you don't really see 1 HGauss builds which makes the weapon really strong -- on 3 mechs who can take 2 of them. That's not a good balance design.
The crosshair shake for HG is pretty dumb, no other Gauss rifle has even the slightest shake. Also the range is very short for the HG, even when you have the full 15% range quirks and even if you manage to squeeze a targeting computer on the Mech, so it is easy to stay out of the effective range. Yes, I know that everyone likes to brawl, but people need to learn some other tactics, because you can not win by brawling in every situation.
Two HGauss is really strong. Even with the recoil the 2xhgauss mechs are pretty much best in class. No heat, 50pt PPFLD with super high velocity (accuracy).
Given the myriad of ways available to turn the HGauss into **** I'm very much okay with the recoil.
If Russ and the gang really wants to get rid of clan mechs, just delete them, be done with it, and give us our money back.
IS has more armor, more durability and heavy gauss. The only way clan competes is with range and and the now fleeting mobility. Clans have less armor, mutli-crap-round ACs and longer duration lasers. Throw all this into the close quarters invasion maps and watch one wave of Annihilators wipe out the first two waves of clan heavies and one wave of Assassins to mop up the rest.
For the love of god sit down and play the game, or actually watch 50+ matches of group queue and 50+ matches of solo queue to see what is actually playing out on the battlefield and put the damn spreadsheets to rest.
A Headless Chicken, on 29 June 2018 - 08:27 PM, said:
tl;dr, all we were trying to say is simple, please learn the game before trying to fix the game, because from simple numbers to basic engagements, you have a mass of misconceptions which skew your perceptions of combat and loadouts. This is not acceptable for someone trying to add to or change the features of the game because it implies that you do not know the game to start.
In comparison you have a bunch of people who play at every level from casual to comp, know how to engage on paper and in action who are constantly being ignored (cough community balance spreadsheet) by a bunch of know-it-all devs who need a reality check.
Jump shooting is dead.
Remember that you said that.
I managed to jump shoot with many mechs without problem. It might not be "the meta", but not too long ago wasn'e the dual ERPPC Summoner and Hunchback IICs a thing? I must just be imagining it of course.
I'm wondering as to whom actually does know game mechanics and features, and who doesn't here...
But remember, jump shooting is dead. (Haven't even touched your comment about brawling being dead...)
Anyone ever wondered why the lasers are the only Clan weapons that actually have more damage than their IS counterpart?
Ballistics and Missiles are just smaller and lighter (missiles by up to 50% lighter AND smaller! ), but energy weapons are also stronger ON TOP.
I think that this is the biggest reason that cERML boating is so efficient compared to other weapons and compared to IS mechs.
Even with same 5dmg, the CERML would have higher range.
The CERLL, LP and ERPPC would then be the only enery weapon that are also smaller and lighter than their IS counterparts.
Only the Heavy lasers - as designed to be 2 IS lasers in one - would be again much better than what the IS have.
With that said, I think it's not too far to expect a reduction in dmg for med/large lasers to get max 1 dmg advantage over the IS lasers.
e.g. CERML from 7DMG down to 6DMG
To complement the dmg reduction, I would only reduce the cooldown a bit, also reduce heat but increase beam duration.
The lower cd and heat help builds with less hardpoints while the long duration keep the idea of Clans up. Clan warriors are elite, so they can be more efficient with weapon handling.
Using the Meds as baseline example for comaring the different types:
- CHML 10dmg, 8 heat, 5.5s cd, 270m/540m range/maxrange, 1.7s duration
- CERML 6dmg, 5 heat, 4s cd, 400m/600m range/maxrange, 1.6s duration
- ERML 5dmg, 4.2 heat, 3.5s cd, 360m/720m range/maxrange, 1.4s duration
- ML 5dmg, 3 heat, 3s cd, 270m/540m range/maxrange, 1.2s duration
with Pulses as DPS weapon that have half the duration and roughly half the dmg and heat, but only 1/3rd of the CD:
- CMP 2.8dmg, 2 heat, 1.1s cd, 330m/561m range/maxrange, 0.7s duration
- MP 2.8dmg, 1.6 heat, 1s cd, 220m/440m range/maxrange, 0.6s duration
Clan warriors are elite, so they can be more efficient with weapon handling.
I will make mention that, in this game, we aren't actually "Clan" warriors. I don't think it's wise to try and provide balance reasons based upon Clan warriors being better, making it more difficult for people using Clan mechs to use those weapons.
If this was lore, I could agree with you. As it isn't, and no one here are actually true Clan Warriors...
I will make mention that, in this game, we aren't actually "Clan" warriors. I don't think it's wise to try and provide balance reasons based upon Clan warriors being better, making it more difficult for people using Clan mechs to use those weapons.
If this was lore, I could agree with you. As it isn't, and no one here are actually true Clan Warriors...
Ofc, we are all freeborn.
This line is mathing the spirit/reason why the Clans have the different weapon stats and are not just 100% upgrades without any downside.
Having more possible damage, but need to be more skilled, would still give a reason to have higher damage and range on the Clan weapons.
Without the highest skill, the average damage would be similar (e.g. hitting with the same amount of the beam, no matter if the full duration is 1.2 or 1.4s).
And if you are skilled enough, you can land more of the beam where you want to.
It will keep the Clan idea and the difference of the techs in the game and also give the competitive crowd something to train and get better with than the average gamer.
With only a small difference (see stats above), the gap of the tech is not multiplying the skill difference as much as it is now.
e.g.
6 dmg cERML x 100% skill = 600 vs 7dmg cERMC x 100% skill = 700 dmg
compared to average pugger with maybe 50% skill
6 dmg cERML x 50% skill = 300 vs 7dmg cERMC x 50% skill = 350 dmg
so the gap would be now only 300 (6dmg) rather than 350 (7dmg), if you could measure it that way.
Just merge the weapons, get rid the duplicates, and remove this IS/Clan identity. There is no lore in MWO anyway so who cares.
I care, because I followed MWO and bought my founder's pack because it was supposed to be "A BATTLETECH GAME" (yes I know it does not say that anymore, but that is what I was sold on). Mixed tech is lore accurate in this time period and some of the Houses had Clan Mechs in their arsenals (like the Lyran Alliance). If Mixed tech is in the game, it should just be made harder and more costly for the opposite faction to put on their Mechs. Mixed tech was in MW4, I remember seeing Annihilators with Clan ER-PPCs.
Also, if this makes some weapons obsolete, then who cares? Things in real life go obsolete all the time. The obsolete stuff should just be made cheaper and easier to get, or you can just sell the stuff, like most of us sold our huge piles of SHS. It is stupid to keep buffing obsolete stuff to keep it current, people should just be able to upgrade to the latest and best equipment. IS could install Clan lasers and Clans could get RACs and MRMs. Then PGI could remove all buffs and nerfs and use TT values for all weapons and IS Mechs would then have to have their buffs and nerfs reduced to bring them in line with Clans.
The only problem would be then, if PGI added the Word of Blake tech to the game, and then we would see the cry / nerf / cry / nerf cycle all over again, unless WOB tech is made buyable by anyone.
I care, because I followed MWO and bought my founder's pack because it was supposed to be "A BATTLETECH GAME" (yes I know it does not say that anymore, but that is what I was sold on). Mixed tech is lore accurate in this time and some of the Houses had Clan Mechs in their arsenals (like the Lyran Alliance). If Mixed tech is in the game, it should just be made harder and more costly for the opposite faction to put on their Mechs. Mixed tech was in MW4, I remember seeing Annihilators with Clan ER-PPCs.
Im all for it but it becomes no deferent than what I asked for.
So burst damage is a DPS build? If you're going to say that everything that isn't PPFLD/hitscan at long range is a DPS build than... okay I guess? If that's how you're defining it than yes, anything that doesn't allow you to effectively play PPFLD/hitscan at long range favors DPS. Which has always been the case and has nothing to do with TTK but instead where/how a weapon setup works.
Double HGauss doesn't really poke, the 'Mechs it runs on are not shaped right or fast enough for that. Instead, it pushes (or receives a push). It's 50 damage every ~5.5 seconds after modest cool-down plus whatever lasers it can sustain, and that puts its DPS into the double-digits easily, and it can keep that up for any reasonable length push window. The double HGauss alone flirt with 10 DPS and are heatless where dakka and SRMs and lasers are not; it can deal out 50 damage at a time indefinitely where most 'Mechs can only do it for 11 seconds.
So, yes, you bet your arse that it's DPS.
The Gauss Hammer is much the same as HGauss; it can trade well, but you don't take it when you can reliably run a WHM-6D instead. You take it when you want the sustained DPS from the Gauss with the expectation that it will give you an edge against your hotter-running opposition for the weight. AKA, you are hoping to be able to use the heat-edge to out-DPS the OpFor during a push, so, yes, a DPS build.
My Flea build can fire basically indefinitely. I can keep pressure up at 200 meters firing 28.25 damage at intervals smaller than 3 seconds and not have to worry too much about heat. Because it's such a small alpha, I have to keep at it to get results. So yes, also DPS.
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Are you calling anything that involves at any point closing with the enemy 'favoring pushing'?
Are you implying that any application of firepower that facilitates closing with the enemy and compromising his position could be anything other than pushing?
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Because the game right now absolutely does NOT favor pushing - not until you've been winning trades for a bit. You absolutely don't want to push 500,600m into an enemy who's poking you or you'll lose the brawl when you get there. Nobody does that; even KCom switched from 12 brawling mechs to 8 brawling mechs and 4 range mechs and that's in FW where you've got respawns.
Spoiler
If you are switching your ERLL builds down from 6 to 5 to fit more DHS, you are doing it to get more DPS because you are, in fact, pushing.
If you are bringing UAC/2 to full-expose as a team and delete 'Mechs from 800-1000 meters while moving across open terrain, you are pushing.
If you are an overwatch Black Knight with LPLs and MedLas covering an advance of dakka and SRM brawlers on Viridian Bog, you are still pushing.
What part of this progression escapes you? If you are closing on the enemy or actively putting down an attempt to do so, you are in fact pushing. There is no way to argue around it because that is literally what you are doing. I've watched plenty of FP streams with EVIL, G0ON, MS, etc. I play plenty of QP. Trading as a phase doesn't really happen any more unless it's a snow map or the team f*cks up and gets cold feet mid-push. Instead, what always happens is essentially brawl-overwatch; you have some 'Mechs providing cover at-range (often slowly moving up themselves) while the rest make a more aggressive play. This is not trading, and those back-line range builds are typically skewed for sustained DPS over alpha size.
And in QP, there is really no trading at all any more. The range 'Mechs get some early shots in and then it's full push. At that point, if the high-alpha ranged builds do well it's because they were farming damage from the side-lines and getting ignored.
It's all boring, predictable tripe.
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Which isn't a negative. However if your argument is that poke/trade only works on maps that are poke/trade friendly are you saying that's a flaw? I'm just confused over your logic here. Increasing TTK *a bit* absolutely does allow people to cross more distance before they go down but it just makes their failure when they arrive more certain. We're talking about increasing TTK overall, for everyone. Not just brawlers. If TTK is longer then hit/fade still works just as well.
Spoiler
Did you slow down the 'Mechs to go along with the lower alphas? No? So I'm running the same speeds toward smaller alphas with the same gaps and the same heat? Then it does not work "just as well." Everybody ditches alphas for something that can provide better sustained output to put down the maniacs running toward them...kind of like they are already doing.
You cannot talk about "increasing TTK overall, for everyone." Why not? Because you have failed to define what your measure of "TTK overall, for everyone is". Is it the mean? The median? The mode? Ton for ton? What? You have no f*cking idea what you mean by that and to save you some time typing up a detailed reply, I'll provide you the fundamental truth about it: you cannot make a single change that has this nebulous desired effect. Any change you make impacts everything in a heterogeneous manner. You punch the Clan alphas, you create a knock-on effect that requires re-tuning everything else.
In this case, the entire reason for alphas is short TTK. If they do not provide short TTK, they have no reason to exist, with "short" being relative to the killing power of builds on similar weight 'Mechs in a similar range bracket. Provided my aim is true, if I can't reliably flay your armor off in a single shot from my much hotter LPL+MPL against your cool-running SRM24, I should no longer take that laser boat because I'm heat-capped after two blasts and you are not and it is not rewarding my aiming abilities sufficiently. Extrapolate to longer ranges.
I am not interested in enabling stand-up, slug-out matches. That's just stupid play.
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Reducing Clan laservomit firepower affects brawling every bit as much as range trading. Giving double-gauss of any sort (save maybe IS gauss, just because it sucks so much) a small recoil is more about bringing CGauss into parity with IS Gauss. I'd say give it a health buff and then a tiny cooldown reduction to compensate. This helps it still control lanes and makes 1gauss+energy builds still viable at their job even after the change to clasers.
Spoiler
1. The recoil is functionally useless, it just means Gauss follows lasers instead of precedes them. GGclose.
2. Adding faster cool-down...you are suggesting a DPS buff to make the gun stronger in a DPS role; tell me again how DPS isn't already dominant?
3. Clan vomit is already not decisively superior to IS vomit when shooting across tech lines until you get to Assaults; you might say it is, but the results of units comparable to yours fighting against each other in FP say otherwise. The issue is, and has always been, that IS vomit is too hot for what it can do rather than the damage itself. There is an opportunity here to make IS about pressure play while Clans are about alpha play, but PGI has refused to let it go that way for two years now.
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However increasing TTK overall, for everyone, not just brawl/DPS builds doesn't seriously hurt trade builds. It certainly brings the two a bit closer but any and all setups that involve max damage for min exposure are always going to be idea on any map/mode that lets you exploit that. That's always been a part of game balance and always will be. TTK favoring skill however is absolutely true and trade meta is always going to have a higher skill cap.
Spoiler
You keep saying it doesn't, but it f*cking does because when you don't have to worry about very high damage rates, you are more able to close, stand there, and slug it out. Are you planning on nerfing the brawl/DPS builds at the same time you nerf the alpha builds? No? Then all you are doing is raising the outliers that make mean TTK between any two given 'Mechs of similar weight seem lower than it really is, outliers which are required for the high-alpha, high-heat builds to be useful.
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That you can't force a trade standoff at 400m on every map isn't a balance issue, it's a goal. You still want to be able to punish someone bad enough on the approach that he's going to lose anyway if he's not smart and careful but if you think dialing clan lasers damage back at the same time as reducing burn time and heat is going to eliminate that as viable I can't agree with you.
Spoiler
Is it a goal? Should every map that isn't Alpine, Polar, or Grim predictably involve a handful of medium-alpha 'Mechs offering initial covering fire while every other schmuck rushes in with DPS to club the enemy's own medium-alpha overwatch? You think that's great? You think that's an improvement? Shall I just take all of my Clan Energy Lights and put them into storage because they are simply uncompetitive with IS energy Lights and Clan MGs? Should I shelve my now-60 damage MAD-IIC because I can get the same 60 out of a double-tap from an MCII-B and then some at better ranges and with less heat? Do you like that?
Regardless, alpha builds already do not force a trading stand-off on any map that isn't 700 meters, because they already don't have the output. I'm not seeing a need to change things.
MischiefSC, on 29 June 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:
So you've hit on the crux of where I would like to see the proposed balance changes going and what I'm talking about with increased TTK not hurting poke builds.
If CLasers get a damage reduction but also reduced burn time, cooldown and heat the trade/burst builds are more dangerous/effective up close than they are currently. This impacts all the CLaser DPS builds as well but for them it's a straight nerf, however as range isn't being dialed back it's less of a negative to poke/trade builds.
Spoiler
Remember what I said above about knock-on effects?
You don't have a whole lot of wiggle room when it comes to duration with Clan lasers. You have about a single tenth of a second you can reduce the cERML by, for example, or you make the duration delta functionally pointless. The DPS on the cERML is already unfairly higher than the DPS on the isERML, so you already don't have any wiggle room on the cool-down. Heat, too, both the IS and Clan ERML have the same damage-to-heat, which is currently giving the Clans an edge due to the massed DHS advantage and you again don't have any wiggle room.
You cannot make this one single change and call it good, because I can promise you it will be garbage without a wholesale adjustment. I am not convinced PGI either knows or believes this to be the case, but it is.
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So while your trade can't absolutely kill someone before he closes he's doing less damage after he closes and you're doing more (because of higher DPS) than you were before. So yes; it's easier to close but doing so after you've been effectively poked just ensures your failure when you do close.
Spoiler
That's not what's going to happen. Unless they are idiots or have overwhelming DPS advantage, closing 'Mechs will use cover. You've reduced the amount of damage I can impart in the windows between cover, ergo he arrives less damaged.
You didn't change the speed at which 'Mechs move, nor did you change the base amount of armor they have. Nor have you nerfed the durability bonuses on Mechs, and I know this because you already think TTK is too short with the existing durability bonuses.
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As to longer TTK.... well, as I said. MWO has an insanely short TTK compared to other shooters. You can be completely removed from the match within a couple of seconds of encountering the enemy. MWO does with armor/structure/health but no respawns other games do by low health/armor but respawns. Matches can still be turned on a single mistake. Reducing CLaser damage doesn't suddenly mean that trading isn't the most effective way to play unless the map is pure brawl.
Spoiler
I think you need to go and play some other shooters, because that, sir, is a very, very wrong statement both absolutely and in concept. Other shooters have much shorter raw TTK, it only goes up because the two players know that, have very high agility, and usually choose to break off rather than risk a confrontation they are not sure they can win. That is fundamentally different from MWO, where most 'Mechs do not have agility and do not have the option to break-off at-will.
What you are advocating in this thread is increased TTK through brute force rather than TTK through skill-based mechanics. I am and will remain intolerant to it.
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If the balance changes make trading non-viable or even significantly less viable compared to pushing than it's a bad change and that's not what I'm advocating. Right now it absolutely does favor trading and honestly that's probably for the best though getting that line a bit closer wouldn't be terrible overall.
Spoiler
It does not "absolutely" favor trading. If it did, you in KCom wouldn't ever bother closing with the enemy except to finish off the last survivors in a given match. But that's clearly not the case, now, is it?
They are already gone though. First step is to let go.
Having a faction flag, symbol and paint jobs has nothing to do with whether a Mech is OP or not, so I see no reason to remove it. Also, if I have said before, if the little BATTLETECH lore there is in MWO is removed, then I will leave the game for good.
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Ed Steele, on 29 June 2018 - 05:36 PM, said:
